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Old 02-24-2012, 07:16 AM   #81
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Too much anchor

Quote:
Rex wrote:
Hi Peter B

Thanks for your valuable analysis; its possible that you are more on the money than you think. (Assuming the trip release is at fault,) maybe its the design of the anchor and its dragging.

Peter like I said earlier in this debate, one should not make assumptions or statements unless one can quantify, your observation and whilst not proven conclusion on concave has made more sense than any comment I have seen over the last 5 pages.

FF Wrote; All the references you seem to show for your pricy jewellery seem to be MANNED 100% of the time.

I dont think a comment like that is worthy of an answer, I am sure if I said it was black you would say it was white, but you are wrong again, do some research. Im a bit disappointed that I made the assumption that you would have been a good candidate to trial my design. Im just not quite sure what your agenda is.
Do you really care; maybe you are just trying to redeem to the forum your level of intelligence, nothing wrong with that.

Regards.
Rex.
CEO Anchor Right Australia.
To be fair to FF..I think his agenda is like a lot of us old timers.* Some people still write letters and hate email...go figure

The US Coast Guard still uses huge chunks of concrete to anchor buoys...that design has been around at least 10,000 years...they don't seem to care and figure building big boats to handle those blocks must be worth it over using a different anchor design.

Many of us have been using old anchor types and are comfortable with them. We have seen anchor tests come and go with no clear cut winner as ALL the tests are limited in some way...most tests are.

So people are resistant to change from something that has worked for them and no one has clearly proven that another design will work in the same AND different situations than the anchor that's already on the bow.

The problem with the marine industry is there far more "claims" to be better than what most of us are willing to pay for or experiment with as our boating dollars are limited.* I've always said the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is a boat show (OK so our capitol building may be catching up fast).....so many of us take the wait and see approach.


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 24th of February 2012 04:23:36 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:40 AM   #82
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RE: Too much anchor

Hi Scott,

Thanks for you sobering comment, fact is I too are now classed as an old timer caught up in designing anchors, used most of the old designs for many years, so Iam caught up with new anchor technolodgy simply because I have been privy to designing, developing and testing, unlike you I know what we say we can deliver.

New anchor designs has come ahead in leaps and bounds, yes you are right with new anchor designs comes higher prices, I appreciate your comments as we have been around for 17 years in Australia and we experinced the wait and see approach from our fellow boaters.

Make know mistake Aussies are one of the biggest knockers, it took a long time to get recognition.

Don't take to heart some of my responses, remarks, forums is not my seen and I fail to have much tact, I just say it as I see it.

Regards Rex.

Ceo Anchor right Australai.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:02 AM   #83
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Too much anchor

Don't get me wrong either..I think the work you and others have done on anchors is admirable...I truly believe they are better in many respects...how much better???? I'm not sure and there's the rub.

Of course I tried the typical cheapo way out and tried to wrangle a deal...

Bottom line is...if there was clear overwhelming evidence everyone would probably switch...or if anchors were only 50-100 dollars..many of us would try...but at well over $600 a pop...most of us are thinking second EPIRB and rely on the old trusty anchor that served me well for 50 years and pops another some before that..


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 24th of February 2012 10:03:02 AM
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:26 PM   #84
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Too much anchor

"I can't sleep" she says. So where's the problem??

Your bride isn't on our boat !

*

The big advance in anchoring in the past 100 years has been the "lightweight" anchor.

*

Yachts "back then" would consider a 200lb anchor on a 40 ft boat mighty small, just for overnight.

*

Just look at an old Yachting , and see what was "normal" before Danforth and WWII.

*

Today folks think nothing of using a 35 or 40 lb anchor to do the same job , helped ofcourse by more stretchible anchor line.

*

That this anchor is better than that anchor is a bowl of crap, if you want to hold BETTER simply use a BIGGER anchor.

*

Some people* love tech , sitting in the head and monitoring the rudder bearing temp is cruising for some folks.

*

But saving 5lbs on an already light weight system ? Where is the up side?

*

Strolling the dock and screaming "we stayed annchored outside the breakwater last night with an anchor half the size of yours?"

*

WOW!

*

No thanks!

