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Old 11-11-2011, 06:10 PM   #21
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RE: Too much anchor

I agree that design has more to do with holding that weight alone.* But in some situations--- the crusty bottom surface being one of them-- weight helps the anchor penetrate.* And I believe it was you who kept saying if we'd had a 44# Bruce instead of a 33# Bruce on our boat it would have held better even though 33# was the size Bruce said was right for our boat.* (And a 44# Bruce woudn't have made a lick of differnece anyway.* A 66# or 88#*Bruce on our boat might have.)* Carl's made a very good point several times about the bigger and heavier a Bruce is, the better it will hold.

So for some type of anchors, weight does mean something.

I've said all along the Fortress is solid proof that weight alone is not necessary for good holding.* If it was, the Fortress wouldn't work.* That's a perfect example of design over weight in the bottoms the design is suited for.

As to your question of what would we pick if we were going to get a really big anchor, I'd probably pick a spade-shaped anchor.* Not necessarily a Rocna, Sarca, or Manson because in really large and heavy sizes the rollbar may not be necessary.* I still wouldn't pick a Bruce because I think it's a poor design until you get into a weight measured in tons.* But anything where the area of the blade is directly opposed to and resists*the force pulling on it would be good.* As opposed to something like a CQR or Delta where the flukes are streamlined in the direction of pull.
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:00 PM   #22
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RE: Too much anchor

No anchor is good for all bottoms. The roll bar anchors can get plugged w mud and need to be brought up and cleared before setting can be tried again. I think the SARCA is probably the closest to an all bottom anchor we have and "we" here in the US actually do'nt actually have it. You and Carl are into this anti-scaling but I do'nt buy it. You said what anchors you would'nt choose but you did'nt make a choice. I'd feel pretty safe w a 100lb Kedge. Choose now.
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:07 AM   #23
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Too much anchor

I don't know where you get this bit about the rollbar hoop getting plugged with mud. Have you ever actually seen a 44# or larger Rocna/Sarca/Manson anchor? The diameter of the rollbar hoop is such that there is no way it can be plugged with mud. The diameter is too big to support a sheet or wad of mud in the middle. A very small rollbar might. And the spade fluke itself can bring up a lot of mud, as did our Bruce. But in the huge amount of material I read about Rocnas, pro and con, nobody ever said anything about the rollbar having a plugging or clogging problem. We have used ours in very soft mud in Pender Harbor where the fluke brought up a dumptruck load of muck. But the rollbar hoop was perfecly clear other than mud coating the rollbar tube itself.

Everything scales when one item changes size and the other doesn't. Wind tunnel models scale--- the air molecules that flow over them are the same as the molecules that flow over a full size airplane. This is why we have banks of supercomputers to take wind tunnel results and "scale" them up to 1:1 ratio. Otherwise a lot of wind tunnel data would be meaningless. Anchors in the bottom are no different. You can change the size of the anchor, but you can't change the size of the sand grains or mud bits or adhesion properties of the muck on the bottom. That stays the same whether the anchor weighs five pound or five tons. And since an anchor's performance is teh measure of what it does in the bottom, it stands to reason that as you change the size of the anchor, the anchor's performance will change, too, because the bottom isn't changing along with the anchor.

I said I'd probably select a spade-type anchor. The variable would be whether or not a rollbar would be of value as the anchor size got considerably larger.* But I believe* a spade-type fluke is the most effective in the widest varieties of anchoring situations.





