Shackle bolt in shank or chain?

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Peter B said:
Ok, fair comment, but here as an example is my set-up, done especially for the Super Sarca in this case, because the pin must be through the slot in the anchor shank for reasons previously stated.

To get around the issue you raised Rain Dog, of not being able to get the ends of the shackle through the chain, my first pic was when I was still using a swivel, so it went through that ok. I have now, listening to others on here however, dispensed with that, which proved no real loss I must say, and so in the second pic I got around it by using a slightly oversized shackle through the chain, then the anchor shackle through that. Works well, and simpler, especially as the swivel required a second shackle anyway, and that was looking a bit tired, so now there's a nice new shiny larger one in its place, sans swivel. I seize (mouse) my pins with galv'd wire and a cable tie.
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Peter why not just the last chain link through the long anchor shackle? Will the shackle pin ends go through the chain link?
 
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psneeld said:
Also why I assumed anchors usually have an elongated hole in their shank (Like Larry's photo) to pass the eye of the shackle...not just the pin.

If they wanted just the pin, I would think a round hole would be best so the shackle couldn't rotate enough it impart a prying motion on the shackle, just shear(?) on the pin.
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This was covered in post #1 and 11.

However the side load on the shank/shackle using the pin in the shank puts the pin in sheer load but it's in sheer even all lined up. The side pull problem potential is that it develops forces that are acting to pry the shackle ends appart. Of course the pin then goes into tension load and prevents the "prying" force from loading the shaclke in that way. The pin then is taking loads that it probably was designed for. Using a pin w a cotter key in the end would be very questionable. I've never seen this done and assume the threaded pin is engineered for the tension load created by the side loads from a rode and anchor shank mismatch .... ie not lined up.

So I see no structural downside for the shackle or pin w the pin in the shank configuration.
 
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Rain Dog said:
This is what I use too.

But as to the original question of which way to attache the shackle, I worry that if you put the body of the shackle through the chain (as pictured in post #1), your shackle is way undersized for your chain. All the shackles I am have personally used will not fit that way if you are using a shackle as strong as your chain.
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Rain Dog,
I bought that anchor new and the shackle was an option. I liked the shackles so well I bought several of them. The anchor manufacturer really liked them and I'm almost positive they are HT. Just can't remember.

He wanted me to find a fishing boat w several hundred hp to try and pull the 18lb anchor out after a good set. So he had great faith in both the anchor and the shackle. But it was my anchor that would have been lost. And I didn't want to ask someone to go that far out of their way so in the end told or hinted strongly that he should do his own testing.
 
I disagree with a lot of shackle loading assumptions here...and can't even be sure of my own as I am no engineer.


As posted...probably until near working load, maybe even breaking loads are met...will it matter? I don't know. Like many factors in anchoring, the shipper can and often is the weak link right from selecting when and where to anchor.


But I know most things used in rigging are designed to take straight loads and are mated (mostly by design) so that straight loads can be achieved. If impossible, going larger helps...but mostly trying to attain the straight pull is the answer.....I highly suspect the threads in a shackle aren't designed to hold anything...just keep the pin in.
 
manyboats said:
Peter why not just the last chain link through the long anchor shackle? Will the shackle pin ends go through the chain link?
Click to expand...

No Eric, they won't. Otherwise I would have just done that. But to get a shackle that would makes the shackle too small for the loads. Several others have mentioned this same limiting factor in trying to achieve this, so often one ends up needing a swivel to link them, as they have larger loops, or a second shackle as I have.

But here's another thought for all those concerned re asymmetrical loads, twisting and pulling the ends of the shackle apart if the pin is through the shank.

Just think... if the pin of the shackle, which is straight, is through the loop of the chain, with the loop or U of the shackle through the anchor shank hole/slot, tension will pull the chain link along the pin to one end or the other anyway - it certainly is not going to stay nicely centred on the middle of the pin - so, inevitably, even with straight longitudinal pull, there will be a force tending to distract the leg of the shackle away from its mate anyway, either from the pin head end, or the threaded end. :D
 
Have thought about it and went out and played around with anchor chain and shackle.

On my set up, and others I have used...but not all..... I do think one way is a little better.

I will stick to my guns (usually because I DO think about my posts long and hard) including the point that others have made...probably makes little difference even near max load and usually my point that I never hope to get anywhere's near fully testing my ground tackle.
 
