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Old 03-01-2013, 08:25 PM   #101
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Marin wrote,
" stand a Rocna on its nose it will balance vertically on the rollbar and the base of the fluke"
If you stand the Rocna on it's fluke vertically it will not be on it's nose or on the roll bar at all. But I think you're trying to tell me that whatever you do when you pull on the shank w the rode the Rocna will promptly lay on it's side. True. That's a given. But if the scope is short (say 2.5 -1) I think it will NOT lay on it's side as the rode will be pulling up enough to keep the anchor right side up ... that is .. resting on the center of the bottom of the fluke with the shank vertical and the attach point up. Then it would be required to set in that position.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:54 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
If you stand the Rocna on it's fluke vertically it will not be on it's nose or on the roll bar at all.
Of course it will. The anchor will sit vertically very nicely with the shank more or less straight up in the air and the base (wide end) of the fluke on the ground and the top of the roll bar on the ground. The roll bar is what keeps it from toppling over in that position. It and the fluke make a sort of stand.

You can walk away from it like that and it will sit like that all day unless something knocks it off balance. I've done it plenty of times with ours. It doesn't take much to knock it off balance but as long as nothing does it will just stand there with its nose on the ground and the shackle end of the shank in the air.

I'm directing a shoot in Brazil right now but the next time I'm at the boat I'll take a photo of it standing on its nose (or head if you prefer) as nice as you please.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:56 PM   #103
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OK Marin I see what you are describing now. Now that we're all set up w the anchor sticking it's shank attach point basically straight up in the air and the arse end of the anchor resting on the floor, ground or sea bottom making contact w the roll bar and fluke ............... now what? From that position I sense you want to make a point. When you get time of course. And no need to take pics on the boat.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:13 PM   #104
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Eric wrote:
"I found my picture of my modified XYZ anchor. By making the fluke tip wide and straight across it presents a sharp point to the bottom when laying on it's side..."

I would say that makes sense in most substrates. The XYZ is an interesting design as it has turned down flukes in the rear which forces a deeper angle of tip penetration whereas the hoop anchors (speculation alert) would tend to leverage the tip back up. However, I find the handle on the XYZ a bit counterintuitive as it may, like the hoop, create an opposing force once below the surface.

I'll be comparing the Excel to my Rocna and CQR. Look forward to Marin's Rocna photos as a static comparison. Mine is still shackled to the boat.

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Old 03-01-2013, 10:23 PM   #105
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Eric-- The point is that as soon as the Rocna is tipped out of that vertical position, it starts to twist over to one side or the other, and if you let the end of the shank down to the ground the anchor will be on its side.

This is counter to your assumption that on a short scope the Rocna won't end up on its side. Even if you take hold of the end of the shank with your hand and move it out of the vertical position I described earlier, the anchor immediately starts to twist to end up lying on its side. It will do the same thing if you are using a short scope. Holding the shank up off the bottom with the rode will not eliminate this twisting to end up on its side.

Trying to set the anchor with an extremely short scope like 2:1 or something may prevent the anchor from digging in properly to set, but its reluctance to set won't be because the anchor is not lying on its side.

Play with one sometime and see for yourself how the anchor puts its full weight into falling over on one side or the other even if you try to prevent it. The only way to keep it off its side is to grab it by the roll bar or fluke and physically hold it up off its side.

The rollbar concept is a very, very clever design and is why we bought one.

PS-- As you say you can visualize the position I was trying to describe earlier I won't take the time to lower the anchor to the dock for photos.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:54 AM   #106
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Just thought you guys might be interested in a nice little one on the Excel, crew did a good job filming this, must have had faith in the excel, even I would be at the ready with plan B, certainly would not be filming.

Apparently from much comment the area they are anchored in is notorious to get anchors to hold at the best of time.

Storm Hits Granny Smith in Trousers Bay, Furneaux Islands
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:30 AM   #107
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Initial field report on the galvanized Sarca Excel No. 6 (66lb).

Location: Chesapeake Bay
Dates: 5/25 & 5/26
Bottom: Typically mud with varying top layers depending on location
Boat: PH Trawler - 40' overall length and 24,000 lb displacement
Rode: 5/16" G4 with dual snubbers

Day 1: Anchor boat for three sailboats - 1x42' & 2x34' (our old sailing friends did not disown us after all). Location (Rhode River High Island, MD) is known to have good holding. Winds were variable from 8-18 kts with minimal directional change. Anchor bit immediately and held a 1K RPM back down set (single 340 HP). No issues overnight. Weighing the anchor required patience, persistence and came up with mud mainly around the “de-liquification” cut-outs. A drop back into the water cleaned off the majority.

