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Old 09-03-2016, 09:20 AM   #41
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Back to Boss

The Boss anchor descended it appears from the Spade, Oceane and Sword anchors. Unless someone will/can offer a more clear descendant. And the most prominent linking feature is what I'm going to call the "high arch shank". This shank is intended to (if landing vertical and backwards) lever the fluke up so the whole anchor will fall over on one side ready to set. It is not as high on the Spade as that anchor has a heavily weighted fluke toe. But the Oceane and Sword were IMO dependent on the high arch shank to right the anchor.

With the Boss and Vulcan the high arch shank (HAS) is employed to replace the roll bar for the same reason. That being that the RB anchor designs wouldn't fit on the bows of many to most boats thereby limiting greatly the market for their products. ARA solved the same problem w the Excel .. a very different anchor.

The Vulcan and Boss are very similar anchors. But the thing that links them together is both the HAS and the reason for them to emerge at this time. Actually the Boss has been w us for some time and the Vulcan was long in coming laced w rumors and an ugly prototype. It was instantly dubbed the tractor seat.

One is heavy and bulky ... the other light and slim.

The Boss maximizes it's fluke area by employing little or no ballast and using a skinny (and presumably high strength steel) shank. The lack of bulk necessary for the ballast chamber theoretically allowing much easier penetration of the sea floor. Also the shank is as skinny as whatever thickness sheet metal it is made from making it very knife like to pass through the substrate w minimum drag. These two features maximize penetration and increase fluke area as the weight saved from the minimal shank and no ballast chamber increases the available metal for the fluke. So the fluke is by design larger. Many to most say fluke area is directly proportional to holding power.

The Vulcan took more time for development and had a chance to see how the HAS shank worked on the Boss.
Vulcan took from the very successful Spade .. well practically everything. The shank has the HAS shape shared by the Oceane, Sword, Spade and Boss. However the Spade's hollow shank is (presumably) lighter and probably as strong or stronger. The key to the Boss and Vulcan is this shank shape originally seen on the Spade (to a lesser degree) and fully blown on the Oceane. The intent form the beginning was to provide a self righting anchor that would fit up through the slot on bow pulpits.
Also the Vulcan borrowed from the Spade re the ballast chamber. Perhaps they thought they needed to be different from their main competitor (The Manson Boss) and the boss had no significant ballast. So for whatever reason ballast the Vulcan got. But Rocna executed the chamber w a bit more flare than Spade. The Spade chamber is a very straight cone shape probably maximizing the chamber volume but perhaps limiting the ability to enter the substrate. The B Chamber on the Vulcan is a very nicely sculptured shape that almost certainly reduces drag while penetrating. But I'm fairly certain there is less ballast in the Vulcan chamber. So in this way the Vulcan probably chose a middle of the road course. Use ballast but less. Less than the very proven Spade but much more than the Boss.
This is how it appears to me but if the actual tip weights were disclosed the situation may be scewed one way or the another.

So it appears to be beefy and seemingly strong w smaller fluke area or as light as possible w the biggest fluke possible. I held a Boss in my hands at a boat show several years ago and it seemed sorta lightweight. But I've never heard of a Boss shank bending or any other structural failure and the Supreme has a stellar reputation re strength so either is probably excellent. But that's the issue .... one appears better for stout and one seems better for performance. Less likely to bend or more likely to hold. But I'm sure they are far closer than that makes them sound.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:25 AM   #42
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PeterB and Bigfish,
Steve of SV Panope resides in NW Washington. About 3000mi from Florida.
Watch his "Anchor Setting Videos" and PM him.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:33 AM   #43
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Steve Bedford,
Very nice to know about the almost MAX in the Chesapeake anchor test.

The MAX did very well in the 2006 Practical Sailor mag "soft mud" test.

I love you're new avatar!
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:41 AM   #44
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NW. Very well stated I can't argue with anything except that an anchor seemed light. Anchors are rated by weight, are you saying a 40 lb anchor might not weigh 40 lbs?

