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Old 10-05-2010, 07:27 PM   #21
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I too have, for years, used swivels. By accident I put them on the correct way. However, I now have taken it off. I figured out that even if the boat circles the anchor a couple times , big deal. As the rode comes in it will rotate to remove any serious twist.

I became concerned after reading about some failures that it's one more possible problem area I could do without out.

As far as the anchor coming up facing the wrong way, yes that happens and swivel or no swivel it happens. The swivel, as far as I could see did nothing to prevent that, so the swivel is gone and will stay gone.

I also ensure I purchase good quality, load rated, shackles from mfgrs. like Crosby from an industrial supplier and secure the pin with some ss tie wire, Most of the stuff I've seen in the typical boat store is not what I want for my anchor gear.
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:40 PM   #22
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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As far as the anchor coming up facing the wrong way, yes that happens and swivel or no swivel it happens.
That was our experience, too, when we used a swivel.* So far as we experienced the swivel contributed nothing other than adding a potentially weak component to the anchor system.* When our anchor comes up facing the wrong way to come in over the bow roller a half twist of the anchor chain in the pulpit channel*fixes that pronto.

*
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:17 PM   #23
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Eric, The idea that anchor rotates on the way down. It would be interesting to video but I know no one who will get in the water around here even in summer. The twist on the way down *would explain a lot. I do agree that a swivel may be the weakest link Thank you and all the other posters for their insight.
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:18 PM   #24
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

And here I thought I was the only one with the backwards facing anchor syndrome.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:11 AM   #25
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Dude -- The issue isn't losing the anchor, it is losing the boat. Buy the best anchor fittings your chain will accept. XTX - try using a lube on your swivel. it usually helps.
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:42 AM   #26
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Dude -- The issue isn't losing the anchor, it is losing the boat. Buy the best anchor fittings your chain will accept. XTX - try using a lube on your swivel. it usually helps.
Not sure I get this.
When I anchor. I am on the boat. I don't anchor in the open ocean. When I anchor, it is always someplace protected
I have a depth alarm on* the sounder.*An anchor drag on the GPS.
If my swivel breaks and I start to drift. *I will start the engine and deploy another anchor.

So to me the issue is loosing an anchor.*

I am not going to loose my boat because I loose an anchor.

Now if there was ever a need to anchor and leave the boat for an extended time. I would be concerned but for the way I use my boat.* I don't think this is an issue.
If I ever did do an ocean crossing or took off to see the world from my own boat it would not be on my current boat. 32 ft is just to small in my mind for something like that.

In the meantime the swivel does what it is supposed to do.
Keeps the chain from kinking.

SD*


-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 09:54:28 AM
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:26 AM   #27
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Tom is right Dude. TOO many things to go wrong. Picture yourself in a small anchorage, the wind's blow'in hard and you're asleep. The swivel breaks and the alarm sounds. You're boats got a lot of windage and it's head'in for the rocks fast. And it's already gone past your alarms. It's black out there so you look at the GPS * *...after you've got your eyes open. I think you've got the picture. I did that recently and kept setting the alarm circle wider and wider. Got up several times looking out in the darkness/blackness to see the beach at low tide. If the beach was one of those steep at first, shallow later I'd prolly know something about that beforehand but the details wouldn't be solid. Variables. Does your rode get twisted up? I think I'd rather not have a swivel/weak link. However a swivel for a larger rode may be stronger than any part of one's present rode. Can't see anything wrong w that but I really don't see the need for swivels. I know I'll never have that problem as my anchor line is "Brait" and is almost totally immune to twisting. Got it at Fisheries Supply.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:56 AM   #28
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Ok.*
*I know these things can happen. Like I said.**If I anchored somewhere other than where I boat. I would be concerned. I am a lot further north than you . during the summer it never gets dark after*Mid May till*Mid*August. Midnight sun. You know.

I just don't have enough experience with other than my home waters.*

It is just me. *I am spoiled by Prince William Sound. There is always a place to get out of any weather that may come along. I am talking bullet proof anchorages.*
*
Don't let me dissuade anybody from the ground tackle of your choice.

Different strokes. Use what suits you best.*

My biggest concerns when boating.**Is when the weather gets snotty and you have to pound*through it.

Dropping anchor is a Wheew!! Glad that is over with.

SD


*

-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 11:13:52 AM
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:11 AM   #29
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
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I have a depth alarm on* the sounder.*An anchor drag on the GPS.
If my swivel breaks and I start to drift. *I will start the engine and deploy another anchor.
*
Right about the time you have to depend on electronics, they will fail.* If you said you always tie a string to your anchor and tie the other end to your big toe before you went to bed, that would be a more reliable alarm than depending on electronics to keep your butt out of trouble.

The same law that says your electronics will fail when you need them most also says your engine will fail to start when you need it most.

