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Old 09-24-2012, 09:03 AM   #41
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Yes, I did get the ball & socket thing - which is why it is so expensive I imagine, as that would not be cheap to produce. You might say it is the Rolls Royce of swivels. The trouble could be having to sacrifice it when it came time to change the chain, as like the one I had (similar), those special locking, thief-proof pins are virtually un-removable. They use a special Allan type key into specially shaped recesses in the end to tighten, and the things tend to strip out when you try to undo them after years in salt water and they have seized up. So stick to not having one, is my advice.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:00 PM   #42
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It doesn't matter which end of a swivel is aiming at the anchor shank as long as it's connected to the anchor in a way that allows it to pivot in any direction relative to the shank. The most common if not the only way to do this is with a shackle between the swivel and the shank. It doesn't matter if you connect the leg end of the swivel to the shackle or the loop end. .
Thanks for the clarification Marin, and thank you Peter for your comments. Calder`s Cruising Handbook p400 is consistent,in summary "avoid using one but if you do, put a shackle in between". I may get the Earl Hinz book from Amazon too. BruceK
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:20 AM   #43
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Well guys I have been using a swivel on my anchors for the last 17 years and wouldn't install one with =out.
I have attached a photo of my latest unit attached to my SARCA Excel.
Really stood up the other night when we got a strong wind change whilst I was anchored down at Pelican Point.
Started at about 03 00 and blew to 35 knots plus eased to 15 about 0430 so back to sleep.
Woke up at 0630 and we were the only boat around , previously had about 5 boats and some of them were draging anchor.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:14 AM   #44
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Benn, I hate to introduce an element of negativity - or put a dampener on anything like, and your experience would clearly justify your confidence, but it does rather appear that with the rigid leg end the pin goes through attached to your anchor shank, sideways forces could under certain circumstances be applied to the swivel centre pin itself. Please explain why that is not a problem with your set-up, so we can sleep easy too.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:46 AM   #45
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Peter, I can't exactly see what you are getting at.
The pin in the anchor is not tight and then the swivel is attached to the chain so that it all swivels in all directions.
There would be no point in installing another shackle or swivel in the system.
Some do like a short length of chain between the swivel and anchor shank but I am not of that ilk.
This is also the reccomended method from most swivel manufacturers.
Don't worry I sleep well at night anchored out in all sorts of open and exposed anchorages.
The best part of the system is the size of the anchor and the weight of chain.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:49 AM   #46
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Peter,
The other thing is if there was that much sideways force on your anchor it would have to be caught in some very hard coral or rocks to prevent movement and if so one is probably using the wrong style of anchor.
In that sort of bottom I would most likely be using my star type reef pick.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:56 AM   #47
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Benn, I suspect you are right in almost in all cases, your anchor would end up pointed in line with the direction of pull, but it is theoretically possible for the anchor to bed in or be trapped so tight a sideways pull of significance can be exerted, and there have been published accounts of anchor flukes and shanks being bent in that way. Your swivel actually rotates round an axis which is in line with the shank, but there appears no provision for a hinging or sideways movement other than straight up and down. I think the best way to explain the theoretical risk in such a case is to re-quote part of one of Marin's posts because it does illustrate it rather well.....

Originally Posted by Marin
Your swivel is attached to your anchor shank with a shackle. (Talking about mine here), I'm talking about the people who attach the open end, U- end, leg end, whatever you want to call it, directly to the anchor shank. This allows the swivel to pivot in only one direction, up and down in line with the shank. It cannot pivot out of line with the shank so if the boat gets off to the side of the anchor the swivel cannot pivot to point at it. So the load is sideways on the swivel pin and with a side load the pin will break long before it or any other part of the swivel would break with a straight through load.

Does that explain what I am getting at a bit more clearly...?
I don't want to cause alarm, as we are talking flukey situations I guess, but it is a possibility. In other words, fixed on like yours is, the swivel is in effect almost becoming part of the shank (in the horizontal plane), rather than part of the freely moving chain...
Still great to hear you are getting a good performance out of your Excel, as it's got to be one of the best damn anchors around. But having said that, as it is not going to let go, it is all the more important for its connections to be equally robust, I think you would agree. Hope there is no angst re my concerns above as a result.
Pete
PS. We still haven't managed to touch base with each other - maybe this summer...?
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:45 AM   #48
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The way the swivel is attached in the photo is exactly the way that Hinz in his book describes is the wrong way to do it. With the legs attached directly to the anchor shank the swivel cannot pivot to the side. It can pivot only up and down in line with the shank. So if the boat gets off to the side of the set anchor the swivel cannot pivot sideways to align with the direction of pull. Which means the load on the swivel pin at the core of the swivel has a sideways component.