3000 miles is a little far to deliver my anchor. LOL. I have seen some of his videos.

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Old 09-03-2016, 09:57 AM   #45
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Bigfish,
My 15lb Manson Supreme actually weighed 18lbs delivered.
Most anchors are a bit off of their listed weight.

However when you say "are you saying a 40 lb anchor might not weigh 40 lbs?" You may be referring to my talking about the weight of ballast and appendages. Anchors almost always are very close to their listed weight. I was referring to a situation whereas if you were designing a 40lb anchor and you wanted to add ballast .. say 8lbs, You'd need to reduce some other component (or components) of the anchor by 8lbs. When you start you have 40lbs and you (as a designer) get to "spend" it on whatever specific parts of the anchor you so choose. So it's a balance act. When you add here you must subtract there .. or get/design a bigger anchor.
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:14 AM   #46
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NW

This is what I was referring to " I held a Boss in my hands at a boat show several years ago and it seemed sorta lightweight". And I am confused. I realize the weight might not be exact and may be off by a percent or two.

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Old 09-04-2016, 04:35 PM   #47
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[QUOTE=Nomad Willy;475652]
"Steve,
In a few words (but not limited to) how do you set the MAX." [QUOTE]

Setting a Super MAX Anchor
(Very abbreviated version)

For any anchor to perform to its maximum potential and design, it must be set properly. If in doubt, contact the manufacturer of your anchor regarding any specific setting procedures unique to your anchor.

1. Understanding your Ground Tackle: (a topic for another discussion).

2. Anchorage Selection: (a topic for another discussion).

3. Depth: The depth for calculating your scope ratio is the water depth at your anchorage location at high tide plus the height of the bow freeboard on the vessel to the water surface.

4. Scope: (a topic for another discussion).

5. The Anchoring Process: Once a suitable anchorage is determined:
*Point the vessel into the wind and/or current direction and bring the vessel to a complete stop.
*Lower the anchor to rest on the seabed with a length of chain/rode that is slightly longer than the depth from bow roller to seabed floor. (No need to put a large amount of chain on top of the anchor). The boat should be drifting backward to avoid the anchor chain from dropping on the anchor. The anchor's weight will allow it to settle into the seabed by its weight alone, unless you are anchoring is an extremely hard seabed.
*Allow the wind and/or current to begin to take the vessel backward and play out the rode to a 2-1/2 or 3 to 1 scope. If boat not drifting backward, use a momentary reverse engine at idle to take you away from the anchor. Taking your time allows the anchor to dig into the seabed in the exact location it initially made contact with the sea floor. If you back down to quickly, before the anchor has a chance to settle into the seabed, the anchor may "skip" across the bottom.
*Once the rode begins to straighten, the anchor is digging into the seabed. Secure the chain/ rode. This action protects the windlass. With the transmission in reverse, increase the RPMs of the engine to pull the chain or rode straight and tight to initially set the anchor. This is the initial set so care should be taken as to the RPMs used.
*Reduce the RPM and return to neutral. Lay out about a 5 to 1 scope and repeat the process, again, backing down slowly. As the chain straightens again, secure the chain or nylon rode and increase the RPMs until the anchor set causes the boat to a stop again. At this final set position, apply more RPMs.
*Practice provides confidence in the exact RPM level used in the final set and for what duration. A slow anchoring process allows the anchor to dig deep into the seabed as pressure is applied. Sudden jerks before the final set could compromise the anchor's position in the seabed.
*Once firmly set in the seabed, lay out the desired rode length. Determine anchor rode scope considering tidal changes, potential wind shifts or increase in velocity, proximity to other boats and land structures, seabed topography, seabed substrate, and predicted weather conditions. Under normal conditions the recommended scope ratios of most anchors range from 5:1 to 7:1. Many anchoring experts routinely lay out greater scope lengths up to 10:1. Check the manufacturer's recommendations and check with other users of this anchor for their recommendations based on experience.

