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Old 10-09-2010, 01:12 PM   #61
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

"imagine many subjects that will spur more heated debate than anchoring or anchoring systems. "

Single Vs Twin?

Gas Vs Diesel?
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:10 PM   #62
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Jeez, why am I always being confused with Marin? Guess I'll have to keep my comments shorter - that might help.
And Tom, (see I remember who you are), you still did not ansewer my question.* If not using mild steel, or aluminium, or 316 stainless, what the heck grade of metal will you use which is obtainable to us mere mortal, non-metallurgical types...?

-- Edited by Peter B on Saturday 9th of October 2010 09:13:49 PM
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:41 AM   #63
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

PeterB -- Any chain or rigging supply store of note can get you an alloy shackle. Or go to the 1st Chain Supply store website and order it. All the specs are on their website listed on charts for any chain or shackle you may need for choosing the right stuff from your local store. Of note, your gypsy will govern the chain and the chain dictate the shackle pin size.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Sunday 10th of October 2010 09:42:46 AM
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:48 AM   #64
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin* I'm so sorry for attributing Peter's confusions to you. I must be more careful ---- now for that Sunday honey do list while ogling Brett's girlfriend on NFL Today. Do you think she was passed over by Tiger?
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:15 PM   #65
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Sorry, but you're asking the wrong guy. My interest in football (US football) is on the list just below my interest in banana slugs.* So when it comes to team sports, I'm the wrong person to ask about anything.

I enjoy a game of baseball although I don't go out of my way to watch one, and I find football (the rest of the world's football aka soccer) intriguing although I have almost zero understanding of the rules. I think cricket is proably a lot of fun to play, but it seems absolute death to have to watch it.* I used to run camera on televised basketball games at the college level and that was fun--- I enjoyed both the game and the challenge of running camera on one..* Pro-basketball has turned into a sort of prison sport judging by most of the players, so the NBA leaves me cold.

To me any game where you have special teams for everything including taking a pee is not a game.* I think players need to play the whole game, not just some super-specialized aspect of it. So for that reason alone I don't even really regard US football as being a sport.
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:02 PM   #66
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Man I just love having a swivel in my anchor chain.
Just as the anchor is about to enter the bow roller it gives a nice little twist and over she goes right side up every time.
Never have an anchor and chain with out one.
Over size anchor, oversize chain and the swivel will be ok, weakest link maybe but still stronger than required.
benn
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:34 PM   #67
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I have thought about a swivel on Volunteer.. but I had not seen one in person that I thought was up to the task until I got a tour on Delfin, they have by far the coolest.. massive Stainless steel swivel I have ever seen.* The last time the Bruce ( dont even think about giving me crap over my Bruce ) came up backwards and smacked the hull when it flipped has convinced me to give a swivel a try........now if I can just remember the brand!
HOLLYWOOD
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:50 PM   #68
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Larry M wrote:

*
[img]download.spark?ID=805373&aBID=115492[/img]


Here's the picture of the swivel failure.
FWIW this is a KONG swivel, manufactured in Italy. Just found this out in the process of looking up something else.

*
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:02 PM   #69
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
hollywood8118 wrote:

they have by far the coolest.. massive Stainless steel swivel I have ever seen.
Here is the best anchor swivel I have seen.* It's called a WASI Powerball http://www.swisstech-america.com/powerball.html** I have no experience with this unit but of all the swivels I have seen illustrated this is the only one that actually makes sense to me because there is no swivel pin in its design.* They are hellaciously expensive but if someone held a gun to my head and said I'd have to put a swivel in our anchor rode or they'd pull the trigger, this is the only one I'd go with.

Is this what you were thinking of?



-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 10th of October 2010 10:05:16 PM
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Old 10-11-2010, 12:02 AM   #70
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I wonder why approved by Lloyds of Germany and not Lloyds of London.

Benn
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Old 10-11-2010, 09:03 PM   #71
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Some have suggested here that a swivel is a weak link in the anchor rode. *I suppose that depends on the equipment. *If you are fond of installing undersized or substandard equipment, I suppose it might be true. *Use the right equipment, and the comment would not be true. *I use 1/2" G4 chain and a SunCor swivel with 3/4" pins and a 25,000 pound breaking point. *Weak link? *Not so much. *Here's a link to the swivel I use, which cost around $200.

http://www.suncorstainless.com/anchor/S0190-00.jpg
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Old 10-11-2010, 10:54 PM   #72
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

I use 1/2" G4 chain and a SunCor swivel with 3/4" pins and a 25,000 pound breaking point.
Install it incorrectly, however, in such a way that it cannot pivot to line up with the rode no matter which way the rode is angling in to the anchor and I'll guarantee you that the sideload shear strength of the swivel pin is a lot less than 25,000 pounds.* By which I mean the pin or stud that the two halves rotate around, not the horizontal pins at each end that fasten to the anchor and rode.* That center swivel pin is the weak component in every swivel if it's subjected to side loads except the WASI Powerball, which doesn't have a swivel pin.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 11th of October 2010 10:59:15 PM
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:44 AM   #73
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin, if you look at the design in the link you'll see there is no side swivel, so your point is incorrect.* The only loads possible are parallel to the line of the rode, which is why this is the design I chose to solve the problem the original poster described.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:08 AM   #74
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

This whole thread is a puzzle for me.

An anchor with the proper sized shackel will hold Da Boat thru the night.

If the rode is twisted SO WHAT????