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 12th of November 2011 01:09:08 AM
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:25 AM   #24
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RE: Too much anchor

I got the mud stuff from an anchor test in "Sailing today". They said:
The Scoop's downside for us is that it would require a new bow roller, but they have a further negative attribute in that they compact the seabed within the scoop - possibly due to the constraint of the roll bar. This compacted mass of seabed is retained by the anchor when it's lifted, increasing the weight of the anchor and discouraging it to reset should it ever drag. Furthermore if, when the anchor is initially dropped, it becomes clogged with weed, then the only way to retrieve the situation is to lift the anchor, clear the weed and try to reset it - not a task I fancy on a cold, wet night.
*
I did'nt come up w that on my own. Did'nt think about it till I read that. And of course it has'nt happened to me w my Supreme but I have'nt even anchored in mud w it. I've probably only used it about 6 times. *Sometimes you're like a little goat w your little feet jammed into the ground determined not to move an inch. You say "spade type anchor" * * .......OK I'll put you down for a Spade anchor. And about the scaling * ...I think ya got me there. You're right. "Everything scales". *That's true. Everything does scale. But (I'll be the goat now) I'm not sure a 15lb anchor and a 65lb anchor is enough "scale" to experience a real world effect. May be though. Probably does to some degree w Carl's monster anchor. *So I'll give in poo pooing the scale effect. But I do'nt think the regular guy on this forum needs to consider it while looking for an anchor. Did you see on the other thread where the Spade anchor people weighed in here on TF? *Nice response.
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:22 PM   #25
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Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
I got the mud stuff from an anchor test in "Sailing today". They said:
The Scoop's downside for us is that it would require a new bow roller, but they have a further negative attribute in that they compact the seabed within the scoop - possibly due to the constraint of the roll bar.
*Never heard of a Scoop anchor so I looked it up on the web.* It is a generic term that includes not only rollbar anchors but also claw-type anchors---- like the Bruce.*

Never say never, so I suppose it's possible with a very small rollbar anchor to pack the rollbar hoop with mud but I don't believe that it's anything to worry about with the larger sizes.* As I say, we've never had any issue with this in any bottom material--- including mud of various densities-- and I've never even heard it mentioned in all the research and subsequent reading I've done on rollbar anchors.* Your quote is the first I've ever seen.* However, the Rocna does indeed bring up a lot of bottom materal on the fluke if the bottom is soft.

I noticed in looking up "scoop anchor" that Rocna now offers a "fishermans" anchor.* It is a standard Rocna but with a slot in the shank like a Manson and Sarca.* However, Rocna describes this anchor as a "specialty" anchor for fishermen who anchor and then move, anchor and then move, during rhe course of a day.* The slot provides a way to easily trip the anchor should it become snagged on a rock or reef or bottom debris, which is a higher possibility given where most sport fisherman anchor.

I think the slot is a clever idea for this type of repetitive, short-term use.* But for anchoring a boat for longer periods of time, particularly in places where the boat will be moved around the anchor by winds and currents or both and perhaps get moved more than 90 degrees off to the side of the anchor, I have read too many independent accounts of the rode shackle sliding to the fluke end of the anchor and backing it out of the bottom.* I remember reading one testimonial that blamed the grounding of the boat on this very occurance.* So great idea for short term anchoring like fishing, not so good for long-term anchoring.* If we anchor in a location that is known to have, or* we think might have, debris on the bottom (like Squirrel Cove in Desolation Sound) we use a buoyed trip line on the anchor.

Eric, as to your which anchor question, I looked at the Spade website and have decided I don't like them.* Their fluke is too narrow at the base and they appear to be totally dependent on the weight and leverage of the shank to rotate the fluke tip down into the bottom.* Because they have nothing to aid this rotation or make sure the anchor ends up on its side if it lands wrong or if the weight of the shank is not sufficient slice the point of the fluke into the bottom the anchor will simply slide along the top.* So I stand by my "spade-type" comment.* The actual Spade does not look like an optimum design to me.* I think a spade-shaped fluke is the way to go, but the Spade anchor does not appear to me to be the way to go there.

So if you absolutely have to have a brand name I would be inclined to stick with the Rocna or Sarca in a real big size. I'm in a position to be able to get a Sarca if I thought I wanted one, so that anchor is a viable choice for me.* I think the Manson is a less-effective design than either the Rocna or Sarco so I would not consider one (in any size).