6. Completing The Anchoring Process: (a topic for another discussion).

I am sure this will generate some comment and debate. However this technique has been used by many Super MAX users for a long years. I am sure many have some slight modifications but generally this is the process that has been most successful.

Steve
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:36 PM   #48
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Steve. I have heard others recommend this same procedure.

I don't subscribe to it because many anchors won't take a set at 2 - 3 scope so you may just load the anchor with grass and furrow the bottom because of this I immediately go to a 7:1 scope and make my initial set. If it holds I'll wait about 20 minutes and make a harder set and if it holds that where I'll stay unless I'm expecting wind and I may drop back to 10:1 and make another heavy set.

Please educate me as to what you gain with the initial set at 2 or 3:1. Personally I wouldn't trust a scope of 3:1 unless it is a lunch hook anchoring.

I guess I have a lot to learn.

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Old 09-04-2016, 09:01 PM   #49
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Fish,
Without much tension on the rode even w a small amount of chain the rode droops. So just ahead of the anchor the angle of the rode is probably far flatter than the scope numbers would suggest. The angle of the rode when pulled straight is very much more vertical than it is during the initial back down on the set.
I have said many times in the past on anchoring threads that the biggest advantage of chain in the rode is to help set the anchor. The chain keeps the angle of pull at the anchor very low. And when the anchor starts to dig in more tension is felt on the rode and the rode to anchor angle gets steeper but the anchor has engaged the bottom and most of the time w most anchors they will continue to set.

Why Steve recomends starting at 2 or 3-1 instead of 5-1 I don't know. I do know that many anchors have quite different performance at short scope. And I've heard one anchor sets better at 3 to 4-1 than at 7-1 or more. Don't understand that either.

Steve recomends following the recomendations of the specific anchor manufacturer. Good advice IMO. They want you to succeed and to have a good opinion of their product. What you say will probably effect their sales in the future.

Steve I haven't heard of the multiple pull setting at different scopes/angles but it makes sense. Pull a bit at this angle and pull a bit at that angle. I've heard the "slow soak" setting is best quite a few times and agree but always wondered if you pull at 1400 rpm and pull again in the same direction and at the same scope ........ why not just pull more in the first place? But pulling at decreasing angles sounds like it would be worthwhile.

Thanks Steve I'm very glad I asked that question.
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:08 PM   #50
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Steve. I have heard others recommend this same procedure.

I don't subscribe to it because many anchors won't take a set at 2 - 3 scope so you may just load the anchor with grass and furrow the bottom because of this I immediately go to a 7:1 scope and make my initial set. If it holds I'll wait about 20 minutes and make a harder set and if it holds that where I'll stay unless I'm expecting wind and I may drop back to 10:1 and make another heavy set.

Please educate me as to what you gain with the initial set at 2 or 3:1. Personally I wouldn't trust a scope of 3:1 unless it is a lunch hook anchoring.

I guess I have a lot to learn.

Thanks.
I can understand your concern and question. The 3:1 is not "the set". I called this the initial set and I caution folks not to back down hard with this scope ratio. All you are attempting to do at this point is make sure the fluke is in the seabed and beginning to dig in. Extending the scope to 5:1 to 7:1 will then firmly dig the anchor in to "set" the anchor. Too many folks back down quickly after dropping the anchor and the anchor does not have time to dig in. In that case, the fluke (not being in the seabed) can indeed skip across the bottom until it catches. Actually slight tugs on the anchor with the fluke point(s) into the seabed will allow the anchor to dig in right at that point rather than moving to catch.

Many of our users pass right through this initial set to the 5:1 scope to set the anchor. I know that. They can do that usually because they take their time in the process and allow the anchor to do its thing on the bottom and not just rely on the engine.

Hope this better explains what I was trying to convey. I am one to believe that whatever works for you, do it.

