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Old 11-09-2011, 04:57 AM   #1
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Too much anchor

I am considering replacing my old plow with a new Manganese Delta. The 35# shows to be for a 42-50' powerboat. We are in sand or mud anytime we anchor. Will run 25' of chain and the balance 5/8 line. Having the windage a Sundeck has, I would probably prefer to go with the larger 45# version, but the mechanical windlass would make retrieval a chore. Thoughts??
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:29 AM   #2
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RE: Too much anchor

I'm always in favor of bigger. If your concern is weight, how about a Fortress? My Fortress FX-23 has held my Krogen42 plus six other boats in a raft-up in 10-15 knot wind down at Offatt's bayou. Or maybe time for an electric windlass?
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:31 AM   #3
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RE: Too much anchor

Steve:* What windlass do you have?* If 10 lbs more of anchor is going to be a challenge, maybe you should up grade your windlass.* Or you could go with 20 feet of chain and gain some capacity that way.* Given the size of your boat and wind-age,* I would go with the 45lb anchor.
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:07 AM   #4
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RE: Too much anchor

Hey Keith, I have a Fortress that I use for overnight but it doesn't pull into the pulpit roller without just hanging down. As I recall- I have a Lefrans windlass. I insert a lever and crank back and forth that works great. Truth be known, my usual retrieval is to have the Admiral pull ahead as I guide her and after breaking the anchor out I pull it up by hand. This works fine with the 36# plow and the 37 Fortress. A new windlass is not in the budget right now. Question: My current windlass has a chain drum and a line drum, can't remember the proper salty nomenclature :smile:. If I were pulling in a 45# anchor, how would I transition from line to chain? Currently I have to unwind from the line drum, pull on a few more feet and then drop it into the chain drum. Then crank it in the remainder. There's got to be a better way.......
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:04 AM   #5
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Too much anchor

My 40 Albin originally had a 35 Delta (or maybe it was a 33) when I bought it. After my first season I ditched the 35 because I dragged a couple of times and went to a 44 Delta. No more dragging (all chain rode also).

Therefore I also suggest the larger anchor.

*

*


-- Edited by jleonard on Wednesday 9th of November 2011 09:04:55 AM
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:16 AM   #6
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RE: Too much anchor

Steve,

Sounds like you're situation is a little like mine. Limited anchor and rode due to limited ability to pull it up all coupled to lack of funds. That's how I got into all this anchor performance stuff. To make the transfer just get a little line w a bowline at one end and a hook (w spring loaded pawl) and when you get the rode up to the chain hook into a link that gives you enough slack so you can start the chain on the gypsy. As to the anchor you should get one that dos'nt have ballast as that's extra weight. I bought a small winch new for $425. that has lots of power (seems to) but it has only a drum. I pull the chain and anchor by hand. But my boat and rode is quite a bit smaller than yours. There are anchors that will give you more holding power without more weight. My XYZ probably does but I have'nt tested it in gale conditions yet so I can't really recommend it. It sets well though. And it's not the best on the bow either. Keith's recommendation is excellent as the holding power to weight is the highest of any anchor. You could retreive it like I do my anchors. When the anchor is 1 to 3' from the bow roller I lean over the side and pull it up behind the bow roller and over the cap rail on deck. Hardware for securing a Danforth to the deck is commonly available. Another that I'm quite sure will solve your problem is the Max anchor. wingspar (on TF) has one and was very happy*w it. I think they fit on the bow OK but are'nt very good looking. That's important to some. For a little more holding power just changing to one of the two roll bar anchors available in the US may suffice but I'd be looking at the Max or a Fortress if only the anchor is going to change. Also keep in mind that the Delta's holding power is excellent given a good set and lots of scope so good seamanship could very well substitute for more anchor weight but in many anchorages of small size or too many boats swinging room for long scope is not an option. Could you handle all chain and a 45lb anchor w your present winch?
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:49 AM   #7
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RE: Too much anchor

I would have the biggest anchor that the windless can pull with all chain.* Also for sand/loose bottom an anchor with a big surface area which the claw and plough might not have. I don't think there is one anchor that fits all conditions?
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:11 PM   #8
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RE: Too much anchor

Steve--- Your question is a bit like, "I really need a parachute for jumping out of my plane in an emergency but I don't really have a good place to stow it, so I'm thinking an umbrella will work just as well." :-)

Strictly to my way of thinking, particularly since experiencing first hand the results of poor anchor performance, I think a boat should be equipped with whatever it takes to keep it in place under the worst conditions the boater can conceive of encountering in the waters he boats in. For a boat the size and weight of yours--- remember, it's not just the wind that can un-set your anchor, the waves and the weight of your boat pitching up and down on a tight anchor rode will contribute, too--- I would not even consider a 35# anchor of the typical designs--- Bruce, CQR, Danforth, Rocna, Manson Supreme, etc. In fact I'm not sure I'd stop at even a 44# anchor but go at least to the next size up. If you have a really big Fortress and the bottoms you anchor in are suitable for this Danforth-type anchor, you can most likely get away with a lighter anchor.

