Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-16-2015, 12:20 PM   #81
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Well Peter you've got to admit people will look at that slot and see that it's obvious that the shackle will run down the slot and trip the anchor. Anybody w an ounce of sense can see that. Even people like Mark and Marin. And they have several ounces of sense.

Mark how many times has your Claw not set in an anchorage that it's set in before? Probably never. There's no reason to belive there's more than the slightest possibility of your anchor not re-setting. And there's already slight posibilities that your anchor won't hold your boat. The results of anchoring are not absolute like Marin wishes them to be. There is a chance you won't remain vertical today in the shower yet you will shower. There's a chance some igit will run a red light while you are going through that intersection and there's a chance the train warnings won't work as you go merrily along at speed over the tracks. There's probably a greater chance of the above going wrong than your anchor not setting or re-setting.

Personally I think the shackle will not pass UNDER the shank while the rode is horizontal on the sea floor. And right at the shank even w my short scope ways the chain right in front of the shank will (I believe) be on the bottom. And when the rode pulls backwards the attach point and the shackle will remain where it should be and pull the anchor shank around to it's new "heading".

Don't you trust your friend w your life? Peter has been doing this for 11 years and I assume he's anchored more than three times. I'm not 100% sure about this myself but I'm 999% sure. I admit it looks like bad things will happen but I have faith in my friends. I use the anchor alarm anchoring even without using a slotted anchor so my faith in anchoring is clearly not 100% or absolute even though I've never dragged .. to my knowledge. Besides I'm getting tired of that trip line. Also it's too bad there wasn't slotted anchors in the veering anchor test.

Marin it's probably a matter of both vulnerability to being sued and motivation to sell to skeptics like yourself .. and for myself re the past. Absolutes are nice but are not a part of the real world. The real world is reducing the odds of bad things happening to a minimum and/or an acceptable level. I can see where you think the slot increases the odds of bad things happening but I'm going to use the slot. If I don't report back ................
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 11:14 PM   #82
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Coupla final points here. Having to set a trip line...compared to not having to...is a a PITA, as it turns a simple operation into a more complicated one, both in the going down, and the coming up. And that's aside from the added risks of the trip line fouling a prop...your or someone else's.

Same deal with a bolt in the slot. While normally no problem, because the anchor does not foul - usually - as we all know, Murphy's law works overtime when boating, so you can put your money on it, the one time you really need that tripping slot to work, you will have it bolted out. Trying to pick the right time to use a tripping line and float...or not... faces the same issue. Murphy's law will dictate when that occurs...not you...so your only recourse is to either use the tripline every time...or never...and take your chances on losing the anchor. Versus...in the case in question, leaving the bolt out of the slot...and taking the chance the anchor might be freakishly tripped by it...and then not reset virtually immediately...something which has not happened to me anyway, in about 600 anchorings, and in waters where the tidal flow reverses twice a night, (as Eric also pointed out), and being able to retrieve said fouled anchor, when and if that occurs, with little more sweat than a routine retrieval.

I ask you, which you pick...Pat or Mick..?

PS. I do however have to admit, the slot in the Manson version does 'look' more like the shackle might travel more easily back up the slot, and it does strike me that the claimed episodes of this happening reported by Marin have all been with Mansons, so I await Eric's experience with real interest.
__________________

__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 11:28 PM   #83
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Peter--- There are more ways to back out a fouled anchor than a trip line or a slot. We carry a couple of them on our boat in addition to the trip line, which in our experience anyway, is a snap to deploy and retrieve.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 01:10 AM   #84
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Peter--- There are more ways to back out a fouled anchor than a trip line or a slot. We carry a couple of them on our boat in addition to the trip line, which in our experience anyway, is a snap to deploy and retrieve.
Absolutely, I know there are, but they are a bit of a fiddle, requiring specially prepared 'devices', (have you tried them, and did they work easily on a dark & windy wet night), and often several 'tries', and if the weather is turning nasty, and you want out of there asap…that is not the time to have to do that. Trouble is Murphy's law doesn't care about that...'s'all I'm sayin'...
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 01:16 AM   #85
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Never had to try them. Our trip line works a treat.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	89.7 KB
ID:	40216  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 01:40 AM   #86
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Eric--- I don't disagree with your statements. But perhaps it's from flying or working where I work for the last bunch of years or it's from my pessimistic French father and Depression-era mother, but I'm a huge believer in doing everything possible to reduce the chances of something going wrong to as near zero as I can get them. Which means I spend a fair amount of time-- perhaps too much time--- trying to anticipate everything that could go wrong and then figuring out a way to keep it from going wrong. It's a handy trait to have in the profession I'm in, too, so it's been a beneficial attitude for my entire working life so far.

