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Old 09-01-2016, 06:10 PM   #21
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Here's a photo of our Rocna just after it was set in the Bahamas. I always jumped in the water to check after anchoring, but scraped up my leg one day so had to stay out of the water for a while. I asked my wife to swim down & take a picture for me (what a woman!). By morning, after a 20-25 knot blow overnight, all you could see was chain disappearing into the sand.

I think that's maybe the only pic I've seen with the rollbar almost completely buried. Think I remember Noelex's pics mostly (all?) showing the rollbar more exposed? And maybe it's the only report I've read of the rollbar eventually being completely buried.

I haven't followed the Rocna's closely, but have seen theory about the rollbar impeding further penetration...

Wish we could dive usefully on our anchor from time to time to see what's what. It's so muddy here, it would take more than just a quick free dive. My impression, though, is that sometimes our anchor is completely buried including the whole shank along with about 2-3' of chain. Usually takes forever to clean all that goop off...

-Chris
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Old 09-01-2016, 06:17 PM   #22
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I replaced my 33b claw with a 25lb Manson Boss recently on my Mainship 30.

My cruising area is CT Shoreline, Long Island, Block Island, Cuttyhunk, Napatree etc.

The Manson is performing very well so far this season. It seems to set quicker setting and I have difficulty retrieving once it is set.

The jury is still out but so far I am happy with my decision.

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Old 09-01-2016, 06:46 PM   #23
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??

Why or how would ballast impede penetration?

-Chris
Chris,
It's a chamber. Wedge shaped under the tip of the fluke. Probably several square inches on the aft end. 2" X 2" about. Kinda like a big Dracula heart peg. Driving a chamber filled w lead through anything but mud takes quite a bit of force. An anchor is in a fluid .. the sea bottom. Sand, rocks ect mixed w water. Some is very hard packed and some like sand is very fluid (loose).

Most pics of anchors in catalogues tend to not show the ballast chamber. Take a look the next time you have a chance.
The Boss, Rocna and Supreme don't have a weighted tip as in a ballast chamber. They have a fluke that is thicker at the tip and does provide a small bit of ballast but it is still very thin compared to a ballast chamber. And made of steel .. not lead. So the toe or tip of the fluke remains knife like and penetrates well.


Thanks Willpep,
Most here prefer the shackle having the pin through the chain as you have done and many (at least) use a bolt through the slot to keep the rode at the boat end of the shank.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:49 AM   #24
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[QUOTE=Nomad Willy;475269]psneeld,
"You are right but it's common knowledge that the deeper a given fluke gets burried the greater holding power it will have."

There are so many factors that contribute to or deter from a fluke penetrating deep in the seabed. Manufacture design, weight, fluke sharpness, fluke angle, fluke tip pointing into the seabed, initial set speed and pull, scope and finally the actual seabed substrate. I will not criticize another company's design or anchor. I only promote the benefits of the Super MAX Anchor. There are many excellent anchors for the consumer to consider. Some anchors can and do outperform other anchors. However, and many do not want to hear this, the difference in holding performance between the higher performing anchors is often the user's skill in proper setting the anchor. Not every anchor sets the same. This is why I advocate using the manufacturer's recommendation on proper setting procedure for a specific anchor rather than one method that deviates from the manufacturer's recommendation. I feel it is wrong then to say an anchor does not perform well when the setting technique is not consistent with the manufacturer's recommended setting procedure.

"And how deep an anchor gets burried is important but the bottom may only allow several inches of penetration so probably the biggest fluke wins."

Most "experts" agree that one should outfit a boat with the largest anchor possible or reasonable on a boat. I tried some various heavier sizes (2) of the Super MAX on my Willard 40. On the 112 lb version, all I did was drop the anchor on to the seabed and I was set. However, it did not fit on my bow comfortably or reasonably. On the 75 lb version, it fit better on the bow and still set almost immediately. I could use that model but the 50 lb model still combines the setting and holding characteristics I want with the appearance that is appropriate.

"IMO the road to the best anchor for a skipper to use is a good balance of holding power and setting dependability ... along w scope flexability and the way the anchor mounts the bow."

Well said.

Steve
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:15 AM   #25
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Chris,
It's a chamber. Wedge shaped under the tip of the fluke. Probably several square inches on the aft end. 2" X 2" about. Kinda like a big Dracula heart peg. Driving a chamber filled w lead through anything but mud takes quite a bit of force. An anchor is in a fluid .. the sea bottom. Sand, rocks ect mixed w water. Some is very hard packed and some like sand is very fluid (loose).