If the bottoms you anchor in dictate a more multi-purpose anchor than a Fortress, then I would get the heaviest one your boat can accommodate without messing up the trim or being too unwieldy to stow. If your current windlass can't cope with this weight of anchor, then get a windlass that can.

With some exceptions, the anchor weights as recommended by the manufacturers tend to be too small for reality. This was certainly the case with Bruce when they were making small boat anchors. As Carl (Delfin) has pointed out--- correctly in my opinion--- the larger and heavier a Bruce anchor is, the more reliable it will be. The recommended size for our boat was 33#. So that's what we bought and it proved to be a bad choice. Had we been absolutely determined to make a Bruce work, knowing what we know now I would not get one for our 36' boat that was less than sixty or seventy pounds and preferably 100 pounds. This way the weight would make up for what I believe is the inherent deficiency of its design when the anchor is reduced in size for boats like ours. But our boat can't accommodate a 60 or 70 or 100 pound anchor. So we went to another design. The point being, don't go just by what the manufacturers say is the size for your boat.

You will get away with a too-light anchor of a less effective design on the end of a weak windlass in most of your anchoring situations unless you regularly visit exposed anchorages where stronger winds and waves are the norm. But like everything else, every anchor including a rock is 100% reliable until the day it fails to hold your boat. And usually that day is actually night or 3:00am when the winds pick up, your anchor starts to drag, and you're anchored off a close-by lee shore. Wishing you'd bought a larger or more effective anchor, or that you had a windlass that would get the anchor up at something greater than a snail's pace is not going to make the situation any less dangerous.

You've only got one chance to get your anchor, rode, and windlass combination right. Because unless you're Eric and change anchors and rodes on a daily basis (:-) ) what you buy is what you will have until the day comes when it fails you. Since none of us want that day to come, it makes sense to get the best setup for your boat and your anchoring conditions right off the bat.

Do you want to take off on a flight with a parachute or an umbrella on board?
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:48 PM   #9
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RE: Too much anchor

Hey Eric- that that is a ton of great information. And a great idea about transitioning to chain at the winch. I gotta admit my anchor design has a lot more to do with how it stows than how it holds :smile:. The plow nestles and self launches great. So I figure a similar design would be the best choice. On longer trips I generally keep the Fortress tied on and do as suggested and swing it up on deck. Problem is these trips are usually along the ICW going to Texas and we have lots of Gumbo mud that can make for a pretty grimy anchor. Same concern for a chain, could be lots of mud on anything inland. I suppose late my ideal set up would consist of a great anchor, all chain, electric windlass and a wash down system.
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:06 PM   #10
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RE: Too much anchor

Steve,

Since you use the word "ideal" I'd say no * ...the best system would consist of ideal parts. Winch - Hydraulic fisherman's reel winch that will accommodate any number of chain sizes, shackles and thimbles so you can choose the IDEAL rode to go w your winch. No splices, super heavy chain, extra heavy chain and heavy chain on the first 25% of your rode. And 75% nylon. Nice stretchy nylon. You'll save at least 100lbs of chain over all chain and this can go into the mother of all anchors w no more weight than all chain all the same size like Marin and most of the all chain guys here. Then you'd have a 125lb anchor w the same weight of anchor and rode that Marin has. On your boat I'd go w an 80lb Forfjord, 65 lb Bruce/claw, or other anchors of 30 to 44lbs. BUT those hydraulic winches start at $3000 and you'll need an hydraulic pump on a power take off on your engine. Marin has a really excellent electric winch but it's close to $3000. Ther'es lots of winches but you'rs probably just needs to be rebuilt. But for right now either modify your bow to accept the Fortress (if it's big enough - or get one bigger) or get a Super Max. The Super Max may be the best mud anchor there is but the manufacturer says it's good for all bottoms. But most all manufacturers say stuff like that but I'm impressed with what I see. When choosing your ground tackle you should consider the trim of the boat without any gear. If it's stern light and bow down your choice of ground tackle will be limited to super light. In this case the boat would be the major influence in the choice of ground tackle.*