-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 12th of November 2011 01:26:09 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:41 PM   #26
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RE: Too much anchor

HAHA I saw that slotted Rocna on West Marine. I guess they figured they did'nt want anybody buying a Manson just because it has a slot. Scoop??? I'm not a dictionary so I'm not sure about the history of words but they showed a picture of a Supreme chocked w mud so I assumed they were talking about the Rocna and Supreme. The Sarca probably has much less of a problem because it's RB is so large and has such a small dia RB.*

Re your picture ..how can you stand all that forest of tubes and crap ahead of the helmsman. Here's what it should look like. (see pic)

Double size anchor? I think everybody on here that dos'nt have a claw would opt to go w a claw w an anchor that big. That would be 88lbs for you Marin. And that would be in addition to all your chain. You'd probably need special windshield wipers. I'll confess that if the anchor tests had'nt said the Rocna's short scope performance was not very good I'd have bought one instead of the Supreme. I liked the sharper fluke, outboard edges of the flukes and the overall looks of the thing. Also I did'nt like the slot on the Supreme in that I did'nt think it went back far enough. I put my trip line under the RB. But it looks like the Rocna and Supreme are about exactly the same performance (very high) in all the anchor tests and you place so much stock in the tests I'm surprised you should put the Supreme down that far. I think it's far down in your mind * .......like the Bruce. You know Marin I'm absolutely addicted to giving you flack * * .......That's not actually true ..but I would'nt say it's all false either HAHA

PS I've refinished the skylight and have a bow roller a bit bigger.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:47 PM   #27
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Too much anchor

Eric, when are you going to get a bow pulpit so you have something to hang/lean on with now that you've finished with the nice skylight?


-- Edited by markpierce on Saturday 12th of November 2011 03:49:44 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:38 PM   #28
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Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
*

1. Re your picture ..how can you stand all that forest of tubes and crap ahead of the helmsman. Here's what it should look like. (see pic)

2. That would be 88lbs for you Marin. And that would be in addition to all your chain. You'd probably need special windshield wipers. I

3. I'm surprised you should put the Supreme down that far.
*1.* I don't even see that stuff when I'm driving.* It's like a hood ornament or the diagonal brace tube across the windshield of a Cessna floatplane.* After the first few minutes you don't even realize it's there.* And I suspect that Plain Jane bow of yours is one reason you cant' seem to find an anchor that works for you.* If you had a pulpit and a proper windlass your anchoring would be a push-button process as it is with most of the rest of us and you could find the best size and weight of anchor, stick it on the bow, and forget about it other than when you used it.

2.* I think you are WAY too hung up on excess weight.* You keep saying a heavy anchor will put the bow of our boat underwater.* So explain this--- when we have friends out on the boat and we are underway there are times when I (aprox 250 lbs), my friend (aprox 250 pounds) his wife (approx 130 pounds, and our dog (50 pounds) are right up on the foredeck looking at something.* So that's 680 pounds that's walked up to the foredeck.* And the effect on the boat?* Nothing.* Sure the bow goes down a bit but not enough to even notice.* When we've had four people on the foredeck at the dock and I've been on the dock and happened to look at the boot stripe to see what all that weight was doing, the difference in trim was the width of the boot stripe, which is four or five inches wide.* No excess weight on the bow, the water is at the* bottom of the boot stripe. Six hundred plus pounds on the bow, the water is almost at the top of the boot stripe.* Big deal.

Other types of boats of a similar size are probably much more susceptible to that kind of extra weight on the bow.* Carey's lobsterboat probably is.* And there may be boats of the same size that are less susceptible.* But a boat like a GB doesn't change much at all.*

So saying that changing from a 40 pound anchor to an 80 pound or even a 100 pound anchor is going to make some sort of huge difference has no logic when putting an additonal 680 pounds of people and dog on the bow doesn't make any perceptible difference in running trim or speed.* I'm not saying the trim isn't altered by having all those folks and a dog up there, I'm saying there is no noticeable difference to anyone on the boat.* The speed doesn't change, no water or spray comes pouring aboard, the bow angle doesn't appear to have budged in relationship to the shoreline or horizon.* Nothing happens.