*


-- Edited by FF on Friday 24th of February 2012 02:35:36 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:31 PM   #85
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
Peter B wrote:


Seriously Marin - FCS get over that slot thing....
I will see if I can hunt up the fellow who told me he almost lost his boat on a lee shore due to the shackle sliding to the fluke end of his Manson and backing out his anchor that he needs to get over it.* He says he knows the shackle slid down because of the marks on the shank.* I'll tell him he's mistaken, the shackle never slid, the anchor was never backed out, that it never dragged without reseting along the bottom, and his near encounter with the lee shore is all in his head.

I'll let you know what his reply is although I may have to use a lot of asterisks in his comments :-)
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:44 PM   #86
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Too much anchor

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Rex wrote:1. * it is non-other than the difference between convex and concave, convex when retrieved comes up clean, concave comes up full off--- er mud,*2. CQR, Delta and many many more are back sides of a shovel as they are convex.**
*1.* I'm a lot more interested in how well my anchor holds than in how clean it is when I retrieve it.* What an anchor that comes up clean tells me is that its design easily sheds material, which is NOT what I want it to be doing when it's dug into the bottom.* This is the fudamantal problem with the CQR design and is, in my opnion, a deficiency in the SARCA's design.

2. The CQR flukes are not convex, they are concave.* Concave means the blade is curved AWAY from the material it is pushing against.* If you look carefully at a CQR--- acually, it's pretty obvious even if you don't look carefully--- you'll see that the flukes are just like the blade of a plow--- they are curved away from the material they are pushing.* I've included a picture to help you grasp the concept.

Finally, I stand by my statement that manufacturer's reps will say anything to spin their product into being the best, or at least worthy of being purchased.* I'm not trying to imply the SARCA is a bad anchor here, only that if it was made out of cheesecloth you would still be touting its wonders :-)


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 24th of February 2012 03:01:04 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:54 PM   #87
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RE: Too much anchor

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psneeld wrote:I've always said the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is a boat show
*I think you're* wrong there, Scott.* I think the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is at the alternating Paris and Farnborough airshows.* If you want to learn from the pros how to spin a negative into a positive, that's the place to go.

Our competitor is brilliant at this--- for example only they coulde come up with the notion that putting fewer high-yield business class seats in a plane (because theirs can't accomodate as many as ours) is a good thing for an airline.* But we're learning fast, particularly on the defense side of the business.

But boat shows are definitely a very close second.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:03 PM   #88
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:psneeld wrote:I've always said the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is a boat show
*I think you're* wrong there, Scott.* I think the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is at the alternating Paris and Farnborough airshows.* If you want to learn from the pros how to spin a negative into a positive, that's the place to go.

Our competitor is brilliant at this--- for example only they coulde come up with the notion that putting fewer high-yield business class seats in a plane (because theirs can't accomodate as many as ours) is a good thing for an airline.* But we're learning fast, particularly on the defense side of the business.

But boat shows are definitely a very close second.

*I would have thought that Congress would win this one hands down.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:21 PM   #89
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
JD wrote:Marin wrote:psneeld wrote:I've always said the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is a boat show
*I think you're* wrong there, Scott.* I think the greatest concentration of lies at any given time on the planet is at the alternating Paris and Farnborough airshows.* If you want to learn from the pros how to spin a negative into a positive, that's the place to go.

Our competitor is brilliant at this--- for example only they coulde come up with the notion that putting fewer high-yield business class seats in a plane (because theirs can't accomodate as many as ours) is a good thing for an airline.* But we're learning fast, particularly on the defense side of the business.

But boat shows are definitely a very close second.

*I would have thought that Congress would win this one hands down.

*Read my post...I did suggest the capitol building as competition!

*
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:34 PM   #90
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Too much anchor

FF Wrote; Strolling the dock and screaming "we stayed anchored outside the breakwater last night with an anchor half the size of yours?"

FF hang onto that anchor like it hangs onto the sea floor; youve got one hell of an anchor. Wow

Peter B Wrote
Seriously Marin - FCS get over that slot thing....