Marin I think most anchor manufacturers boat size recommendations are much better than you imply. One needs to pay attention to the wind speed numbers. Some list their anchor weights to only 20 knot winds. And I disagree w your "only one chance" notion. You already took two big steps (not at the same time) yourself and it's likely you made small steps as well. I admit I'm an odd duck in that I like being on the road to perfection better than actually solving the problem of anchoring.*
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:00 PM   #11
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Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
...*I disagree w your "only one chance" notion. You already took two big steps (not at the same time) yourself and it's likely you made small steps as well.
You get plenty of chances assuming your boat survives each instance of dragging.* What I meant was almost everyone decides what they want to get based on input, reading, other boaters, whatever, and they buy it and put it on their boat.* And they will stick with that until they have an experience that convinces them they bought the wrong thing.

But when*your anchor starts dragging at night in a storm, you can't say, "Hold everything, nobody move"*and expect the storm to pause and wait*while you*run back to the store and buy a bigger anchor or whatever.* You're stuck with whatever it was you bought in the first place.* That's what I meant by you only get one chance to get it right.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 9th of November 2011 08:01:42 PM
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:07 PM   #12
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
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Marin I think most anchor manufacturers boat size recommendations are much better than you imply.
I*made that statement based on what I was told awhile back by the Bruce rep for the Puget Sound area.* He said that the Bruce sizing chart was based on "normal" anchoring conditions and did not take into account winds higher than a particular strength, which as I recall was actually fairly low.* If one wanted to size their anchor based on the possibility of encountering higher winds, the Bruce sizing chart's recommendations were all a size or two too small (in his opinion and experience).* At that time, he said the same was true of most of the then-established anchor types like CQR, Danforth, etc.

This was before the Rocna, Manson, etc. had made the scene.* I know the Rocna sizing chart at the time we were researching a new anchor made a point of saying their size recommendations were based on storm conditions, not "normal" conditions.* So perhaps the newer anchors have more realistic sizing charts or perhaps the charts for the old types have been revised.
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:09 PM   #13
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:

nomadwilly wrote:
Marin I think most anchor manufacturers boat size recommendations are much better than you imply.
I*made that statement based on what I was told awhile back by the Bruce rep for the Puget Sound area.* He said that the Bruce sizing chart was based on "normal" anchoring conditions and did not take into account winds higher than a particular strength, which as I recall was actually fairly low.* If one wanted to size their anchor based on the possibility of encountering higher winds, the Bruce sizing chart's recommendations were all a size or two too small (in his opinion and experience).* At that time, he said the same was true of most of the then-established anchor types like CQR, Danforth, etc.

This was before the Rocna, Manson, etc. had made the scene.* I know the Rocna sizing chart at the time we were researching a new anchor made a point of saying their size recommendations were based on storm conditions, not "normal" conditions.* So perhaps the newer anchors have more realistic sizing charts or perhaps the charts for the old types have been revised.



I agree here with you Marin. And you guys above the Mason Dixie Line have much more to consider when anchoring than those of us in the South on most any day. We just don't have the tidal range that you see. It's hard to believe that the anchor size recommended for our length boat is no heavier than it is. Perhaps it's like "ownership costs" of a particular car or piece of equipment. If you extend the maintenance interval long enough "your" product will be less expensive to maintain. Until the catastrophic failure occurs. Maybe for marketing purposes it is adventagous for a particular anchor to be "adequate" for a vessel that is actually much more than it is capable of keeping in place. And when the "catastrophic failure" occurs, you learn a very valuable, very expensive lesson!
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:43 AM   #14
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RE: Too much anchor

Steve, like Marin said....

"If the bottoms you anchor in dictate a more multi-purpose anchor than a Fortress, then I would get the heaviest one your boat can accommodate without messing up the trim or being too unwieldy to stow. If your current windlass can't cope with this weight of anchor, then get a windlass that can."

For what it's worth, my vessel is 34 ft and weighs in at about 8-9 ton, and I have a Super Sarca anchor which was the recommended size for my boat, and then up one, so I have a 22kg anchor which converts to ~49 pounds.* I would not ever have a lighter one, not of any make.* Your 42 ft boat really needs at least a 50 - 55 pounder to give most reliable results in my view.* I realise the winch to haul that is not cheap, but in many ways it's the most important item of equipment on the boat, right?

Sarca suggest this weight for your size... http://www.anchorright.com.au/produc...w-anchors?id=8

and for those interested in the Sarca specifically and why it is so good, take a gander at this recent video from recent sydney Boat Show.* A similsr demo sold me on it years ago.

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Old 11-10-2011, 06:42 AM   #15
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RE: Too much anchor

While we have never had a problem with our 60# CQR , Danforth or Bruce ,

I an going to try a 80KG anchor , to see id "one size " can fit all hassles.