3.* From all the reviews we read at the time as well as testimonials by people who used the anchors the differences between the Supreme and the Rocna, while not physically very obvious, apparently affected the performance of the anchors.* And according to the reviews and comparisons some of the design features of the Supreme put it at a disadvantage when compared to the Rocna.* As I recall the main disadvantages of the Manson were the designs of the skid plates and the balance of the anchor.*

Perhaps Manson has since changed the design of his anchor--- this was some seven or eight years ago and I have not paid much attention to what the anchor manufacturers have done since then.* But at the time we were looking for something to replace our Bruce the reviews and tests almost always put the Rocna's performance above that of the Manson Supreme.* Not very much above, but somewhat.*

One of the big clinchers for us, however, was the major disadvantage presented by the Manson's shank slot.* Using it runs the risk of backing out your anchor, but having it there makes for a very deep anchor shank since you still need enough metal in the shank to keep it strong PLUS the additional metal to accomdate the slot.* Seemed a pointless excercise to us so we went with the Rocna which at the time was made in New Zealand and Vancouver, BC (ours) so was years before the China debacle.

Were we in the market for an anchor today, I would still proably arrive at the conclusion that the Rocna design was the best all-around, but we would want to make damn sure their manufacturing was up to snuff.* There were no such worries seven-eight years ago.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 12th of November 2011 06:45:48 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:41 PM   #29
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Too much anchor

Never.

Willy's got a nice bow and I have no intention of making a mess of it. Nor do I wish to stick on a structure out several feet ahead of my boat just waiting for the wrong moment when I smack it ...probably damaging my boat. If it was a weak link that would snap off before boat damage * ...fine but the anchor jerking on the rode that's attached to the boat will cause quite a problem when it breaks off in a storm. Lastly but most important to me is that I like fwd visibility a lot. So much so that on my previous boat I removed the fwd bow rail as I thought it was ugly and (again most importantly) ruined the view. Here again is what I think the view from the Wheelhouse should look like. No rat's nest on my bow.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 12th of November 2011 06:52:15 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:48 PM   #30
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Too much anchor

No question it looks great, Eric. As does your skylight.* (The second picture looks like Von Donop but it proabably isn't). All I'm saying is that the pulpit rail, pulpit, windlass, etc on the front of most boats I don't think is even seen by the person at the helm once they're used to it. Like I said, I don't even notice it's there unless I look at a photo like the one I posted. Then it's almost an "Oh, that's what it looks like up there" kind of thing.* It's all what you get used to.

When I started flying floatplanes I flew Cessnas at first and they all have thick black torque tubes running diagonally across the windshield in front of the pilot and passenger.* This is part of the float kit---it's not needed on wheelplanes.* When I first saw it a foot or so in front of my face I wondered how the hell I was going to able to judge anthing out the windshield and I worried about it quite a bit.* On my first lesson it bugged the heck out of me during taxi out and takoff.* Then I started getting absorbed in the lesson and I suddetly realized about 30 minutes in that I wasn't even aware of the tube anymore.

The stuff on the bow is the same.* I don't even see it anymore.

Also a couple of the "tubes" in my photo are actually our anchor trip line which we leave rigged when we're just moving from one anchorage to anohther as we were when the photo was taken.* So even if I did notice the stuff in front or me, it normally wouldn't be quite as cluttered as it appears here.





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 12th of November 2011 06:57:40 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 05:58 PM   #31
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RE: Too much anchor

On the practical side we've only hit one log and I want to be able to see the next one BEFORE we hit it. Not to mention all the big masses of kelp. Look at my pics and see that where all the usual stuff is on the bow of a trawler I have nothing but a good clear view.**
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:03 PM   #32
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
Never.

