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Old 03-03-2012, 10:48 PM   #1
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Hi guys, not wising to beat this issue to death, but I was down checking the boat today, and mindful of the interest others have expressed re this rather novel and new anchor concept, (especially as it is apparently about to become available in the North America), but tempered perhaps by the possibility of an anchor with slotted shank being at risk of self-tripping at a bad moment, I clipped my anchor to the samson post and had a liitle play with it.*

What I found was what I sort of expected to find by experience of using it for now about 8 yrs.*

Back to the the slot...the 1st pic is looking at it from behind, showing how the longer than usual U-shackle sits in the slot with the shackle bolt through the slot - NOT the U-shaped end - in that configuation it would slide too easily.* The way it is here, any off-line tension tends to lock the shackle in place because the slot is square-edged, and slightly rough.* The shackle only must be stainless.

This is why the pull has to be from above and in line with the slot for it to slide forward to the fluke end to enable the trip when fouled.* This is demonstrated in the 2nd pic where I slid it down the slot about 1/3rd way and then exerted enough pull on the chain & shackle at a forward (~ 50 degree angle) away from the bow, it was pulling the whole boat towards me against the breeze, yet the shackle did not slide down the slot to the fluke end, but locked where it is.* This held good for all angles except directly in line with the shank.* In a real life situation, that means the whole anchor would have been rotated and reset itself as wind or tide effect clocked round, well before any self-trip effect could occur.* Thought you might find these interesting.


-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 4th of March 2012 04:42:41 AM
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:04 AM   #2
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The SARCA SLOT

Nice try :-) Unfortunately out of the water tests like yours do not duplicate what happens in the water with the boat surging, bouncing in waves, tension coming on and off the shackle, the rode angle changing constantly, etc.

I'm gonna continue to put more credibility in the testimony of boaters who've had their anchors backed out by the shackle sliding down toward the fluke end of the shank. There haven't been many of them, but in my book it takes only one to render the whole slot idea undependable. And since it's undependable, why have to figure out how to accomodate that very wide (tall) shank if you're never going to use the slot?

Don't forget, you brought it up. :-)


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 4th of March 2012 03:04:35 AM
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:41 AM   #3
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Ok..ok...I thought that bait would bring you out Marin...perhaps I should have headed the thread up "watch the doughnut, not the hole", (yeah, why not it's my thread)...but hey...others might find the more detailed discussion interesting, and coming from me it is not coming from the designer/manufacturer, for what that's worth. But my only reason for persevering here is not blind faith, or just because I have one, but because I have lived with one 8 yrs, and over time become so convinced of the effectiveness of the design I just feel a sort of 'missionary' need to share the news. Call it corny if you like, but I don't mind....

To address your specific negative, I would have thought it pretty likely that if it won't slide down a nice clean dry slot, it would be even less likely to when covered in bottom grit, sand, mud etc. Frankly, all I can say about these alleged trip and drag cases you keep referring to, (and boy I'd love to speak to them to get the full facts), is, firstly it was with the (sort of knock-off) Manson design, and secondly, even so, I doubt it failed as they say, but because they had stuffed up some way, either with the wrong shackle - or on the wrong way round, and it somehow jammed at the end and therefore prevented the re-set which, (even with Manson) should have occurred. You are familiar with the story of the bad workman I'm sure...

Just look at the 1st photo carefully...note the shackle end actually has to be raised to even be able to slide down the slot. How likely is that with umpteen kg (lbs) of chain, mud, etc holding the chain on the bottom, even with considerable tension on the chain...? Then add the added friction of huge tension on it locking it in the slot even if the u-shaped end of the shackle was lifted enough to clear the end of the shank, and you have...well..I put it to you, a hugely unlikely scenario.
However, I doubt even that will convince you, but others may be prepared to be a bit more open-minded...maybe.?
Hey, there's not a lot wrong with your Rocna, so don't concern yourself. Same basic principle, just digs up more seabed, that's all. Oh yes, and doesn't have the slot...maybe one day they might even appear with one of those too...nah...I agree, unlikely...Peter Smith has a thing against slots as well - maybe because he didn't think of it first - didn't stop Manson mind you - they just went for concave fluke to get round patent rights...

Sorry - no offense, and some day I'd love to have a laugh over a beer with you about all this...
Any chance you'll be in Brissy sometime in the future..?

PS.* Marin, this tall shank issue.* Frankly I don't thing, weight for weight, the shank is any taller than the equivalent part of the Rocna shank.* I forgot to measure it, but I'd say it is no more than 12 cm top to bottom right at the fluke.