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Larry M said:
We have high test chain and found alloy shackles fit the link. 1st Chain Supply is just one manufacturer. I think Crosby also sells them.

1st Chain Supply - galvanized alloy steel shackles! Now you don't have to order oversized end links to have shackles that match the strength of your chain. The pins on the alloy shackles below will fit inside the last link of your chain and still be the same strength or higher than your chain.

https://www.1st-chainsupply.com/chain/g40_windlass_chain.htm
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Yes. SS shackles are usually weaker than proper alloy made ones. The wrong shackle pretty well moots the discussion about which way to mount the connector. Then, did I see another weak link such as an inferior swivel in a picture?

Last but not least, matching chain and pin dimensions allow the largest, multidirectional loads and strongest shackle. That is why Flywright's picture is the right way. :hide:
 
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OK Tom I'll give ya this one.

I'll agree it's more correct even though many anchors come w a round hole at the end of the shank. I noticed the CQR comes w a round hole. But the Manson plow comes w a slot. I looked on my computer at WM and FS and observed about 85% of the anchors found on trawlers are slotted. Presumably the slot is more expensive to make assuming the slot is made by a milling machine and not a punch. And I think that assumption can be made.

The slot, presumably is put there to allow the passage of the pin ears sideways through the slot. Also the slot allows rotation of the shackle head in the slot. It's not clear that there is an advantage to the rotation function but it's "fairly" clear the shackle rotation may be put there to allow the shackle rotation.

Overwhelming evidence? Nuff for me. I'm a convert.

PeterB if you Don't like the connecting chain link off to one side of the shackle pin it would be easy to insert a few flat washers (even nylon) to center the chain pull on the shackle pin.
 
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Uneven pulling of the rode to the side stressing the shackle is of no consequence, the shackle is very strong and can easily take it, as long as it is not a tiny little thing, and it matches the chain it is attached to. I think I used a copper wire to secure the pin in case it works loose. It has never loosened.
 
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sdowney717 said:
Uneven pulling of the rode to the side stressing the shackle is of no consequence, the shackle is very strong and can easily take it, as long as it is not a tiny little thing, and it matches the chain it is attached to. I think I used a copper wire to secure the pin in case it works loose. It has never loosened.
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If working load is much less than breaking load...how does NOT using it as intended (twisted load, prying action, stress on threads) all factor in?

As I have previously said...I hope to never even come close to working load...but those that are posting "maximum strength"...then I don't think a twisted shackle is "of no consequence".
 
In industry like cranes ect rigging a shackle may be much more sorted out and there one could probably find the actual best way to use a shackle. On much larger anchors such as found on ships I'm quite sure most anchors are rigged to have the pin through the shank that has a round hole in it's end.

I'm sure the max strength is achieved w the shackle in line w the tension .. in our case the rode and the load applied to the center of the pin. Another thought on that is that when high loads are applied to an anchor shackle it will be in line w the anchor. But if the shackle pin was through the chain link w/o washers the center it a sideways biased load will result on the shackle arms. On Al's post #19 one can see that on our type boats that angle/bias would be quite small. Never seen a shackle rigged w washers to insure that that alignment happens though. I remove my anchors from the rode every time I use them so it would be a little extra effort if I did that. I could blame it on PeterB though.
 
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Here's what the pros say...

Shackles (Rocna Knowledge Base)

On this site, they show it both ways.

How to Construct an Anchor Rode | Boating Magazine

anchorrode1.jpg
 
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I consider Rocna to be a biased source and over zealous promoter of their product that was once produced w unsuitable material. The blame for that rests on Peter Smiths shoulders. I'll never buy a Rocna product or buy into their promotional material and the above is clearly such.

Find a better source of information.

But as per post #38 I have concluded that the pin in the chain is the preferable rigging. The difference is worth talking about only in that greater understanding of boating and specifically anchoring emerges from the discussion.
 
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manyboats said:
I consider Rocna to be a biased source and over zealous promoter of their product that was once produced w unsuitable material. The blame for that rests on Peter Smiths shoulders. I'll never buy a Rocna product or buy into their promotional material and the above is clearly such.

Find a better source of information.
Click to expand...

Eric, it sounds like you have a strong bias, too. You've got some serious blinders on that cause you to ignore sources of professional information. I sincerely doubt any anchor manufacturer would recommend connections to his anchor that would be detrimental to the performance of the anchor he's selling.