Sure the "proper" swivel might work , but to what gain?

The loss could easily be the vessel, the gain is???

What am I missing?
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:32 AM   #75
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

FF, if you look at the picture sent with the inital post, you can see that the twisting has created sideloading on the shackle so that the strength is likely reduced, perhaps by a great deal.* I guess there is no point in avoiding this unless not losing your freaking boat has merit.

With a 25,000 # breaking strength, this particular swivel I mentioned would be the last thing on my boat that breaks.

Finally, if you're tied up at the dock all the time, you won't encounter the problem that many people have of needing to swing an anchor 180 degrees with a boat hook so you can bring it home without running it onto the roller unside down.* Having a swivel makes turning 175# of metal around a bit easier.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:42 AM   #76
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

Marin, if you look at the design in the link you'll see there is no side swivel, so your point is incorrect.* The only loads possible are parallel to the line of the rode, which is why this is the design I chose to solve the problem the original poster described.
The design of this swivel has the built-in flaw that Earl Hinz talks about in his book.* The top half swivels against the bottom half using a stud or a pin as the "axle."* But no matter which end you attach to the anchor the swivel will only be able to rotate back and forth in line with the anchor shank.* Unless you attach it correctly with a shackle which will then allow the swivel to "aim" in any direction* relative to the anchor shank.*

But most people--- and I've seen a lot of anchor swivels of the type you have*in our marina--- attach the swivel directly to the anchor.* This prevents it from pivoting to the side.* So if your boat gets off to the side of the anchor, the swivel cannot pivot around to point at it which means the load is not straight through the swivel, which is where your 25,000 pounds of strength is, but is put sideways on the swivel.* The pin or stud that allows the top of the swivel to swivel is designed to take high loads straight through it--- it is not designed to take high shear loads.*

So your boat is pulling*sideways*like mad on the end of the swivel that's attached to the rode while the other end of the swivel is forced to stay lined up with the anchor shank.* All*the load has be held by the "axle" the two halves of the swivel rotate on, but that axle is only strong when the load is going straight down through it.* By connecting the swivel directly to the anchor, the boater is forcing the load to be put sideways on that "axle" every time the boat moves off-line from the anchor shank.

If you've connected your swivel to the anchor with a shackle, then there is no problem--- the entire*swivel can always rotate to line up with the rode and the load no matter where the boat is*in relation to the anchor.* But if you've done what most boaters seem to do with these things, which is attach the swivel directly to the anchor, then you have set up the potential for a swivel failure.* Hinz has photos in his book of a large yacht that is sittting high and dry on a beach due to the failure of a swivel that was attached directly to the anchor in such a way that it could not pivot sideways to stay lined up with the rode.* This put a high side load on the swivel pin or "axle," the pin snapped or sheared, and the boat ended up high and dry on the beach.* Had the swivel been attached to the anchor with a shackle, no side load would have been put on the swivel "axle" and the boat would have stayed put, assuming the anchor didn't drag.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 12th of October 2010 11:56:36 AM
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #77
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

FF, if you look at the picture sent with the inital post, you can see that the twisting has created sideloading on the shackle so that the strength is likely reduced, perhaps by a great deal.
If chain "twisting" causes a swivel to break then what is the purpose of a swivel in the first place?* If this is true you make an even better case for not having a swivel than anyone else in this discussion has so far.* A swivel's whole purpose and*design*is to allow the top half of the swivel to swivel relative to the bottom half--- hence the clever name--- when the chain starts to twist.

The reason the swivel in the illustration broke is crystal clear--- excessive side loads were put on it because it could not pivot sideways to line up with the boat and the load.* This is a common and potentially boat-losing mistake made on 90 percent of the boats I see with swivels of this type because the owner connects the "legs" of the swivel directly to the anchor.* It certainly looks nicer than putting a shackle between them, but they've set up the formula for failure by omitting the shackle.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 12th of October 2010 12:05:50 PM
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:24 PM   #78
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin, the 25,000#, according to SunCor is the side load breaking strength.* Straight pull would be greater, so again, this is a non issue since the chain would break (9,600 #) or the front of the boat pull off before the swivel goes.* Again, if you put undersized equipment on your boat, you'll have a problem.* If you don't, you won't, with all respect to Mr. Hinz.

Charles, you make the case well.* While people are worried about the strength of the swivel, they lose sight of the reduction in chain strength when its twisted.* The safest situation is as you suggest.* An OVERSIZE swivel that is a strong, not weak point in the system, preventing a kinked chain from becoming the weak point.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:25 PM   #79
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

This thread got me thinking.* Not always a good thing.

I just measured 2 feet of 3/8" G4 HT, about 20 links.* I then twisted it to see what happens.* I easily twisted the chain 1 complete revolution with no kinking.* If I had to say what is the average amount of road we put out when anchoring it would be ~120 feet.* So that says the boat could rotate/twist 60 times without the*chain kinking?* Does this make any sense?

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Old 10-12-2010, 12:32 PM   #80
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

FF* Here is what you are missing - a well constructed swivel allows big heavy anchors to efficiently and properly enter the "hawse pipe" and lay down as intended with no damage to the hull and no monkeying around with chain and anchor. Works for me. A properly sized shackle likley would too, but as I walk the docks and see all the high end vessels with big gouges on their bow and under their anchor ----. You can still find reference that*a 5th wheel trailer will not work as good as a bumper hitch too.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Tuesday 12th of October 2010 12:33:40 PM
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