The swivel's strength is rated with a straight-through pull. It will be less, conceivably a lot less, if the boat's position puts a sideways load on the swivel pin. And if the swivel pin shears or breaks, the two halves of the swivel separate and the boat will no longer be attached to the anchor. Hinz has some illustrations in his book of boats that ended up on the beach as a result of the swivel pin breaking under a sideways load because the swivel could not pivot to the side to remain in line with the load.

This is why he and others recommend the swivel always be attached to the anchor with a shackle, which will allow the swivel to pivot in any direction to remain in line with the pull of the boat no matter where it is in relation to the anchor.

While the notion that a strong sideways pull would most likely unset the anchor and thus relieve the sideways load on the swivel pin is valid, if the anchorage is rough and the boat is moving around or pitching up and down, the swivel could be subjected to a very hard jerk or shock before the anchor unsets. And this sudden jerk with the associated high load is all that might be needed to cause the pin to shear.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:45 PM   #49
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Guys point taken and I can see the concern if the that happens.
Will have to look at a better connection.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:55 PM   #50
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Guys point taken and I can see the concern if the that happens.
Will have to look at a better connection.
All you have to do is put a suitably rated shackle between your existing swivel and the anchor shank.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:15 PM   #51
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A while back I searched fitting swivels online and saw a pic of a s/s barrel type swivel of "legs" directly attached to the anchor, deformed and failing. Which is why I put off fitting mine. But Benn`s good experience,even with no shackle, favors fitting one, with shackle.
Re posts 2 & 3 above, on mixing gal and s/steel parts. This was in a dark recess of memory. Calder (Cruising Handbook p.398) criticizes s/s shackles with gal chain: 1. the higher WLL of an s/s shackle may be illusory as they are typically rated at half that;2. s/s may cause galvanic corrosion(? means corroding the gal,or something else). However, Sarca specifies using a s/s shackle in the slot of the gal steel Super Sarca, so the next shackle might as well be s/s too. BruceK
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:36 PM   #52
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As a PS to my previous post don't forget to safety wire the pins of any shackles you have in your anchor rode.

To paraphrase somebody famous....

"For want of a nail a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe a horse was lost. For want of a horse a soldier was lost. For want of a soldier a skirmish was lost. For the loss of the skirmish a battle was lost. For the loss of the battle a war was lost. For the loss of the war a country was lost."

Sounds like something Robert E. Lee might have said.....

Anyway, safety wire your shackle pins.
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:19 AM   #53
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Dead right safety wire shackle pin with s/s wire nothing else.
I have a long story about doing this type of thing with electrical cable ties (don't)
One day I will take time to elaborate on the storey
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:21 AM   #54
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Ok, all's well that ends well, eh guys, and we'll all sleep easier knowing Benn is sleeping tight swinging on the best anchor, and connections in the business.
I think by now Bruce will be very clear exactly what to do as well, right Bruce..?
Oh yes, one last thing...there is no issue mixing stainless shackles swivels and chain. They are not immersed in an anchoring situation long enough for galvanic corrosion to exert any real influence. I've certainly not noticed it after 10 years, and my swivel has always attached to a galvanised secondary shackle, even tho the main one through the anchor slot is stainless as recommended. Actually, Rex of Sarca did tell me last time we had a chat, that for anchor sizes above about Sarca number 7, a galvanised shackle through the slot is ok, for what it's worth.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:44 PM   #55
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Yes Peter,I do, the issues are well ventilated, many thanks. I should add that Rex from Sarca advocates giving the end of the shackle pins a hammering to lock them up. BruceK
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:43 PM   #56
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We fitted a 22kg no. 6 Super Sarca. Initially the shackles, one with the pin in the slot and the other attached to it U to U, connecting the all chain rode, would tangle, affecting sets. So we added a gal swivel between the 2 shackles.
Yesterday we were committee boat for a one day series of sailboat (Elliots) match racing on Sydney Harbour. The varying wind direction saw us anchor 3 times as the triangle course needed adjustment. Each time, in about 36-40ft of water, the anchor set perfectly. It also tolerated a near 180 degree wind change. I pronounce the change from plough/CQR to S/Sarca a success.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:32 AM   #57
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Nice one Bruce. The time you will really appreciate it is the times on the pick when unforcasted nasty stuff happens at night, once you've settled in for the night. Usually, at the most all you might do it let out from say your light weather 1:3, or mod weather 1:5, to a scope of 1:7, and put your longer storm snubber on. Then go back to your bunk, to rest if not sleep.
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