Thanks for your advice, but I'll continue to consider professional sources for technical information in areas in which they have considerably more experience than I.
 
Al,
You went easy on me. Thanks
People are still buying Volkswagens too.
 
manyboats said:
PeterB if you Don't like the connecting chain link off to one side of the shackle pin it would be easy to insert a few flat washers (even nylon) to center the chain pull on the shackle pin.
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Yes, but who does..? :whistling:
 
psneeld said:
Have thought about it and went out and played around with anchor chain and shackle. On my set up, and others I have used...but not all..... I do think one way is a little better.
Click to expand...

And that way was...? :confused:
 
Peter,
Never seen it but it would even up the tension on each arm of the shackle too.

psneeld is in the pin in chain camp. Unless he's converted like me.
 
manyboats said:
I consider Rocna to be a biased source and over zealous promoter of their product that was once produced w unsuitable material I'll never buy a Rocna product or buy into their promotional material and the above is clearly such. .
Click to expand...

Geez, and I just bought a Vulcan with QA / QC supplied my good friends at Canada Metals. What a fool I am.

Next thing you know my Aluminum anchor made by Fortress will rot away or my anchor shackle be installed upside down. I'm not allowed to use a swivel for fear of facing Marin's wrath. BBB chain is inferior for reasons I cannot grasp.

Maybe I'll go cruising and once again take a badly needed hiatus from all these perplexities. :thumb:
 
Having been around production rigging for most of my career (not a rigger, but I have flown my share of audio arrays). On chain motors, shackle pins always go through the chain to let the dynamic load hanging below to find its center. TBH, there is a lot of contributions to this thread that really don't matter very much (not to belittle yall's contributions at all). Well before a shackle failure or chain failure, the anchor would break out of the bottom (IMHO). Good shackles are extremely strong. That's why they have been around so long and are so widely used. We bought one that was rated the same as our chain (4500#). Does it matter what way they are installed? Probably not. However, I am following what every rigger I have ever met has done... Pin thru the chain.
 
Chris,
In the upper Rocna link the pin is through the shank in the pics and here in the Rocna text .....
"Some anchors will not accept the head of an adequately sized shackle, being designed for the pin instead. This necessitates the use of two shackles, connected body-to-body with each other, and the pins through the anchor and the chain respectively. This is less than elegant, and doubles the chance of a shackle failure – well designed anchors, including the Rocna, have an elongated rode attachment point through which the shackle head can pass."
The "less than elegant" and "well designed anchors, including the Rocna," are clearly promotional choices of words. A we know best advertising not to mention the word "knowledge" in the link. All Rocna produced text claims or implies they know best and others are just groping around in the forest.

In the boating magazine link the big illustration does clearly show the anchor shackle attached w the pin through the anchor shank. Good eye Chris.
The man that designed the XYZ anchor in post #1 is an engineer and he obviously thinks the pin should go through the anchor shank. Numerous other anchors are designed the same way. The reason I am able to get the shackle ear (arm end) through the chain link is that it is larger chain than one would normally use (for weight near the anchor). I've always done it that way and never thought about using a smaller chain. Wonder what other people do w the XYZ anchor? Hmmmm. Probably use two shackles. But that would be "less than elegant" ha ha. XYZ supplied me w those shackles. Interestingly they have red colored pins and red pins aren't mentioned in the Rocna link. Probably an industrial color code.

But the enlarged drawing of the shank end and shackle does show the pin through the chain. I wonder if typical shackles used in pleasure boat anchoring are weaker than the chain? Most people probably go to the hardware store for anchor shackles or to the marine store like WM and buy galvanized steel (stronger) or SS shackles if they frequent the yacht club. Most probably don't know if their shackles are as strong as their chain. Most of the time I don't but all my ground tackle is larger than normal. Haha ... excluding most of my anchors.

Smith (or one of his minions) said in the link that the use of two shackles "is less than elegant, and doubles the chance of a shackle failure". Well anyone that fears shackle failure can obviously attach shackles that are rated the same or higher than the chain they are using. And anyone that fears "less than elegant" is already in a yacht club.
 
sunchaser said:
Geez, and I just bought a Vulcan with QA / QC supplied my good friends at Canada Metals. What a fool I am.

