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Old 10-06-2010, 06:50 PM   #41
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Swivel!?* Sounds like someone in marketing did a good job convincing people they needed to spend the money on one.* Your horror stories have confirmed my common sense.** OK, here is the threadbare*statement (hold your nose): a chain is no stronger than its weakest link.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:59 PM   #42
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Larry M wrote:

Here's the picture of the swivel failure.*
Well, your photo tells it all.* The swivel is one of those ones that people attach with the "legs" fastened to the anchor shank, which is the wrong way to do it.* As you can see from your photo, the body of the swivel can only pivot back and forth in line with the anchor shank.* So if the boat gets off to the side of the set anchor, the swivel cannot pivot to the side*to line up with the rode.* The strain can then put enough sideways load on the swivel pin or the body of the swivel to snap it.

Had this swivel been attached to the anchor shank with a properly sized shackle, the swivel would have been able to pivot any way that was needed for it to remain lined up with the rode, and no sideways load would have been put on the swivel and it most likely would have held the load unless the swivel itself was of very poor quality.* So based on your photo and knowing no other information, I would say the fault lay with the person who installed the swivel, not with the swivel itself.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 07:05:03 PM
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:21 PM   #43
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall anyone saying *"Gee my anchor rode comes up all twisted up almost every time we use it". Nobody's having trouble so why not huck this useless thing and keep things safe and simple. The way Marin put's it side loads seem to be the problem and that situation is not unusual.

Mark,
No line is stronger than it's weakest inch either.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 10:23:17 PM
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:28 PM   #44
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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nomadwilly wrote:

The way Marin put's it side loads seem to be the problem and that situation is not unusual.
That plus the fact that a swivel adds at least one more threaded pin that can back out unless it's properly safety wired.

*
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:57 AM   #45
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

My understanding of the reason for a swivel was not so much to allow for rotation near the anchor, but rather to prevent twisting of the rode over time swinging with the tide etc, resulting it the chain bunching up and not being able to feed nicely back into the hawse pipe, or jamming the gypsy. I have one on, and have no trouble with it, and it does make it a tad easier to rotate the anchor on the odd occasion it comes up backwards. However, I now have the opposite issue to what Marin just mentioned - of a pin backing out. Mine are now so frozen in, when I went to end for end the chain a few weeks ago, I got no further than stripping out the damn hexagonal Allen Key socket, so there was no way to shift it and remove it - so end of that plan for now. If I get serious abut my end for ending the chain, I'll have to cut the darn swivel off. If so, I'll definitely be trying it without a swivel to compare notes, so watch this space.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:29 PM   #46
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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Peter B wrote:

My understanding of the reason for a swivel was not so much to allow for rotation near the anchor, but rather to prevent twisting of the rode over time swinging with the tide etc, resulting it the chain bunching up and not being able to feed nicely back into the hawse pipe, or jamming the gypsy.
I know that's the theory but I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who's ever had this happen, swivel or no swivel.* Up here with our fickle winds and currents, boats rotate around their anchors (or mooring buoys) almost constantly.* The longest we have ever been anchored in one spot was three days during which I don't know how many times we've been moved completely around the anchor either by shifting winds or the four-times a day current changes.* I'm sure some of the movement cancelled out earlier movement, but between the breeze and the constant current changes the boat was never in the same spot for more than a few minutes.* We use an all-chain rode and we probably had about 150' of it out at these times.* I had removed the swivel we used to use years earlier, but each time when we went to leave the chain came up with narry a twist or kink.* At least not by the time it got to the bow roller--- I have no idea what it looked like on the seabed.

I've talked to people in our marina who we know anchor out a lot--- none of them use a swivel--- and the ones who use all-chain have never mentioned any problems with twisting or kinking.* It may very well be possible--- just about anything's possible when it comes to boating--- but if it is it seems to be an extremely rare occurance, at least in these waters.

*
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:11 AM   #47
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I've always used swivels, installed correctly, and never had a problem. Never had kinks or twists, nor shackle failures. Will always use them.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:35 AM   #48
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Marin wrote:
I know that's the theory but I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who's ever had this happen, swivel or no swivel.*
I remember over on PMM site there was a thread started by someone who was having big troubles with chain kinking and jamming.* Several others chimed in saying they had the same issue on occasion.* It prompted quite a bit of to & fro (that was back in the days when we had quite a few keen types on there), and in the end the upshot solution recommended was to use a swivel, so there you go........
Ralph Yost, if you are watching, You might be able to corroborate that in case my memoy is faulty.

*
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:57 PM   #49
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Hey Marin
Sorry but I'm over 50 now and dont remember as much as when I was young! I dont recall the thread in PMM you refer to !

I am currently using a swivel on my chain rode. It was there when I bought the boat. I have no idea how old it is so I will replace it so I know the relative strength.

I beleive that if the swivel is appropriately chosen to be strong enough, there shouldnt be a problem. Its sort of like choosing wire size for an installation: larger size is better.

I always like to have anchor gear bigger than I "need". I will always use the largest anchor that will work on my boat, the largest chain, etc that will work.* Currently using 3/8" chain with a SuperMaxx anchor
http://tinyurl.com/34dn2w9

Swivel makes sense to me but it has to be ROBUST.
R.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #50
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Ralph--- It was actually PeterB in Australia that recalled the article in PMM, not me. I've never read PMM other than a few articles in old copies Carey gave me.

I don't think swivels are evil. If they are installed in such a way that they cannot pivot in all directions to line up with the rode then they can break at an inopportune time.* Likewise if they are too small or poorly made.* But if they're made right and installed right there's no reason they can't remain trouble free.* We don't use one anymore because it proved to be unnecessary and we don't like any more components in our anchoring system than we absolutely need.* Which for us is the anchor, the chain rode, and a single shackle to connect them together.