-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 4th of March 2012 04:47:49 AM
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:36 AM   #4
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Peter I appreciate your efforts but where anchors are concerned logic and theory are always trumped by personal opinion. I'm real happy with my Sarca so I'm a receptive audience. Others less so. I'm also real happy I didn't buy a Rocna but not because I don't think its a decent anchor. I didn't like the people involved with selling them and I decided not to give them any of my money. My decision was no way a reflection on what I perceived as the holding ability of their anchor. Now that I've got a Sarca of course I think the design is superior.
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:00 PM   #5
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Just want to share with the board that my new Delta has done fine. It has not come loose even once.
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:02 PM   #6
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Course, as you can see by the shipping label, I haven't actually deployed it yet:biggrin::biggrin:
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:44 PM   #7
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

I have little doubt that the SARCA is a fine anchor and will hold in most bottoms. My problem with it is that it's really ugly! The bow roller needed to house it is also ugly! To me, it's like wearing brown shoes with a tuxedo. Now, as a yachtsman (defined by Moonstruck) why would I want to put that thing on a fine looking boat? :cynic:mfg:

*

"Force anchors....For the discriminating yachtsman."

(What do you think, Mahal? Does this post fit my profile?)


*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Sunday 4th of March 2012 06:48:13 PM
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:31 PM   #8
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

The Sarca Excel is not too bad looking.

*

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Old 03-04-2012, 06:37 PM   #9
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

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dwhatty wrote:
The Sarca Excel is not too bad looking.

*

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:21 PM   #10
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

That is why my Ex-Cel is gal not s/s
It's there to work not make the bow look pretty.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:19 PM   #11
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:*"it's like wearing brown shoes with a tuxedo."
Quote:
What`s wrong with that? (I`m a bit colorblind).
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Seriously though, how did you plate those merino sheep horns with stainless steel? They look great!
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And to PeterB, well done. BruceK
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:15 PM   #12
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Peter B wrote:

1. To address your specific negative, I would have thought it pretty likely that if it won't slide down a nice clean dry slot, it would be even less likely to when covered in bottom grit, sand, mud etc.

*

2. Just look at the 1st photo carefully...note the shackle end actually has to be raised to even be able to slide down the slot. How likely is that with umpteen kg (lbs) of chain, mud, etc holding the chain on the bottom, even with considerable tension on the chain...?

3. .maybe one day they might even appear with one of those too...nah...I agree, unlikely...Peter Smith has a thing against slots as well - maybe because he didn't think of it first - didn't stop Manson mind you - they just went for concave fluke to get round patent rights...

4. PS.* Marin, this tall shank issue.* Frankly I don't thing, weight for weight, the shank is any taller than the equivalent part of the Rocna shank.* I forgot to measure it, but I'd say it is no more than 12 cm top to bottom right at the fluke.


*1.* Water and mud can be great lubricants.

2.* There is no guarantee the shank and rode will be buried in the bottom.* Depends on the bottom, the pull, the set, and a whole lot of other factors.* So a chain can be "clean" right up to the attach point.* And when the boat pulls on the rode from 30, 50, or whatever feet higher, which vertical direction does the shackle go in its notch at the end of the slot?* Hint: Not down.

3.* I believe Rocna now offers a small slotted anchor.* From the one mention I've seen of it in a catalog or website I recall they call it a "Fisherman" anchor, and describe its purpose as being for fishermen who anchor to fish, then pull up the anchor, move, re-anchor, fish, pull up the anchor and so on.* In this area (don't know about your part of the world), this kind of fishing is generally done quite close to shore or near rocks or reefs or even in kelp beds.* So the chances of fouling the anchor are high.* So for this kind of use, a slot makes good sense, as I've said before, regardless of the brand name on it.

4.* The Sarca shank is WAY taller than the Rocna shank (or any other non-slotted anchor of the same size)* And it's tall along its whole length.* At least "normal" anchors with their tapered shanks will fit at least partway under the bail or keeper if not all the way.*

The attached photo that I took earlier today of a sailboat not too far from our temporary slip is of a Manson I believe, and while its configuration is quite different than the Sarca, the tall, slotted shank illustrates the problem.* Except Mr. Manson, apparently realizing himself the potential problem posed by the slot, provided a separate attach point for the rode shackle.* I've see a number of Mansons in our marina and in BC and every one of the ones I've examined has the rode shacked to the hole, not the slot.*

And some of them have had to remove the bail or keeper on the bow or pulpit to accomdate the too-tall shank, which means there is nothing substantial preventing the anchor or the rode from jumping the bow roller (some people have rigged bungees to keep the anchor in place.

No anchor is perfect, and every anchor has its deficiencies.* If the case of the Sarca, in my opinion it's that too-tall shank with its potentially dangerous slot.* Put a Rocna (or other type of anchor) shank on the Sarca fluke and you might come close to the perfect anchor, I don't know.* But for me, at any rate, that big, slotted shank would be a deal-breaker if we were in the* market for a new anchor.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 5th of March 2012 12:28:52 AM
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:25 PM   #13
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:
*

*

"Force anchors....For the discriminating yachtsman."