So when I first saw a slotted shank anchor, which would have been a Manson Supreme, my immediate thought was, "That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. It's just asking for trouble to do that."

And sure enough, I started seeing a few posts on the T&T list about Mansons being backed out by the shackle sliding down the slot. "Smart, they included a hole," I thought, and as I've stated, the Mansons I've seen around here and in BC have been shackled to the hole.

Then came Sarca with it's slot-only shank. Sure, you can jam a bolt in the slot and prevent the shackle slide problem, but if you're going to do that then why have a slot in the first place? As Peter says, there is no way to anticipate when you might want to use the slot for its intended purpose, so how do you know that the night you put the bolt in the slot won't be the night you need the slot?

So you can use the slot all the time as Peter does, and have no problems. Until you do. That fact that you CAN takes it out of my comfort zone of reducing risk to as near zero as I can get.

Now if the Sarca was the only anchor of this type on the market, well, I'd buy it and put the bolt in the slot or weld it closed and be happy as a clam. But since there are two good alternatives, one of which I feel is a superior anchor design anyway, I can cross one more risk off my list.

That's how I feel about it, anyways. Others can make their own decisions regarding slotted shanks and how to best use them.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 07:56 AM   #87
TF Site Team
 
dimer2's Avatar
 
City: Houston
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Baobab
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,193
My thoughts. The Manson Supreme has a rock slot, for use in areas with a higher probability of getting stuck. Normal setting is through using the provided hole. I use only the hole but do use a rather stout trip line and shackle through the slot for use in areas such as rivers that are known for stumps or other snags. Does it work?....no idea as thankfully have never snagged it.....yet.


From the Manson site:
Is the sliding slot a guarantee for retrieving my anchor every time from rocky or coral seabeds?
No, the sliding slot is not a guarantee but it does increase dramatically the probabilities of getting your anchor back when fouled. Occasionally the chain gets wrapped around the coral or rock, hence why you can't retrieve your anchor. If the seabed is extremely rocky we recommend a grapnel or reef anchor instead.
__________________
No one who achieves success does so without acknowledging the help of others.
dimer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 03:53 PM   #88
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Just an update,

Finally tried the Supreme w/o the roll bar. Didn't work. Got a little resistance at first but it must have turned upside down. Dragged it 75' or so ... the rode acted like the anchor was kinda bouncing along.
Only time I've tried it and it won't be the last. It was blow'in 25 and not warm so I threw out the old Danforth.
I intend to try it more the way it is but I have a mod planned that may work as well or better than the roll bar .. I think.

For the first time ever my modified XYZ would'nt hook up either. Tried another mod that was evidently a mistake.

Think I'll try my 33lb Claw. Should hold my little boat easily.

So .... the anchor mod business has been poor.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 04:54 PM   #89
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmason View Post
Did you hear the one about the 3 anchors that walked into a bar.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
I'd bet their names were "Hook","Line",and Sinker"

Al

ROFL!

Before reading all the anchor threads here and on the other forum, I had thought that there were Danforths and plows. Almost "Period."


A few other oddballs (Bruce, Claw) and leftovers (fishermen's, etc.)... but hardly ever saw any of the former, and only some of the local watermen seem to have the Fishermans mounted...

Oh, well, plus the Fortress, a put-together/take-apart adjustable -- and much easier to lift -- version of the Danforth.

I hadn't really paid much attention to the differences between a plow (convex fluke) and a scoop (concave fluke). I thought a Delta and a CQR were only different from each other in the number of moving parts, and that a Spade and an Ultra and whatever Mantus or Manson or whatever equivalents were all pretty much the same.

And some of those are kinda nifty with that whole take-apart/put-together thing (Spade)...

But then Rex went off about how the Excel isn't a plow -- even if it does have a convex fluke -- because it buries rather than digs constant-depth furrows (like a farm implement)... so it seemed there's more to it than just the vex/cave thing.

And then the rollbar, a righting tool, perhaps without much further impact on how (if) the fluke works. Unless it inhibits further burying, as some have said somewhere or other... (I'm so confused.)

