Towing a Drogue

[MurrayM]

Anybody have experience in towing a drouge?

We live at the head of a 50 mile long, narrow, mountainous channel which is subject to strong summer winds as the mainland heats up during the day pulling cool air off the ocean, which also lines up perfectly with storms coming in off the Pacific. Steep, breaking, closely spaced seas are the norm.

I've been reading how towing a drouge can "settle a boat down" allowing it to track a straighter line with less yawing or broaching, making it easier at the helm and more comfortable for all aboard.

While this would impact speed and fuel consumption, does a more comfortable ride make up for that? Do they create new problems if they hold the stern lower in the water? Any other things to consider?

 

[GFC]

I would think it definitely would impact speed and fuel consumption. How much effect it would have would depend on the size of the drogue and how fast you're towing it.

I've heard (but never tried) towing a 5-gallon bucket can have a similar effect without the cost of the drogue. If you tried that once you'd know the answers to all your questions and wouldn't have spent a ton of money on a drogue.

I'd use a floating line so it avoids the props. In my non-engineering mind it would seem the further you trailed the bucket/drogue behind you the more impact it would have on the motion of the boat in those waves. I'm thinking 50'-75' behind rather than 10'-15' behind.

If you try a bucket, c'mon back and let us know how it worked.

 

[MurrayM]

If you try a bucket, c'mon back and let us know how it worked.

As long as I don't kick it

Good point to try an el-cheapo floating line version first, when conditions aren't too gnarly.

 

[psneeld]

I've used drogues many times when towing vessels...in fact towing a vessel is like towing a drogue so you could say I have thousands of days towing drogues of all shapes and sizes.

When towing sailboats and many catamarans... sail or power...you have to have a drogue on them or they will easily slide by you or be out of control from yawing.

The trouble with a drogue for your own boat is that you need different sizes for different conditions, situations.

If you are primarily looking for a breaking bar crosser...then you just need to try out a couple sizes that will be resistant enough to keep your stern straing as you start to surf the wave.

As for drag...sure they kill your fuel consumption and slow you down...but you would only use one if losing your boat is in question. If your boat really handles poorly in a following sea...you can drag a couple hundred feet of line behnd you and you would be supprised at how that helps. It doesn't slow you too much (it can be one iece or several shorter pieces ...you really have to play around to see what works) and really keeps you from yawing badly. They do not usually significantly change your trim.

5 gallon buckets do work..I keep 2 on the assistance boat rigged for drogue work. Lose the handles and drill 4 holes under the second lip and put line in them. Definitely only light duty work there as depending on the quality/age of the plastic. Thoght I have had them suprise me in both durability and others just have just disappeared...

When I have lost steering I have steered miles up windy creeks to boat ramps usung buckets to steer so they are versitile..

There are many commercially produced drogues so there is quite a selection. There are also as many opinions on their use and worth...so take it all in.

 

[MurrayM]

Much thanks psneeld. Do I remember correctly from my sea kayaking days that dragging a line off the stern is called 'trailing a warp'?

 

[psneeld]

Much thanks psneeld. Do I remember correctly from my sea kayaking days that dragging a line off the stern is called 'trailing a warp'?

I believe that is correct.

 

[FF]

The loading is way to high for a pail.

Use a car tire with a chain wrap , then a nylon line that is not too thin, 5/8 or so.

Simplest recovery is a saliboat self tailing winch on the stern quarter , which has other good uses.

 

[Northern Spy]

Check out the Jordan series drogue. You could make a modified smaller modular version.

 

[bobsyiruncle]

OK Northern Spy, I read the Jordan Series information and I am quite impressed but also quite puzzled.

1) What they describe is a counter intuitive deployment from the stern meaning that the traditional wisdom of "bow into the waves" may be wrong under some circumstances. Just what those circumstances are might determine the appropriate emergency reversal response?

2) Might this technology apply to smaller more square waves found on the Great Lakes?

3) Could you replicate at least some of the benefit by dragging a line with a few towels or other obstacles tied on and some chain?

4) It might make sense for a sail boat but I do not know if I want to try it with a low cockpit and a relatively weak transom door.

5) Lastly, I am surprised that I have never heard of this before - thanks

 

[MurrayM]

I'll take a crack at it...