Steve
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:35 PM   #51
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There are a few reasons for the "initial set" and I want to emphasize this is initial. I am not recommending setting our anchor at 2.5 :1 or 3:1.
1. If the anchor is not catching at the shorter scope, you know this and can adjust quicker than backing down to 7:1 then trying to set. If it does not set, at that scope, you "may have" some quick work to do in an anchorage with other boats with that much scope out.
2. I can not emphasize the slowness aspect enough and allowing the anchor to dig in. Too many poor sets or no sets occur when the operator simply drops the anchor, lays out a 7:1, and then backs down quickly. Take you time.
3. The action on an anchor over time is tug and relax, tug and relax, over and over again. During more severe conditions there is more tug than relaxation on the rode. However, every time there is stress on a set anchor the seabed is being compressed against the fluke. When the tug relaxes, because there is less pressure on the opposite side of the anchor fluke, the "hole" in the seabed where the anchor is placed can/may/will allow the fluke to dig deeper.
4. The first initial set at 2.5 or 3:1 is designed to allow the anchor to stay put where it was intiially dropped and not move backward before it catches with the boat under power.

As I said in my last response, many of our users use this technique with their Super MAX and others go right to 5:1 to set. What both have in common is that they usually take their time so the same initial set takes place as the boat naturally moves backward on its own until the rode is taunt or straighter.

Also as I said, if what one does works, great, do it.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:04 PM   #52
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Funny...I sorta have an affinity to what the videos show..

Opinions are cheap when videos are worth 10,000 words.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:50 PM   #53
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Thanks guys. I beginning to think there is no absolute right or wrong way (well maybe a wrong) to anchor. I'll give the short initial set and then move further away and see how it works although I have no problem with what I am doing now.

Psneeld. I'm being lazy not to go look up the underwater videos, but what do you interpret the videos show is the best way to anchor? People look at things and see different things. Thanks.

This is an interesting discussion, better than others I've read.
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Old 09-05-2016, 12:05 AM   #54
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Nomad Willy, Hey Eric, I was just driving over the Rainbow Bridge today and lo and behold I saw Willy headed south by Shelter Bay. Headed for the yard?
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:18 AM   #55
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I don't subscribe to it because many anchors won't take a set at 2 - 3 scope so you may just load the anchor with grass and furrow the bottom because of this I immediately go to a 7:1 scope and make my initial set. If it holds I'll wait about 20 minutes and make a harder set and if it holds that where I'll stay unless I'm expecting wind and I may drop back to 10:1 and make another heavy set.

Please educate me as to what you gain with the initial set at 2 or 3:1. Personally I wouldn't trust a scope of 3:1 unless it is a lunch hook anchoring.

I can say that process works well with our SuperMAX. Initial set at short-ish scope, then real set at real scope, then improve the set with some power or time (Happy Hour) or both, then adjust scope to deal with how crowded (or not) the anchorage might be, or to prep for expected weather as necessary.

I wouldn't assume that applies to all anchors, just our MAX. Fortress suggests a slightly similar technique for setting their anchor in soft mud. Wouldn't expect to use that same technique for other anchors, either. (YMW -- will, likely --V.)

Whatever each manufacturer recommends is likely best for their particular anchor. If your anchors are happier with an initial set at 7:1 -- I assume you're not using a MAX? -- sounds like you've got a plan. But if you were to use a MAX, my guess is that you'd be happy starting with Steve's suggestions, modify from there according to your boat, substrate at the time, etc.

-Chris
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Old 09-05-2016, 10:57 AM   #56
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I can say that process works well with our SuperMAX. Initial set at short-ish scope, then real set at real scope, then improve the set with some power or time (Happy Hour) or both, then adjust scope to deal with how crowded (or not) the anchorage might be, or to prep for expected weather as necessary.