Well, not confused, really. As I walk the docks here -- admittedly a small sample -- I see Deltas and Danforths on powerboats, and CQRs, the occasional Bruce or Claw, and Danforths on sailboats. Sometimes the "Danforth" is really a Fortress, but not so often. Don't think I've seen more than about 2 Rocnas mounted, over the last several years. (About as common as a SuperMax -- us and one other I saw this year.) I've seen no other brand of rollbar anchor mounted.

Sometime earlier this year, I surveyed the local Fleming fleet; can't remember details perfectly, lots of bling, but I don't remember much other than some Ultras (I didn't know what they were, at the time) and several Fortress models.

Seems like folks here pay lots of attention to new anchors... and folks on the docks... don't.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 05:08 PM   #90
Guru
 
hmason's Avatar
 
City: Westport, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Magic
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Europa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,895
I see Mason Supremes and Rocnas very frequently.

Howard
__________________
Howard
Magic, 1996 Grand Banks Europa
Westport, CT and Stuart, FL
hmason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 06:09 PM   #91
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Rocnas are becoming more common in our harbor.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 06:36 PM   #92
Guru
 
Conrad's Avatar
 
City: Calgary
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Rocnas are becoming more common in our harbor.
Same here; I've only seen one Manson and it was passing through.
__________________
Conrad
Berthed in
Campbell River BC
Conrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 07:34 PM   #93
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
More Rocnas than Supremes here but more Fortresses than Rocnas. 28 to 32' boats.
Marin I looked at the 32' GB on our float and I think it has quite a bit of flare and a finer entry than I had thought/remembered. Re the wet boat thing perhaps the nearly plumb stem enters into it? The "cutwater" is well fwd.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 07:44 PM   #94
Guru
 
N4712's Avatar
 
City: South FL
Country: U.S.A
Vessel Name: Oliver
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 47 Hull# 12
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,613
Eric looks like you gained another door stop till it gets welded back on.
__________________
Thanks, Oliver
M/V Oliver
Nordhavn 47 Hull #12
N4712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 10:18 PM   #95
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
It's Marin that uses perfectly good anchors as door stops .. not me.

And I have no intention of welding the RB back on. I have a better righting appendage. But won't be as strong as the roll bar. I was hoping I wouldn't need to use it.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 10:28 PM   #96
Guru
 
N4712's Avatar
 
City: South FL
Country: U.S.A
Vessel Name: Oliver
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 47 Hull# 12
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
It's Marin that uses perfectly good anchors as door stops .. not me.

And I have no intention of welding the RB back on. I have a better righting appendage. But won't be as strong as the roll bar. I was hoping I wouldn't need to use it.

Eric, there was a reason they didn't sell the Supreme with a removable bar, do you think they'd also put an inferiorly designed self roghting appendage? Just trying to save you're anchor from looking like some of the "art" in down town New River. (My SFL friends should get that one )

Anyways I wish you the best of luck with it.
__________________
Thanks, Oliver
M/V Oliver
Nordhavn 47 Hull #12
N4712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2015, 10:41 PM   #97
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
I'm going to try it as is in better conditions before I go to the appendage .. and yes the appendage will look a bit like hippie art.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2015, 02:32 AM   #98
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Eric-- None of the Ken Smith hulled GBs have much flare to the bow.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	84.4 KB
ID:	44711  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2015, 06:58 AM   #99
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
Trip lines are a delight , only need to be rigged at the start of the season and take care of themselves.

Only DANGER , yes it happened to me ,,, is someone will come after dark and use it as a mooring and pick it up and tie his vessel to the trip line.

WE use a small red ball, that is harder to hook , rather than something that looks like a pick up stick.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2015, 12:13 PM   #100
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Eric-- None of the Ken Smith hulled GBs have much flare to the bow.
Marin,
You say they don't ... I say they do.
But my only reference is the 32GB on our float.
Looks to be average flare for a trawler.
Lots of older boats have much less flare than the 32.
Some fishing boats have almost none.

In your pic the hull's in shadow and the flare can't be seen. Haha one could say your boat has no flare at the stem. Where I saw significant flare on the 32 was 6 to 9 feet aft of the stem. The 32 is a woodie and I lust a little as I walk by. The owner has a Willard 40 for sale but he's made no mention of selling the 32.
__________________

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012