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 8th of October 2010 03:32:19 PM
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:12 PM   #51
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Oops. Sorry Marin. I got fooled by the quoted text. I told you I was over 50 !!!
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:43 PM   #52
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Most shackles are undersized for the job - not diameter but working strength. Unless you have*correctly mated a "proper" alloy shackle to your chain, you will be stuck with the galvanized junk they sell at most marine stores. And in most anchor setups I*have seen, the weakest link is*usually*the shackle. IMHO, a top notch swivel is far superior to a common grade shackle. My swivel*may eventually get replaced with a good alloy shackle, but I love the way the swivel lines up the anchor on retrieval as it enters the hawse hole.

On a separate note, SS anchors, SS shackles and SS chain are weaker than their standard steel counterparts.
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Old 10-08-2010, 07:34 PM   #53
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Well,* I now have a new view on swivels.* I just returned from a tour of the USCG cutter Healy, a 420 foot icebreaker docked in Juneau.* She is the newest and most technologically advanced polar icebreaker in the US.* Everything aboard is massive including the anchor tackle.* Each link of the studlink chain must weigh 30lbs, and the SWIVEL has to be over 100lbs.* So, I guess if the USCG puts swivels on their ships, there must be a reason.* Still, I'm fine without one.................Arctic Traveller

See here at** http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/cgcHealy/default.asp
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Old 10-08-2010, 07:50 PM   #54
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

The swivel might be used on the Healey, which I've seen a lot in her home berth in Seattle since the late 90s, so that her anchor will line up to the side of the ship when it's pulled into the recess in the side of the hull where it sits. It's not the sort of anchor you lean over the side and give a twist to if it comes up sideways to the hull. It would be interesting to know if other large ships with this type of anchor arrangement--- which is most of them--- also use swivels. You can't tell from the outside since the anchor shank is pulled up into the hull.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:53 PM   #55
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin

The answer to that is NO

The anchor whether on a large ship or small usually comes up ok without a swivel
the practice of swivels is something that I have only seen recently

I had a galvanised swivel on my boat when I bought it. Couldn't get it removed fast enough.

With the design of most anchors the twist comes out of the chain as you wind it up and the anchor will usually oweing to it's design turn itself over on the roller providing there is room to do so.

In 40 years I have not had to manhandle an anchor into the chocks as they always roll over at the last minute.

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Old 10-09-2010, 12:25 AM   #56
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Most shackles are undersized for the job - not diameter but working strength. Unless you have*correctly mated a "proper" alloy shackle to your chain, you will be stuck with the galvanized junk they sell at most marine stores. And in most anchor setups I*have seen, the weakest link is*usually*the shackle. IMHO, a top notch swivel is far superior to a common grade shackle. My swivel*may eventually get replaced with a good alloy shackle, but I love the way the swivel lines up the anchor on retrieval as it enters the hawse hole.

On a separate note, SS anchors, SS shackles and SS chain are weaker than their standard steel counterparts.
Tom, you have me confused.* You rightly criticise the shackle as often being the weakest link on an anchoring set-up, then go on to praise the superior qualities of an 'alloy' shackle, then later point out, again quite correctly, that a stainless steel part is a bit weaker than its mild steel equivalent, which of course rusts if not galvanised.
Now my understanding is, decent swivels have to be stainless, because with all the twisting the galvanised coating would soon be worn away.* However, good shackles can be just galvanised - or you put an oversized stainless one on.* My question is, what is this magic 'alloy' you are are referring to, because there is no way I would have any anchor connection made out of aluminium, which is what most people are talking about when they talk of alloy, and the only alloy I know of stronger than steel or stainless steel, is something like titanium, which I doubt is the alloy you are referring to.

*
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:22 AM   #57
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

The trick to shackles is no trick at all.

The best made ones are RATED , there will be a SWL load stamped or cast in to the unit.

Simply match the SWL of the chain you are using with the shackle .

Galvanizing does wear off but it takes usually YEARS before the unit looses strength.

An advantage is the galvanizing suffers when the unit is assembled , so the threads are the first to rust together.

Far better to need a hacksaw on deck to replace a shackle than have it leave at O dark 30.
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:11 AM   #58
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin - I understand your confusion, you come from the aircraft Al side and I come from the metallurgiccal big iron side. There are dozens of alloy steels that are stronger than "mild steel." By very slight variations in the carbon, Si, Mo, Cr etc content an alloy is born.

For a quick industrial reference, pull up the 1st Chain Supply website. They note the standard steel 7/16" steel shackle with a 1/2" pin WLL at 1.5 tons whereas the same size shackle made from alloy steel carries a whopping WLL of 2 5/8 tons. The alloy steel costs a magnanimous 14 bucks vs about 6 bucks for the standard steel.

And best you do not "match" the shackle to the chain, oversize ( higher WLL) *it. WLL* is a function of a strain test not always taking into account shear, shock and loose thread pins.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Saturday 9th of October 2010 07:18:42 AM
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:00 AM   #59
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

It's hard for me to imagine many subjects that will spur more heated debate than anchoring or anchoring systems. Anyone care to voice their views on the effect of anchor rode color on the overall system?* .** Personally, I'm in the rust colored camp...................Arctic Traveller
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:05 AM   #60
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Marin - I understand your confusion
I'm certainly confused over a lot of things but in this case your answer is in response to PeterB's confusion.* I just don't want to be accused of being more confused than I already am

But thank you for the link to 1st Chain Supply.* I am going to measure the shackle we use now to connect our rode to our anchor and see if I can't get a stronger one from them.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 9th of October 2010 02:02:06 PM
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