It's a question of risk and how much you're willing to accept.* In the cases I know of personally where people have had anchors drag, they were always on the boat and in a few instances they barely realized what was happening in time to do something about it.* In one case they had a radius alarm set in their GPS.* It didn't go off.* Fortunately one of them was a light sleeper and felt the boat's motion had changed so got up to see what was wrong.* To this day they have no idea why their GPS alarm didn't go off--- they're willing to speculate they hadn't set it properly but they think they had--- but they no longer depend on alarms when conditions are such that an anchor watch is needed.

And sometimes an alarm will do you no good at all.* If you are anchored close to shore, as is the case in many of the small, deep anchorages in the PNW, and the wind comes up and you start to drag, you'll have maybe a minute or three to do something about it.* In some cases you may be onto the shore before the alarm even goes off.

And these sorts of things never happen on a nice sunny day in calm water.* The one time we had a serious anchor drag problem it was 4:00am, the wind was howling, it was raining hard, and the waves in the bay were all nasty, steep whitecaps.* The boat was pitching and rolling all over the place.* Not the sort of environment that is conducive to setting up another anchor, not that we had the time to do this anyway in this particular situation because the shoreline was right behind us.*

Better, I think, to have the strongest, simplest anchor rode with the fewest failure points possible.

*
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:16 AM   #30
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

The stiffest winds I have anchored in were in Alaska. No waves as it was "bomb proof" but gusts to 40 knots and steady 30*over the trees for 2 days. And my swivel didn't break!!
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:16 AM   #31
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Why the twists?

The chain or nylon has twists in it , and as it comes under tension shares the twist end to end.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:44 AM   #32
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Marin,
You beat me to the post.
I anchor in a giant bath tub and I bunk in the wheel house.

If I ever leave the Sound you better believe I will take all the things gleaned from other boaters on this forum into account.

For now the swivel works. Not only does it prevent the chain from kinking, it also fits nicely*through the bow roller and chain gypsy.

Question. If these things are so bad. Why does anyone even sell them. Would not a broken swivel be cause for a law suit if failure contributed to the sinking of ones boat?

SD
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:24 PM   #33
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

This article came out of the May 15, 2009 Electronic Latitude.* I figured it's worth the post since we are talking about swivals.

Larry/Lena
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"After thoroughly enjoying Sea of Cortez Sailing Week, we were anchored at San Evaristo on Easter Sunday," write John and Gilly Foy of the Alameda and Banderas Bay-based Catalina 42 Destiny. "The wind was blowing at 14 knots when we realized we were dragging. This was a surprise it had blown much harder the night before and it wasn't blowing hard enough to cause our 55-lb Delta to trip. It was well set in sand with plenty of scope on an all-chain rode. We fired up the engine and tried to raise the anchor. Unfortunately, it was no longer at the end of the chain! After getting over the shock of seeing nothing but chain, we deployed our Fortress back-up anchor and spent the balance of the afternoon considering how lucky we were that it hadn't happend at night or while we were ashore.

"Turns out the stainless steel swivel between the anchor and chain had come apart. We'd purchased it 3.5 years ago from West Marine for about $110. Having read several reports in Latitude that some swivel shackles of this type seem to be prone to failure, we took it back to West Marine for their opinion. We were assured that ours was one of the "good ones." For the record, our swivel has a logo that looks like 'CKN' and beneath it 'Italy'. On the other side it says 'INOX AISI 316, SWL Kg 2000'. All this comes from the remaining half of the shackle that was attached to the recovered anchor.

"Some cruisers have speculated that the pin was not properly set, while others believe the pin simply broke. All we can say is that we'd periodically inspected the shackle and everything looked to be in good shape. Unlike some swivels, ours was designed to better withstand loads from some directions than others. Whatever the reason for the failure, we now have an old fashioned galvanized shackle that is wired shut, and have no plans to go back to a stainless swivel-type shackle.

"We know of two other boats in Mexico this season who have had similar swivels part. Fortunately, there was no serious loss of property, but neither was able to recover their anchors. We suggest that anyone with this type of shackle strongly reconsider using it. For us, continuing to use it would result in too many sleepless nights wondering what's going on on the bottom, even in relatively light winds and current."
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:44 PM   #34
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:Question. If these things are so bad. Why does anyone even sell them. Would not a broken swivel be cause for a law suit if failure contributed to the sinking of ones boat?
That's a good question.* I don't think it's a matter of swivels being "so bad" although I guess there are some that are poorly made.* In the article Larry quoted above it would be very interesting to know how the author had fastened the swivel to the anchor.* If it was "backwards" the swivel pin could have failed for the reason I outlined earlier (from Earl Hinz's book).

*

But I think it's more a matter of the potential for failure that causes a lot of boaters who anchor a lot to do without them.* Obviously most boaters who use swivels don't have problems (or they rarely anchor out) or we would be hearing about scores of swivel failures every year.* So I think it's more a matter of personal preference as to whether a person wants more components in their anchor rode or less of them.

*

We have never experienced a kinked or twisted chain with a swivel or without one, and we anchor in places where the boat is moved around a lot.* And like previous posters, our anchor came up "backwards" as often with a swivel as it does without one.* So I'm not convinced they really do anything worthwhile.* The theory is certainly there but I'm not sure in reality they make much difference.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:16 PM   #35
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:

Ok.*
I know these things can happen. (can and DO)

I just don't have enough experience with other than my home waters.*


*

With the greatest respect for your opinion and experience, I think your logic is flawed. Something like, I don't need a life jacket because I'm a good swimmer.