The Hyd windlass wont notice.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:44 AM   #16
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RE: Too much anchor

Hey, why do'nt you guys just sink your boat. With the boat and the anchor on the bottom you'll not drag for sure. HAHA

Fred you better check to see if your stern's still in the water.

Peter that may be a bit of over kill on the weight but maybe not as I would have a 33lb Sarca and your boat's bigger than mine and a tad heavier. And I have'nt seen where you anchor. So that's Rex the anchor man. We talked on PM and I rather liked him. He suggested an anchor buddy (as he called it) or here in the US a sentinel or kellet. I made one out of eye bolts and 20lb lead weights like what they use on fishing marker/floats * ....The kind w the mast sticking up. I can run it down as a kellet is traditionally deployed (separate line) or attach it to the chain just ahead of the shank. Have'nt used it yet. I see Anchor Right has put numerous slots in the Excell like in the Sarca. I suspect that looses some holding power but I think Rex has probably tried them w/o the slots too. I like the Sarca too but I'm quite sure they still are'nt availible in North America. And I'm still against heavier is better over and above what is really called for for the job. If you did that w everything on your boat you'd have a very wet boat and perhaps a submarine. My dad had a lobster yacht built in Maine that was over built and over heavy. Was 36' w a 6-71 DD and it would barely make 9 knots.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:56 AM   #17
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RE: Too much anchor

Most would*agree FF, tripling*the anchor size will keep you from dragging. Which you don't do anyway with the current 60#ers.**
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:44 PM   #18
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
...I'm still against heavier is better over and above what is really called for for the job.
*No argument with this.* But sometimes what's required to do the job is a heavy anchor.* Particularly in cases where a big part of the job is to be able to punch down through a crusty surface (apparently a common challenge on the east coast), or hold the boat in potentially severe conditions.

I think*a boater who deliberately avoids weight in an anchor even though his boat can handle it and the weight may make the difference between staying put and wandering off somewhere else at 3:00am when the wind and waves kick up,*is living in a false economy.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda is meaningless when the boat is dragging toward the rocks.* Theory has a tendency to go out the window at times like these.* It's all well and good to say "weight is always bad" as a justification for going with the lightest anchor one thinks they can get away with.* But nature has a nasty habit of not really carying what one thinks she ought to do.* So it's better, in my opinon, to be fully prepared to deal with the worst possible conditions within the constraints of what the boat can truly*handle.

So this does not mean putting an 80 or 100 pound anchor on a 36-foot planing lobsterboat.* It also does not mean putting a*20 pound anchor on that same boat simply because "weight is bad in the bow of a planing boat."* If*the pursuit of*that theory subsequently endangers the boat in a blow, or worse, puts it on the rocks, the relatively minor reduction in*cruise*performance--- if there even is one--- from an anchor sized to hold the boat under more sever conditions suddenly becomes worth it.

But when that 36' lobsterboat is skipping it's little 20-pound anchor across the bottom as the wind blows it onto the lee shore it's a little too late to chastise oneself for putting the priority on the wrong thing.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:40 PM   #19
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RE: Too much anchor

They say, get an anchor so big everyone will laugh at you when you pull into port.
I have toyed with the idea of making a HUGE danforth style out of plywood, painting it galvanized color, and pulling into an MTOA rendezvous to see the reaction.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:47 PM   #20
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RE: Too much anchor

Whadiyu mean no argument from you Marin? Right after you say that we get 4 paragraphs of argument haha. Weight keeps the angle of the rode low at the shank and helps the fluke penetrate the bottom. After that it's the size and (to a certain extent) the shape of the fluke that holds the boat in place. Has almost nothing to do w weight. If your Rocna suddenly turned into titainium after you set it well it would hold just as well as the steel Rocna. Look at the Fortress. It's flukes have very little weight on the tips but unless it's grass on hard they dig right in and the fluke gets buried. Remember when I held tight in a 50+ knot gale in Allison Harbour for a day and a half on a 13lb anchor? That says it right there. Anchor design is where it's at but there is a lot of other circumstances especially the bottom type. But as stupid as it may sound FF has a point if one wants to anchor anywhere a ridiculously heavy anchor will probably be the best solution to seamless performance. So if we were all going to solve our anchor holding problems with an anchor twice as big as what's right for our boats what anchor would be best? Most of us would probably just get the same kind we now have but twice as big. Not me though. If I had to use a 55lb anchor it would be a claw. Come to think of it probably most others would too for the same reason in that it's easy to handle on the bow roller.*
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