Most pics of anchors in catalogues tend to not show the ballast chamber. Take a look the next time you have a chance.
The Boss, Rocna and Supreme don't have a weighted tip as in a ballast chamber. They have a fluke that is thicker at the tip and does provide a small bit of ballast but it is still very thin compared to a ballast chamber. And made of steel .. not lead. So the toe or tip of the fluke remains knife like and penetrates well.

Hmmm.... Fat peg versus thin blade theory. OK, thanks. Hadn't paid close attention to the various pictures.

Is that all theoretical critique, or have you actually experienced that with ballasted anchors?

I'd imagine the "quite a bit of force" would maybe be more of a handicap on some boats than on others. We've got a fair amount of horsepower and boat weight...

-Chris
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:41 AM   #26
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I think that's maybe the only pic I've seen with the rollbar almost completely buried. Think I remember Noelex's pics mostly (all?) showing the rollbar more exposed? And maybe it's the only report I've read of the rollbar eventually being completely buried.
I used to see that all the time when I'd dive on my Rocna.

Unless of course I was anchoring on hard bottom with a thin layer of sand over it.
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:43 AM   #27
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I used to see that all the time when I'd dive on my Rocna.

Unless of course I was anchoring on hard bottom with a thin layer of sand over it.

Interesting. A completely-buried anchor always seems (to me) to have an advantage!

-Chris
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:14 AM   #28
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Not always Chris,
Buried won't have much holding power in a very soft bottom.

Chris wrote;
"Hmmm.... Fat peg versus thin blade theory. OK, thanks. Hadn't paid close attention to the various pictures.

"Is that all theoretical critique, or have you actually experienced that with ballasted anchors?"
Never used a ballasted anchor so it's "theoretical critique". My "theory" is that if you can get a non-ballasted anchor to set why use extra weight. Seems just "extra" to me. Why not get a bigger fluke anchor instead?

Steve,
In a few words (but not limited to) how do you set the MAX.
Steve wrote;
"Most "experts" agree that one should outfit a boat with the largest anchor possible or reasonable on a boat.
I could carry an 80lb Claw on my W30 but why do that when lots of anchors under 25lbs will hold the boat in a 50 knot wind? So I don't consider that "expert" advice. Perhaps it was a long time ago.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:24 AM   #29
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OK. I need to educate myself here. In a real soft bottom what creates holding power if not being buried?

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Old 09-02-2016, 10:22 AM   #30
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Mostly fluke area.

But fluke sharpness, fluke to shank or throat angle, fluke aspect ratio, shank slenderness and others elements of design are significantly involved. But mostly fluke area. And w a given fluke area and thickness of and the weight of apendages (shanks, stocks, roll bars ect) all take away fluke area as the weight of appendages needs to be subtracted from the overall weight of the anchor. So for a given anchor weight all appendages and ballast subtract from the surface area on the anchor. So from a standpoint of anchor performance (generally speaking) the anchor w the smallest and most knife like form of appendages and little or no ballast will be the best performer. And any appendage or ballast needs to increase performance more than an increase in fluke area (matching the weight of the added feature) or fluke area is better.

But basically fluke area is king in soft bottoms. Look at the Chesapeke Bay Mud test on this forum.

Anchors like the Super SARCA, Super MAX, Danforth, XYZ, Fortress, Bulwagga and Davis Tallon are all excellent in mud. There are others too but no anchor is good in really soft mud except Fortress or Danforths.
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:51 AM   #31
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Not always Chris,
Buried won't have much holding power in a very soft bottom.

Chris wrote;
"Is that all theoretical critique, or have you actually experienced that with ballasted anchors?"
Never used a ballasted anchor so it's "theoretical critique". My "theory" is that if you can get a non-ballasted anchor to set why use extra weight. Seems just "extra" to me. Why not get a bigger fluke anchor instead?

We've not had problems -- with Fortress or MAX anchors -- in soupy bottoms. Fully buried seems (intuitively, to me) better than only partially buried. Said differently, and assuming the angle of the dangle is all in accordance with the maker's instructions... when would a fully buried anchor not be better than a partially buried or only slightly buried anchor?

I like bigger fluke area, too, but if I have to get a heavier -- ballasted or not -- anchor to do that, not sure it would matter to me. Within the limits of what I can lift manually if my windlass craps out... additional anchor weight doesn't concern me much.

OT analogy, but I'm reminded of magazines articles in the '70s: .45 or 9mm, which is better? Slow and heavy, or light and fast? Always seemed to me the best answer was heavy and fast. (Within the limits of controllable recoil., of course.)