Next thing you know my Aluminum anchor made by Fortress will rot away or my anchor shackle be installed upside down. I'm not allowed to use a swivel for fear of facing Marin's wrath. BBB chain is inferior for reasons I cannot grasp.

Maybe I'll go cruising and once again take a badly needed hiatus from all these perplexities. :thumb:
Click to expand...

or just buy whatever heavy duty crap you want, toss it all together and try not to anchor out in heavier winds than say 30 knots sustained and none of it will ever matter...:D


if you like to challenge tropical storms and more....just ask the guy at the marine store what ensemble you need. :eek:
 
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sunchaser said:
Geez, and I just bought a Vulcan with QA / QC supplied my good friends at Canada Metals. What a fool I am.

Next thing you know my Aluminum anchor made by Fortress will rot away or my anchor shackle be installed upside down. I'm not allowed to use a swivel for fear of facing Marin's wrath. BBB chain is inferior for reasons I cannot grasp.

Maybe I'll go cruising and once again take a badly needed hiatus from all these perplexities. :thumb:
Click to expand...

Tom,
Did you read my high praise for the appearance of the Vulcan anchor? Several weeks ago I think. I do like it a lot. Wouldn't buy one though considering the source. There also has not been any Vulcan anchors featured in relatively unbiased after market tests. I think it will do quite well when that happens. But I'm not criticizing you for buying one as I use an XYZ regularly that has never been tested.
 
How does the hive feel about swivels?

I have always felt they are a weak link, add moving parts not easily inspected and can be of questionable origin and not really necessary.

Comments
 
Eric - "In the boating magazine link the big illustration does clearly show the anchor shackle attached w the pin through the anchor shank. Good eye Chris. "

That's why I posted "On this site, they show it both ways."
 
Tom.B said:
Having been around production rigging for most of my career (not a rigger, but I have flown my share of audio arrays). On chain motors, shackle pins always go through the chain to let the dynamic load hanging below to find its center. .
Click to expand...

My experience too, that is how the book is written and courses taught. Last big job I was on there were about 50 cranes with heaviest lift around 100 tons per crane and 2 to 3 attached to one pick.
 
Tom.B said:
Having been around production rigging for most of my career (not a rigger, but I have flown my share of audio arrays). On chain motors, shackle pins always go through the chain to let the dynamic load hanging below to find its center. TBH, there is a lot of contributions to this thread that really don't matter very much (not to belittle yall's contributions at all). Well before a shackle failure or chain failure, the anchor would break out of the bottom (IMHO). Good shackles are extremely strong. That's why they have been around so long and are so widely used. We bought one that was rated the same as our chain (4500#). Does it matter what way they are installed? Probably not. However, I am following what every rigger I have ever met has done... Pin thru the chain.
Click to expand...

Tom.B,
I was hoping we'd get some industrial input. I was a truck driver for quite a few years and have seen a lot of crane work and other rigging but I can't remember any details. Much of it was done w cable ends w/o a thimble and I was not impressed w that. At times though rigging was done by good professionals that seemed to know what they were doing. I drove big trucks at times and picked up loads at the Hanford Nuclear Plant where I had to (at times) wait for a crew to decontaminate the thing I came to get. So at times I'm sure I've seen shackles used properly .. but can't remember details.

But is the "pin through the chain" an accepted standard ..or something that's just done because it looks good or is the thing that comes to mind like what I usually did as a truck driver? I do agree w you that it probably doesn't matter much (or at all) w our anchors as most will break out before the shackle will fail. But what a professional rigger usually does is probably the best thing we've had so far to decide what is best.
You wrote;
"chain motors, shackle pins always go through the chain to let the dynamic load hanging below to find its center"

I'd like you to tell us what the "chain motor" is and what is meant by "find its center"? If you put the pin through the last chain link the shackle will almost always be not lined up .. the chain link will go to one side of the gap between the shackle arms .. not on center. It would seem one shackle arm will be loaded more than the other.
 
FlyWright said:
Eric - "In the boating magazine link the big illustration does clearly show the anchor shackle attached w the pin through the anchor shank. Good eye Chris. "

That's why I posted "On this site, they show it both ways."
Click to expand...

DUHHH ... Can't believe I missed that.
I'll take the magazine over Rocna. They both should be able to be held accountable though. And either should know.
 
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