Willy's got a nice bow and I have no intention of making a mess of it. Nor do I wish to stick on a structure out several feet ahead of my boat just waiting for the wrong moment when I smack it
*A bow pulpit needn't stick out much at all, not even as far as the anchor roller.* Oh well.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:17 PM   #33
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RE: Too much anchor

The only significant view block is the fat guy in the green shirt.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:26 PM   #34
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Too much anchor

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nomadwilly wrote:
On the practical side we've only hit one log and I want to be able to see the next one BEFORE we hit it.
*Well, we've not hit anything floating on the surface yet in 13 years although we've been around a lot of stuff in the water. Even when debris is partially hidden in waves or by tricky lighting, we've never failed to see things in front of us in plenty of time to avoid them.* Like I said, neither one of us even sees the pulpit rail and pulpit anymore.* And even though they are obvious in the photo, in reality, even if you were aware of them, they don't block the view of the water ahead.* If they weren't there, our view forward would be unchanged due to the high bulwarks and sheer of the hull.

Plus a still photo is just that--- a moment in time.* In reality, we are always moving a bit, the boat is always moving, he water is always moving, so the little bit of water ahead that is blocked from view by the pulpit or anchor is not blocked for more than a second or so.* We have never--- either in our boat or the boat we chartered--- felt that we couldn't see what we needed to see.* And my guess is that's going to be true of just about everyone on this forum.

As I said, it's all what you get used to.* If you sold Willy and bought a boat configured like the typical cruisers most of us have, in no time at all you wouldn't even notice the pulpit and rail and anchor and whatnot that was up there unless they truly did block your vew significantly.* And I've not been on a boat yet that had this problem other than the Bluenose II where the helmsman's view of the water in front of the vessel was blocked by the whole vessel :-)





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 12th of November 2011 07:28:09 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:20 PM   #35
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Too much anchor

You think I'd be fine w all that stuff in my face huh? *NO. Remember that I told you on my last boat I removed my bow rail? And your saying I'd get used to it is not the point even if I had the opportunity. Not if I was free to take it all down. On my boat even the roll bar is unacceptable. But on your boat a lot of tubing is acceptable ...for you. If I was to take all that stuff off your boat and send you out for a month and then put it back on you'd probably not like it at all. Just say'in. But I would'nt even leave the float w these boats that have fenders racked up on the fwd bow rail. That's nuts. I do'nt see how they can see where the're going. And I would'nt have a Willard 36 (even though I love the boat) because visibility from the lower helm is limited even if there's nothing above the cap rail. The helmsman is just too low to see over the bow. I really like visibility.*

PS Mark Is that that bow rail right in the line of sight to the horizon?












-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 12th of November 2011 09:24:25 PM
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:18 PM   #36
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Mark Is that that bow rail right in the line of sight to the horizon?
*No.* That photo was shot from just above the chart table.* From the below photo, you'll notice that the pilothouse view forward has a much higher perspective.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:26 PM   #37
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RE: Too much anchor

Here's a typical forward view from the pilothouse.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:35 PM   #38
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RE: Too much anchor

Yea Mark just what I thought. Bow rail right through the horizon.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:40 PM   #39
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
Yea Mark just what I thought. Bow rail right through the horizon.
*Oh, the horror!
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Old 11-13-2011, 12:35 AM   #40
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RE: Too much anchor

Quote:
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If I was to take all that stuff off your boat and send you out for a month and then put it back on you'd probably not like it at all.
If you did what you describe all that would happen is that I wouldn't see the rail and anchor after you put it back, just as I don't see them now.* Pesonally I think not being able to focus on what's important because stuff that's unimportant is in the way is rather limiting.* But everyone's different so whatever works for you is what you should do, obviously.* Be stupid to set up a situation that bothers you just because it doesn't bother anybody else, right?* So it's a good thing you have a boat that doesn't have a bow rail or a pulpit or you'd be bumping into everything in the water like a ball in a pinball machine :-)
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