Day 2: Anchor boat for five sailboats - 1x42',1x39', 3x34'. Location (Mill Creek, MD) is known to have poor holding because of heavy leaf cover; had previous difficulties getting anchors to set in this anchorage. Anchor bit immediately and held a 1.1K RPM back down set. Winds variable from 5-12 kts. No issues overnight. Raft had swung 180 degrees on the morning tide, but the winds were calm.

Observations: Based on the difficulty weighing anchor, I can only suspect that it dove deeply into the mud. It also easily penetrated the leafy bottom of Mill Creek. By the end of the Holiday weekend, we were christened “anchor boat for life”. Not sure if this is necessarily a good thing…

While the above cannot be considered a definitive test for any anchor, I have growing confidence it will hold our single boat in most straight-line to moderate veering wind conditions and in substrates found on the Bay. I’m still looking for a substaintal 180 degree wind shift that typically comes during our summer squalls. I’ll continue to update notable experiences with this anchor.

Mike
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:58 AM   #108
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Excellent post! Thanks!
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:45 AM   #109
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DD,

The Excell has a ballasted tip does it not? I think that's a better design. Never care'd for hoops and roll bars. But I like the SARCA a lot.

If one pulls on the rode of a fully buried roll bar anchor the drag from the roll bar will present a force that will tend to pitch the anchor up like an aircraft climbing. Generally speaking anchors rising up out of the bottom when pulled upon is clearly counterproductive. However on some bottoms pitching up when well buried could be an advantage when one needs to pull it up as it may not be buried so deep. It would seem to act as a depth limiter. But then one would want to ask the question "how deep does one need/want to burry one's anchor"? Perhaps there's no point in burying anchors further than the shank. But if you had to bet on one anchor buried to it's shank and another buried one foot below it's shank and a 50 knot gale was forecast .... Hmmm.

As I recall the German chap that designed the roll bar anchor offered it as a method of orienting the anchor properly w a device that weighed less than the ballast usually employed for that purpose thus opening the door for more blade area for a given weight anchor.

But it matters little if at all as both roll bar and others seem to work very well. But from an analytical and design standpoint ...........
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:37 PM   #110
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Have just upgraded my Excel (#8) to the new improved design, really looking forward to putting this one thru the hoops.
Had a look at the new Aluminium 2 piece Excel at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show , looks the goods.
I have one on order as my spare anchor, easy to stow and easier to get out and deploy when required.
Spare anchor will now be the same size as main.

Re the weighted tip, the good thing about this is it is cast steel so when the time comes for the anchor to be re galvanised there is no pesky lead to be melted out and replaced.
Cheers
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:10 AM   #111
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Hi Mike,

That’s a good start, I think also when you add the weight, displacement and draft of the extra boats shunting and bumping that you had rafted up alongside deep setting of the Excel is not to surprising.

At the International boat show just finished we had a guy stating that he anchored in the two cyclones, the first one was 85 knots and the second 65 knots, the good thing was is he did not move, but when retrieving his number 5 Excel after the 85 knot blow he found it took some time to retrieve it.

He went on to say after 10 minutes of forcefully trying to brake it out of the mud he decided to take a break with some load still on the bow from winching, when he went to reapproach the recovery he noticed the bow was now moving up and down quite freely, he then reloaded the winch and the anchor showed little resistance.

After this experience in retrieving the Excel, the second cyclone he sat through at sixty knots he tried a different approach when retrieving, this time he motored up to the anchor retrieving his chain, once above the anchor and the bow starting to dip he stopped the winch and proceeded forward at a fast idle speed, he said within minutes he could feel the anchor breaking out, using this technique he said the Excel has not been a problem to retrieve when deep set.

Never the less you have a way to go before you can recommend the Excel I suppose, but if it performs as well for you as it does for others then I am sure it will be money well spent. I will look forward to future experience.

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Old 05-31-2013, 08:27 AM   #112
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Roll bar concept

Hi Eric,

You do make some valid points on the roll bar anchors, never the less all models concepts that you mention are significantly different,( different designs)

If you view this link once again you will see a major performance, deeper setting difference, Re roll bar concept, concave verses convex.

True, do we need this extra holding power? Probably not but it's nice to know it’s there if you should.

Regards Rex.
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Old 05-31-2013, 09:36 AM   #113
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Helloooo Rex,
Was waiting for your input HaHa. You make the anchor threads more of a learning experience and that is always good.

Since your roll bar on the SARCA is much larger and much smaller bar dia the RB drag is not felt till the anchor is considerably deeper and then I think the SARCA shank is shorter too and that will also help short scope performance and reduce the effects of roll bar drag.

Need "the extra holding power?".... I've never had a holding power problem. Never dragged an anchor and have used a number of types. Could it be that my anchors are too big? Most will think I've been just lucky but if I had an anchor that had twice as much holding power it could be half the size and I could quit thinking about a bigger anchor, winches ect.
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