The Jordan Series Drogue was designed for use in survival situations while running before a storm on the open ocean. In all the examples given, the crews wanted to travel the same direction as the storm, but were in danger of capsize from surfing uncontrollably down the wave faces. My guess is that if they wanted to hold, or stay close to their position as the storm passed over them, they would have deployed a sea anchor off the bow.

This type of drogue is designed to sink as the boat slows or moves backwards in a trough, to keep constant tension on the drogue...something cone drogues don't do because they collapse when not under tension. This could be problematic for our prop driven craft!

I foresee using a towing bridle and floating towline, a chunk of chain at the end (well away from the prop and rudder) to hold it down in the water, and 'some stuff' attached near the end. In theory, I wouldn't want one as effective as the Jordan drogue because I'll still be under power and still want to make good forward progress, just in a calmer, more controlled state than if there was no drogue being used at all.

Navel gazing is fun

 

[psneeld]

Actually FF's suggestion of a tire is right on other than storage...it's tough, they float and are effective for fairly large vessels (adjust the size for boat/conditions...use studded for really tough water).

I have used them a lot....

The only thing that becomes an issue is if you can't stop to retrieve it. Thus the nice attributes of a fabric cone drogue with trip line.

 

[MurrayM]

Anybody with about a half hour to kill can read this PDF file of emails from 'Kensblog' discussing how the Jordan Series Drogue applies to larger passage making trawlers;

http://www.kensblog.com/uploads/16765/documents/JordanDroguePosts.pdf

 

[Phil Fill]

It seems a sea anchor and/or drogue are basically the same. Sea anchor is attached to the bow and a drogue is attached to the stern. The sea anchor connected to the bow is to keep the bow into the wind/waves when the boat has lost forward motion and slow the speed of the drift. Where as a drogue the boat still has forward motion is connect to the stern to slow the forward motion and/or to keep the stern from wandering. Even back in the Viking days they dragged long ropes from their boat to keep tracking in a straight line.

I could see a drogue would be good for towing to slow the tow and keep the tow straight, and also at anchor to keep the boat from swinging in stead of a steadying sail

 

[psneeld]

It seems a sea anchor and/or drogue are basically the same. Sea anchor is attached to the bow and a drogue is attached to the stern. The sea anchor connected to the bow is to keep the bow into the wind/waves when the boat has lost forward motion and slow the speed of the drift. Where as a drogue the boat still has forward motion is connect to the stern to slow the forward motion and/or to keep the stern from wandering. Even back in the Viking days they dragged long ropes from their boat to keep tracking in a straight line.

I could see a drogue would be good for towing to slow the tow and keep the tow straight, and also at anchor to keep the boat from swinging in stead of a steadying sail

Similar but different...a sea anchor should all but stop a drifting boat while a drogue is used to control a vessel that is intending to keep going.

 

[Phil Fill]

I thought the primary reason was to keep the bow into the wind/waves and second to slow/stop the speed. The Sea anchor we have is more of a drogue for the Eagle size. I bought it 10+ years ago when there was a discussion on the old PMM board, where only keeping the bow into the wind was talked about.

 

[psneeld]

Sea ANCHOR - hold position
Drogue - control but progress. If a drogue slows you too much it isn't helping...you might as well turn around and deploy a sea anchor.....and that may mean waiting and letting the worst come over you.

Another way of looking at it is the sea anchor may be the only thing that can keep you off a lee shore and a drogue will allow you to run to safety or at some angle to get out of the path of a storm. It's needed when conditions are so bad you may broach without it or just overwhelm your steering control.

A drogue for a breaking inlet would definitely have to be sized correctly because you don't want to remain in the dnger zone one second longer than necessary.

 

[Moonstruck]

I have only done this once, but went into Perdido Pass after dark with about 5' breaking waves. I was towing a disabled boat with my Blackfin. To say that I was apprehensive would be an understatement. When my boat would try to shear off the towed boat would yank me back. When his bow went off my boat would yank him back. We went in the pass like we were on rails. Seams to me that a drogue could work as well.

 

[Andy G]

Interesting thread.Given that most here do not own boats that have any right/reason to be out in some of the weather discussed in Murray M's post, are smaller Drogue's a useful/necessary piece of kit for the average river/coastal cruiser?

One of the interesting points that arose in that blog is that even those with true passage makers and a lot of off shore experience, very few have ever deployed a sea anchor or Drogue in earnest, or even in practice.