(What do you think, Mahal? Does this post fit my profile?)


*
I certainly agree with you, Walt, that of all the anchor types out there, the Bruce (or equivelent knock off) is the most aesthetic of the bunch by a long shot.* In tems of looking good on the bow I think it wins hands down.* It's almost aerodynamic in its shape.

And if one actually uses it, at least under non-arduous conditions (I'm talking here about the smaller sizes like 33#, 44#, and so on) it will most likely work just swell as an actual anchor, too.

But as bow pulpit jewelry, there's none better in my opinion.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 5th of March 2012 12:32:51 AM
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:16 AM   #14
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The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Marin wrote:
"The Sarca shank is WAY taller than the Rocna shank (or any other non-slotted anchor of the same size)* And it's tall along its whole length.* At least "normal" anchors with their tapered shanks will fit at least partway under the bail or keeper if not all the way.* And some of them have had to remove the bail or keeper on the bow or pulpit to accomdate the too-tall shank, which means there is nothing substantial preventing the anchor or the rode from jumping the bow roller (some people have rigged bungees to keep the anchor in place."

I find this issue you keep raising a real puzzle Marin, because I purchased my hinged bow roller extension before I got the Sarca, because the original roller, (a lovely bronze thing I have kept actually), had no bail or keeper, and occcasionally the damn CQR did flip out on me.* The extension is hinged, with a roller bail, and was just a standard off the shelf, assembly I bolted inside the original assembly, it was just a lucky exact snug fit.* It is not the special Sarca product, yet as you can see, the Super Sarca fits under it right the way to the fluke end when fully retracted, and fits snugly against the bail - I have since removed the roller as it was superfluous.

"No anchor is perfect, and every anchor has its deficiencies.* In the case of the Sarca, in my opinion it's that too-tall shank.....Put a Rocna (or other type of anchor) shank on the Sarca fluke and you might come close to the perfect anchor...."
Quote:
It exists Marin - it's called the Sarca Ex-cel.* See David's pic above - that's it..!
Quote:
And that's the one which would indeed look pretty on Walt's boat.* I absolutely agree the Super Sarca is agricultural in appearance, but it just does the business, and its looks are in keeping.
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Ok - you've all been very patient, I'm going to drop this for now.* Maybe if Nomadwilly wants to chime in later....
-- Edited by Peter B on Monday 5th of March 2012 07:25:01 AM
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:41 AM   #15
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Marin wrote:* It's almost aerodynamic in its shape.
*

*That's the reason I don't have a Bruce anchor. *I am afraid at 27 knots that I would get too much bow lift.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:16 PM   #16
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Peter B wrote:It exists Marin - it's called the Sarca Ex-cel.* See David's pic above - that's it..!
I don't think so.* The Ex-cel looks like a Stealth version of the CQR, which as far as I'm concerned is the least trustworthy of every anchor on the market other than those really weird ones like the "Hydro-ball" or "bubble" whatever it is.* I don't want anything to do with an anchor that's streamlined in the direction of pull.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:51 PM   #17
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Marin wrote:
And if one actually uses it, at least under non-arduous conditions (I'm talking here about the smaller sizes like 33#, 44#, and so on) it will most likely work just swell as an actual anchor, too.

But as bow pulpit jewelry, there's none better in my opinion.
:jawdrop:
*
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #18
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:Marin wrote:* It's almost aerodynamic in its shape.
*

*That's the reason I don't have a Bruce anchor. *I am afraid at 27 knots that I would get too much bow lift.

*Don, just add a lift-generating spoiler to the transom to compensate for the extra bow lift.* I'm sure dwhatty could gin up an example.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:58 PM   #19
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
FlyWright wrote:Moonstruck wrote:Marin wrote:* It's almost aerodynamic in its shape.
*

*That's the reason I don't have a Bruce anchor. *I am afraid at 27 knots that I would get too much bow lift.

*Don, just add a lift-generating spoiler to the transom to compensate for the extra bow lift.* I'm sure dwhatty could gin up an example.

Healhustler is da go to man for marine go fast add on design. His work on Eric's Willy was superb.*
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:04 AM   #20
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RE: The SLOT - or watch the doughnut not the hole

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:Marin wrote:
And if one actually uses it, at least under non-arduous conditions (I'm talking here about the smaller sizes like 33#, 44#, and so on) it will most likely work just swell as an actual anchor, too.

But as bow pulpit jewelry, there's none better in my opinion.
:jawdrop:
*

Well, there's no denying a Bruce will work fine under most conditions.* The problem occurs when the conditions aren't "most conditions."* This was when our Bruce failed us, not once but several times.* So it had to go since our boat was not fitted by the manufacturer with the optional Weather-Wave-O-Matic control unit.* We have to take what comes so we want an anchor that can do the same.
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