I wouldn't assume that applies to all anchors, just our MAX. Fortress suggests a slightly similar technique for setting their anchor in soft mud. Wouldn't expect to use that same technique for other anchors, either. (YMW -- will, likely --V.)

Whatever each manufacturer recommends is likely best for their particular anchor. If your anchors are happier with an initial set at 7:1 -- I assume you're not using a MAX? -- sounds like you've got a plan. But if you were to use a MAX, my guess is that you'd be happy starting with Steve's suggestions, modify from there according to your boat, substrate at the time, etc.

-Chris
Well said Chris, better than I could say. For everyone, I was asked to share the setting technique for the Super MAX. For anyone not using that anchor, you should contact that manufacturer's directions.

I can share with you all that I have a good friend with a "very popular New Generation" anchor (I have not convinced him yet) who used to initially and permanently set his anchor at 5:1. One time in a rather crowded anchorage, he found it did not set as he began to back down with his twin diesels. Once he realized he was not holding, he was scrambling to stop the boat, avoid other boat's space, retrieve his anchor with about 75' of chain out, and start again. I suggested he try the 2.5:1 or 3:1 very slow initial set to see if the anchor is at least digging in (rode straighten and minimal tension applied) before laying out more chain and backing down harder. He now does this technique with his non-Super MAX anchor all the time. He realized that slow is good, shorter scope initially means less to retrieve if not "catching", and not backing down more onto someone else's radius before realizing the fluke did not catch and allowing for a proper set at his normal 5:1.

Again, the shorter scope initially is NOT the firm "setting scope."

Whatever consistently works for each one of you is a good technique.

Happy anchoring.
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Old 09-05-2016, 11:31 AM   #57
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Chris and Steve

Your correct, my anchor is a Boss. However I'll try your method and see if I like it any better but I've really never had a problem in setting the anchor except at one place.

Thanks.
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Old 09-05-2016, 11:41 AM   #58
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I usually do the opposite of Steve's method .. set long (about 5-1) and shorten up to 3-1. Never dragged and never seen a Max.

However my method of setting involves laying out the rode w a small (very small) amount of tension on the rode (especially at first) to insure no chain (or line) lands on top of or behind the anchor. As I pay out line I sorta jerk on the line to keep it more of less straight. But as the layout of the rode continues I probably put enough tension on the rode to cause a fluke to penetrate the sea floor. So in a way I'm doing Steve's method by little "nibbles" of tension as I pull lightly on the rode while laying it down in a basically straight line. But when I back down I don't mess around more than slowly (a minute or so) getting up to my usual setting rpm of 1400.
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Old 09-05-2016, 12:23 PM   #59
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NW.

Which leads me to another question: what RPM do others back down with? I have twin 480 hp and I originally back down at 600 RPM and then take one engine to 1000 and the back to 600 and then the other engine to 1000RPM and finally both to 1000 to 1200 RPM. I tend to rock the anchor in. If I'm expecting high winds 25 knots I will increase the scope to 10:1 and back down at 1500.
Not sure why I came to this but I've been doing it for many years. Seems to work at least for me.

If you experts see a way to improve this routine please let me know.

Thanks.
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Old 09-05-2016, 03:38 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Chris and Steve
Your correct, my anchor is a Boss. However I'll try your method and see if I like it any better but I've really never had a problem in setting the anchor except at one place.
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I have twin 480 hp and I originally back down at 600 RPM and then take one engine to 1000 and the back to 600 and then the other engine to 1000RPM and finally both to 1000 to 1200 RPM. I tend to rock the anchor in. If I'm expecting high winds 25 knots I will increase the scope to 10:1 and back down at 1500.
Not sure why I came to this but I've been doing it for many years. Seems to work at least for me.

If you experts see a way to improve this routine please let me know.

a) Think I'd do (or try) whatever Boss recommends, and

b) Sounds like your method is working for that anchor. Unless Boss recommendations are significantly different from what you're doing, don't know what I'd suggest changing anything.

-Chris
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