First, having spent time in the sound I can tell you that no anchorage is bomb proof at all times.* In advance of a predicted blow, we anchored in Snug harbor.* The guide books recommended it, and the name makes you think it's a good place to weather a storm.* Well, after two days of 60 knot winds, a lee shore only about 100 yards away, and two sleepless nights I was ready to get the heck out of there.* I was totally thankfull for our 350feet of all chain rode, shakeled to an oversized anchor, attached to the boat with two snubbers.* It was a wild ride.

Having anchored hundreds of times here in Alaska (where it stays light seemingly all night) I can tell you that when the anchor alarm goes off, it'll probably be in the two hours of darkness.* Trying to determine which way to move the boat into deeper water at night can reduce your life span by a few hours.* The GPS is useless in determining your direction of travel until you actually begin to move in one direction for a bit, and it always lags behind a couple seconds. Seconds you might not have on a lee shore.* If there is ANY question about the security of the anchorage, the weather or anything else, I leave the radar on standby (after having studied the picture to etch in my mind where the exit is) the GPS on, the plotter on, the depth sounder on, and the spotlight ready to go.* Often times, I'll even sleep on the bridge.

Believe me, it's total confusion when you wake in the dark and you have no idea where you are.* Traveling in the wrong direction for even 30 seconds* can put you on the rocks.

If the swivel breaks, now you have to attach another anchor, but first you have to remove yourself from harms way, and in a big blow of the type that come up in the sound, you will really have your hands full quickly.

You said,* "I am not going to loose my boat because I loose an anchor."

I hope this is true, but I'm unwilling to take an unnecessary chances, and swivels have proven to be a weak link.

In my opinion, loosing your anchor is the least of your worries. What about your life? Having stout ground tackle, properly rigged, with a minimum of weak points is the best insurance in my book.

Having said all that, I still respect other opinions and anchoring methods, but must go with what my experience as a professional mariner tells me, simple, stout and free of weak links....................................Arctic Traveller

*

*
*
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:20 PM   #36
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Where is snug harbor is that on the east side of the sound?

I do wear a life jacket. It makes it easier for the C.G. to find your body.

OK if I ever do venture out of the sound I will get rid of the swivel.
To tell the truth I can't say if it does it's job or not as I have never had an issue with or without it.

That being said I have a Hydraulic anchor winch that I could use to hoist the boat up a tree if I was so inclined. When I pull the lever the anchor comes up Twisted or not.* It once pulled so hard on a fouled anchor as to bend the shank on a 60# danforth. The bow roller is way over sized and I use 3/4" braided anchor line with 30 ft of 3/8" chain. This was on the boat when I got her.

If you could call a boat a truck that is what it is. I even have twin rams on the rudder.
The hydraulic hose is all 7/8" I also think I have as many anchors as Eric. So my issue was not loosing one. That is why I bought the cheep swivel.
*I don't think I would loose my life at anchor.**The boat OK but I always anchor close enough to shore to swim and if I did wind up on the rocks. I will walk to shore. I'm careful where I drop the hook.*

SD
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:38 PM   #37
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I'm not sure your philosophy is one I'd care to follow but if that's the approach you prefer to take with regards to anchoring so be it. However you say you don't notice any difference one way or the other with or without a swivel, and you say you bought a cheap one which is probably not all that well made, so why not eliminate a risk potential by removing it altogether?

Coming up with a bunch of illogical (to me) rationalizations for retaining a poor piece of equipment doesn't make much sense in my book when one could simply get rid of the poor piece of equipment and eliminate the problem your rationalizations are designed to retain. Particularly in this case where getting rid of the poor piece of equipment does not require you to replace it with something better (and more expensive).
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:51 PM   #38
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I'm convinced.
I'll get around to it.
Thanks
Just got a lot of things on my plate now besides I just winterized. No more anchoring till spring.
besides someone has to play the devils advocate.
No fun if everyone is on the same page.


SD
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:03 PM   #39
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Even if you elect to retain the swivel, do make sure that it's attached to the anchor the right way round so that it can pivot in any direction the rode angles into the anchor from. What you don't want is to have the rode pulling sideways on the swivel which could overstrain and snap the swivel pin.* The swivel should always be able to line up with the rode no matter what the boat does in relation to the set anchor.

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 6th of October 2010 06:04:40 PM
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:44 PM   #40
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
[img]download.spark?ID=805373&aBID=115492[/img]

Marin wrote:

*
it would be very interesting to know how the author had fastened the swivel to the anchor.* If it was "backwards" the swivel pin could have failed for the reason I outlined earlier (from Earl Hinz's book).
*_________________________________________________ _________

Here's the picture of the swivel failure.* A*follow up article was written by West Marine who sold the swivel.**They took the failure quite seriously.* Installation was never mentioned.

Larry/Lena
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