Marin Wrote;
I will see if I can hunt up the fellow who told me he almost lost his boat on a lee shore due to the shackle sliding to the fluke end of his Manson and backing out his anchor that he needs to get over it. He says he knows the shackle slid down because of the marks on the shank. I'll tell him he's mistaken, the shackle never slid, the anchor was never backed out, that it never dragged without reseting along the bottom, and his near encounter with the lee shore is all in his head.
I'll let you know what his reply is although I may have to use a lot of asterisks in his comments
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Marin I dont normally defend the opposition, but hey he says he knows the shackle slid down because of the marks on the shank? Every time you deploy the anchor the shackle slides to the rear of the shank.

If I was the opposition company with a problem like I would be slapping a big red sticker on the shank to*explain the down side if you dont shackle to the hole, further, that company, if what you say happened, could with no problem be sued as they have inbuilt a device that is proving dangerous.

The most problem I have with this rubbish about the unsettling of the anchor Re slot is this, how on earth did they get S/H/H/Power certification, and Lloyds at that, Like I said we had to go through three months of trials with various testing officers and Survey officers present to prove what you are saying would not happen, otherwise fixed shackle to hole or slot we would have never passed certification.

Like i said in my post, I think Peter B is on the money, more observation taken in the future to prove just what is happening, with as you have stated dragging concave slotted anchors.*

Marin Wrote;
This is the fudamantal problem with the CQR design and is, in my opnion, a deficiency in the SARCA's design.

Marin give yourself a break ,they tell us old folk we cant learn new stuff but I have made it very simple if you care to browse through our video page, not to convince you of performance, but concept and how it works, (cant doctor that one) www.anchorright .com.au

Marin Wrote; The CQR flukes are not convex, they are concave. Concave means the blade is curved AWAY from the material it is pushing against. If you look carefully at a CQR--- acually, it's pretty obvious even if you don't look carefully--- you'll see that the flukes are just like the blade of a plow--- they are curved away from the material they are pushing. I've included a picture to help you grasp the concept.

Gee Marin, are you really sure about that, Im not sure now weather your words are simply spin or you just believe what you say, well if you are right the Marine authority, anchor testing authority, and A.M.S.A. have all got it wrong.

My test certs are dust if*you are right*when it*comes to concept? and If you are right, I*still don't*know how I am going to grasp the concept.
Marin I must confess I edited this out earlier, to be*fair the simply terminology is convex for plowing concave for scooping.
Again I will make the point --difference why you should not confuse yourself with hoop new generation anchors, S/sarca is neither a plow nor a scoop, Excel is the same concept, you will never get your head around it unless you view the videos on our site.
*We are the only anchors on the market using this concept, thats why we are different. We get deep penetration without ploghing producing exceptioal holding power, then on retrieval holes slots break the suction and lows easy dispersion of mud, there is no spin in that.
Regards.
Rex.
CEO Anchor Right Australia.





-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:37:52 PM



-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:40:35 PM



-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:42:08 PM



-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:48:49 PM



-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 09:00:53 PM



-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 09:03:24 PM


-- Edited by Rex on Friday 24th of February 2012 09:14:16 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:40 PM   #91
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Too much anchor

PS, I wrote this post about the same time Rex was writing his by the looks, so it was not there when I started...but you have to admit we are consistent...

I wasn't going to get into this any more, but I have to ask just this one last question Marin. Did you actually read what I said last post, (carefully), and have you actually looked at my pics closely - thinking about the laws of physics involved? Then, after doing so, please explain, (thinking here of these people you know, who allege their anchor backed out because of the slot and nearly saw them wrecked on a lee shore), how is it a shackle can slide back up a shank towards the fluke, in a slot, (no matter how badly designed), when there a several tons of tension pulling it in the opposite direction?

The only way a shackle can be induced to slide back along the slot is when it is virtually in-line, virtually vertically above, and under very light tension - otherwise it won't - anything more and it jams in position, and just pulls on the shank, like any other end fixed anchor chain would do - simple as that. As to seeing the marks on the shank - sorry, but balderdash....I've been tripping my anchor deliberately for years, as I said before, and you cannot see shackle marks on the slot, so if they say they can...or if they actually found the shackle jammed at the wrong end, then it says something about the design of the slot, or the slot shackle combination they were using was wrong, (and it is important that coupling is correct and to manufacturer recommendations - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Rex), and therefore the anchor was prevented somehow (jammed most likely) from re-setting as it should as soon as tension went on it as the wind turned and it became a lee shore....