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There are others too but no anchor is good in really soft mud except Fortress or Danforths.
Our SuperMAX does very well in soft mud. So far, every bit as well as our Fortress. I've never even had to adjust the MAX to its mud setting, yet.

We use it as our primary now, instead of the Fortress, but mostly because the Fortress doesn't hang so well on our pulpit/roller, the Fortress can be carried out as a kedge (much!) more easily if necessary, and the Fortress can be dismantled for better stowage.

If you haven't seen them, google anchoring reports from Cap'n Wil Andrews, starting from the mid-90s sometime I think. He did lots of hurricane-focused anchor testing in soup, and eventually included the MAX anchors in his testing regime.

We were just down in Solomons this last weekend, so I'm reminded I tried to convince Brian to include a MAX in the Chesapeake Bay testing, even offered to let them use our anchor... but that didn't work out for various legit reasons, not least of which was that I didn't know about the testing/didn't make the offer until after they'd already mapped out their plan and so forth. Rats! Would have liked to see the comparison...

-Chris
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:03 PM   #32
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Eric I'm not sure I fully understand all the parameters your describe but that is just me. I know I bought a Boss because it is big in area and so far it seems to work really well in my areas of anchoring. I assume there will never be a perfect anchor for everyone and every anchor will have pluses and minuses and we have to live with the compromise.

Chris enters the 9mm vs .45 debate, oh no I hope not. Next he will enter the Weaver vs Isosceles. LOL

Thanks guys. Very informative.
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:49 PM   #33
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Chris enters the 9mm vs .45 debate, oh no I hope not. Next he will enter the Weaver vs Isosceles. LOL

Let's just say I often go a different direction on both of those.



-Chris
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Old 09-02-2016, 04:17 PM   #34
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I presume 9mmvs.45, Weaver vs Iso, and anchors are things to avoid like politics and religion. LOL
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:44 AM   #35
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"I presume 9mmvs.45, Weaver vs Iso, and anchors are things to avoid like politics and religion."

Except this an actual case where Bigger is Better.

A watch fob makes for poor sleep when the breeze picks up.
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:26 AM   #36
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Lots of ideas being tossed around as near facts.

Haven't seen one iota of proof for most of them.

Iots of seemingly known "facts" often talked about were quickly weakened or vaporized by watching the anchor setting videos.

Even what a lot of proclaimed and published experts seem to be in conflict with a few industrious folks that actually document things about anchoring.

I know where my leanings are.
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Lots of ideas being tossed around as near facts.

Haven't seen one iota of proof for most of them.

Iots of seemingly known "facts" often talked about were quickly weakened or vaporized by watching the anchor setting videos.

Even what a lot of proclaimed and published experts seem to be in conflict with a few industrious folks that actually document things about anchoring.

I know where my leanings are.
To an extent, I agree. We need to get a Boss and a Vulcan to Steve on Panope somehow. Anyone near him who has one, and willing to have it tested..?

Look up 'Anchor setting videos' or Panope to find out roughly where he is based.
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:36 AM   #38
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There are a lot of comments for me to respond to here including the "brief" outline of the recommended procedure to set a Super MAX Anchor. It would be easy for me to refer someone to the anchor's website but I will not do that. I will post that procedure in an abbreviated outline suitable for this forum.

Regarding the infamous Chesapeake Bay Soft Mud Test, I can not and will not blame Fortress for not including the Super MAX. That test occurred during the transition of ownership of the company from Andy Peabody to myself. It is my understanding that after the Super MAX Anchor was suggested to Brian from Fortress by a number of well respected users of the anchor, the company reached out to Andy. He stated that he did not feel it was correct to test the Super MAX Anchor because the anchor was not being offered for sale to the public. Andy was not sure the sale of the business would go through and there was a possibility that the anchor would never again be produced. He did not think that was the right thing to do. I was aware of the test during our negotiations with Andy but of course was not far enough along in the sale and transition of ownership to offer any suggestions. I believe Fortress was open to including the Super MAX had it been authorized by the ownership.

Regarding the comments about added weight of an anchor perhaps being old school. We have lots of owners of our anchor who have anchored in more wind that 50 miles per hour. When that happens, a properly set, bigger, stronger anchor makes a more secure anchoring experience. Therefore, a lot depends on how severe the conditions might be where you intend to anchor. Remember, the ground tackle should be able to withstand or beat be the most extreme conditions from Mother Nature you intend to anchor in.
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:17 AM   #39
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I can think of a couple of other places where bigger is better. LOL
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:20 AM   #40
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Panope if he is fairly close to southeast Florida can test my Boss, I could probably deliver it.
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