 

[psneeld]

Interesting thread.Given that most here do not own boats that have any right/reason to be out in some of the weather discussed in Murray M's post, are smaller Drogue's a useful/necessary piece of kit for the average river/coastal cruiser?

One of the interesting points that arose in that blog is that even those with true passage makers and a lot of off shore experience, very few have ever deployed a sea anchor or Drogue in earnest, or even in practice.

I have..what's are you tying to say?

Sea anchors are usually a last resort, a survival tactic...

Drogues are much more common and useful to the knowledgeable.

I have use drogues dozens of times...several to help steer a rudderless boat or one with jammed steerig just to get home/safe port.

You don't necessarily have to have a "manufactured drogue" aboard...but understanding the concept and jury rigging one may be the ticket and even a lifesaver to any boater one day.

 

[LarryM]

On Boomarang I carry a Seabrake just in case. Thankfully I have never had to deploy it, but it is there if I need it. It is made in Australia and highly regarded by mariners the world over. It can be used as a sea anchor, drogue, emergency steering, flopper stopper and even a MOB sling or bosun's chair in a pinch. It is collapsible and stows flat. It did get used a bit more on my sailboats which were more likely to get caught out in snotty weather.

You might want to take a look.

Larry
m/v Boomarang

 

[psneeld]

A drogue and a sea anchor are 2 totally different things and would be dangerous to use interchangeably unless it is capable of some magic metamorphosis....

 

[LarryM]

A drogue and a sea anchor are 2 totally different things and would be dangerous to use interchangeably unless it is capable of some magic metamorphosis....

Actually that is not far from the way it is supposed to work. Here is an article that describes how the variable drag design works. While sailing and using it as a droque, it is perfect, it doesn't spin or break the surface, but I have never tried to deploy one as a sea anchor, so you may be right. It is SOLAS approved as a 'compliant sea anchor' which is why a number of offshore racers and cruisers carry them I'm sure.

Since I try to avoid extreme conditions in my current boat, my primary interest is for an emergency steering device and drogue, but I have yet to use it for anything on Boomarang. I hope I never have to. I will rig it to see how effective it is though, just to know what I can expect if the time ever arises. Besides, if I ever need a tow, I might be better prepared there too.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Larry
m/v Boomarang

 

[hmason]

Looked at the Seabrake Website. Where can it be purchased?

 

[LarryM]

I did not buy mine in the States. You might call or email them to find out who distributes them here. Or, they may sell direct.

Seabrake is manufactured by:
Burke Marine Pty Ltd
1/5 Clyde Street
Rydalmere NSW 2116
AUSTRALIA
Tel 61 2 9638 4333
Website: www.burkemarine.com.au
Email: sales@burkemarine.com.au

 

[expat]

I have experimented with a 5 gal bucket and different lengths of rope , did not notice any real improvement , a big tyre sounds better except I donot carry one

 

[psneeld]

drogues are designed to slow your advance underway...in other words keep you straight or from broaching while you make way...they are deployed from the stern

sea anchors are designed to "anchor" you in one spot....not underway in any shape or form....usually deployed from the bow so the boat can stand the pummeling of the seas.

marketing has blurred these simple definitions for decades....

while variable drag has some merit....when I need to stay off a lee shore...I'm not sure that's ever gonna do the job of a 15-20 foot diameter para...and it sure looks like it would provide too much drag for my vessels cleats so I would have to install a heavy duty attachment point....

then again...I'm better off spending on a great liferaft as my trawler couldn't survive in conditions that would need either....

 

[CaptTom]

A sea anchor is very useful if you lose power in even relatively mild sea conditions. Imagine getting some air in your fuel, and having to bleed the injectors while the boat is beam to the seas. Most people would barf all over the ER in those conditions. Even waiting for a tow can be a lot less miserable if everybody's not sick.

A drogue is useful if you lose steering. Fortunately that's only happened to me on small outboards, long ago. A makeshift drogue worked pretty well in those cases, while we worked on fixing the steering. As kids, the thought of stopping for repairs never occurred to us.

 

[psneeld]

lot's of things on a boat can be used to simulate either in mild to moderate conditions...it's severe that they are truly needed....except in my case hopefully.....

 

[LarryM]

lot's of things on a boat can be used to simulate either in mild to moderate conditions...it's severe that they are truly needed....except in my case hopefully.....

+1!!