In a bay tidal currents are never straight in and straight out, and wind angles similarly drift around, so the only way an anchor slot could trip an anchor is in the freakishly unlikely event of the wind being so light, that whatever wind/tide combination moved the boat, it drifted right back over the anchor in perfect alignment with the shank towards the fluke end, and without any sideways pull, and nothing on the bottom deflecting the shackle end of the chain more than a few centimeters. How likely is that...and in those conditions - if it ever happened - who cares - you would not even know, and if the wind came up, any decent roll bar anchor, like your Rocna or a Sarca, would re-set so quick you would not notice. Just think of the physics and look at the pics, and tell me that ain't so....


-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:45:28 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:01 PM   #92
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RE: Too much anchor

Hi PETER,

You are correct, fitting of the shackle should be as manufacturers instructions, whether it be a slott or hole if the shackle is jaming simly because it is to large, or to small it will effect the concept of any design, the shackle is like the ignition on you car, if it is not free to turn it simply wont work.

Until this forum Pete I didn't know you from a bar of salt, if you are idle I might have to give you a job, nice accurate comments with no spin, rare these day's.

Regards.
Rex.
Ceo Anchorright Australia
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:14 PM   #93
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RE: Too much anchor

Can I take that as a yes for a shout for a beer at the Cove Show in May, Rex...? If so, you're on...a beer can still taste nice even if the air is full of lies...I mean flies....
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:35 PM   #94
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Too much anchor

Quote:
FF wrote:
The big advance in anchoring in the past 100 years has been the "lightweight" anchor.** Yachts "back then" would consider a 200lb anchor on a 40 ft boat mighty small, just for overnight.** Just look at an old Yachting , and see what was "normal" before Danforth and WWII.*

(I wonder how long it took for Danforth to gain credibility - my insert)

Today folks think nothing of using a 35 or 40 lb anchor to do the same job , helped of course by more stretchible anchor line.

That this anchor is better than that anchor is a bowl of crap, if you want to hold BETTER simply use a BIGGER anchor.
Quote:
_________________________________
Quote:
Fred, I was going to bail out at this point, but what you said, above does hold a fair amount of truth.* As you say, a lump of concrete does as a mooring - heavy.
Quote:
So I felt moved to make one more comment, basically to give a reason why it is worth people reviewing what they are using, even though, as you say, the majority stick with what has worked for them.* Even now, the majority of pleasure boats here in Aus are sporting CQR/Plough types for example, "because they have always worked" - might have been a bugger to get set often however, (this I know), but often in the conditions these people anchor out in they don't even realise it did not set.** And any anchor with a bit of weight, after sitting there on a softish bottom, with the movement back and forth with the tug of the boat tends to dig itself in more anyway.* It is how fast they set, then grip the bottom when one goes to up-anchor after only a few hours on the pick that really tells the story.
Quote:
Marin has also made a good point in the past that one's anchor always works well - until one time it doesn't, and that one time can be critical.*
Quote:
However, the main point is this.* Sure, with an adequately weighted anchor, it has always been said, the main job the anchor does is locate the end of the chain, and resist it sliding along the bottom, the weight of the chain then does the rest in the vast majority of occasions.* Most people deliberately only anchor out in light conditions - often the wind drops to effectively zero at night in many places, and their anchor is never ever really put to the test - until, that is, one night the light conditions change to unexpectedly heavy conditions.....sometimes with scarey results.* But you are right, up till then any weight would have done.* So what are we really looking for in a general purpose anchor to make it justified to look further?* One that sets quickly, easily and reliably, in all conditions and as many bottom types as possible, and with maximum ease of use & stowage/deployment, and that also holds well.* That's what we are after - hassle-free anchoring.* That is the feature many anchors lack.* Some are clumsy shapes and difficult to stow, even if they hold well.* Some are bitches to set, but once set hold quite well.* Some set quick, but just don't hold well, but look sexy on the pulpit and stow well.* Few have all those desirable characteristics together.* That is why it is worth it for the search to go on.....*
-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 24th of February 2012 07:44:08 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:05 PM   #95
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RE: Too much anchor

Hi Peter. Resistance is a great thing it will sought out B.S. in the long run, as I said at the beginning, it is an actual user that started this friction by simply doing what any good forum member should do, pass on info to make what he believes safer boating, not the manufacture, its all good.

What I have noticed is given the fact that there are many thousands of Sarcas out there you are one lone wolf my friend, now I could have rallied replies from many users but that is not my style, I have had a couple of PM from the trawler forum telling me how good our product is but have refrained to get in involved? Wonder why.

Going by what we have seen in the past from opposition companies, the amount of testimonials coming through every forum was enough to make one think the world was being taken over by new generation anchors.
I say that given the fact you still come across the odd happy new generation user but hey, I have heard nothing more on this forum except for the rebirth of old generation anchors.

Maybe there is a link called dial a friend then I can have as many customers as I want to create spin, sorry for being cynical but the onslaught not long past seems not as dense, just an eco .
Dont worry fellers I am not coming over to try and change your world, this thing with Seacor will depend on how they find them, and the response they get then after, so far the response has been good, hopefully we will be sending another order soon as they only have a couple left.

Remember this when exploring the possibility of purchsing a new anchor, if the manufacturer tells you, you will never drag this anchor,it is spin don't buy it.

Peter B Be sure to be sure I will definitely catch up with you at the boat show.
Regards to all,
Rex.
CEO Anchor right Australia.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:11 PM   #96
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
Peter B wrote:
The only way a shackle can be induced to slide back along the slot is when it is virtually in-line, virtually vertically above, and under very light tension - otherwise it won't - etc .......
I've often wondered if I could deliberately*induce my shackle to slide up the shank when I wanted to trip the anchor.* I have a great deal of difficulty believing there is any scenario where it could accidentally trip because the shackle slid up the shank.* Peter did a great job of explaining my exact thoughts on the matter.* I know that our Sarca hooks up fast and solid - the whole boat actually vibrates when it hooks up.* And it holds up to 1/2 throttle - likely further but I've never bothered trying.* I absolutely can't say that about the CQR that hangs next to it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:24 PM   #97
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RE: Too much anchor

Hi Bob, goodonya - another believer...and in the Americas as well. Good to hear all is well with your ground gear. I'm sure the others would love to hear from others besides me and Rex re the Sarca. At the end of the day, we all just want to help each other enjoy boating better.
Yeah - it's a wet Saturday here, otherwise I'd be out doing it and not on here so much, but heh...it fills in the time. I'm half expecting anchoring guru, Nomadwilly Eric, to join in soon. I think he's now got to where he's going, but probably still unpacking.

Rex, you're on, and don't worry mate. We're all good friends on here, and we all enjoy the repartee. No-one, (well almost no-one), takes anything personally, and we can all end up agreeing on other things, or even if it's just not to agree...

Don't yah just love these anchoring biffos tho...? Eric, where are you - you're missing all he fun....
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:54 PM   #98
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RE: Too much anchor

I,m not sayin much about all this except I know my anchor works a treat.
late anchorage on the winward side of Big Woody Island in Jan with a 35 knot NW blowin. Both the Boss and i were a little worried but it all held together.
My Sarca ExCel held in there. Love it.
No slot , but then again I am not a fan of slots in anchors.
Never laid an anchor around an oil rig or platform with a slot, doesn't mean it is not right but that is just my 10 cents worth.
Now back to work we have a barge to tow.

Cheers
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:33 AM   #99
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Too much anchor

I wonder how long it took for Danforth to gain credibility - my insert

Probably as landing craft were able to be recovered in adverse conditions , rather than simply being discarded.

Winched into breaking waves off a beach, till in deep enough water for the engine to work.

In soft bottoms surface areas if probably more important than the ability to be pulled deeper.

Down 2 ft in ooze or down 12 ft in ooze , its still ooze.

Any* manufacturers claim that some big buck watch fob will work at all times in all bottoms is on par with a politico claiming he will "end waste fraud and corruption".

About that great bridge in Brooklyn ,,,,,,,,,


-- Edited by FF on Saturday 25th of February 2012 04:35:26 AM
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Old 02-25-2012, 04:10 AM   #100
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RE: Too much anchor

Dear old FF...

Fred, I think your middle initial must be C...for cynic. Ah well.....
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