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Old 05-07-2012, 06:17 AM   #41
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And about all this "weight in the anchor" bit, perhaps you can 'splain to me, Lucy, why in test after test and in real-life experience after real-life experience the Fortress is always at or near the top of the chart when it comes to holding power in the bottoms it's suited for. This for an anchor that weighs what, twenty pounds in the "big" sizes?

Size (surface area) counts so a bigger aluminum or titanium anchor will have larger surface area than a small one.

This only works IF the anchor can be set , and will actually dig into the bottom.

Most marked anchorages do not have large gravel, heavy kelp , or any of the other more difficult bottoms.
And for sure all the "tests" are done in areas where failure will only be the "other guys" equipment .Want a video of a rigged test?

Weather a fly weight will work as an emergency anchor , when required may be questionable.

Personally I would rather toss a 100lb antique Herrishoff in a quick need than rely on "modern".

FF
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:31 AM   #42
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Quote:
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Peter,
psneeld just posted that and if you read the links FlyWright posted you'll see that the best place for the kellet is 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the way down the rode. Not in the middle. Rex was the one that recommended the kellet to me. And I made one (only 12lbs though). The kellet is better at short scope. These aren't my opinions but that Smith guy.
Sorry Eric and psneeld. I missed the post referring to the Anchor Buddy somehow.
Actually I think both statements are correct. The kellet does add to the security of the anchor, by keeping the rode flatter to the bottom for longer, preventing the strain from being transmitted to the anchor itself for longer, but yes...if the ultimate force necessary to lift chain and kellet clear of the bottom occurs, then the fundamental holding power will be all that's left. The anchor is then having to exert a resistance force equal and opposite to the combined force exerted on the boat. Thats when you need an anchor that buries deep - real deep. However, don't forget these extremes usually don't last that long, and starting the engine and putting it in slow ahead can tide one over until things settle...
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:51 AM   #43
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Perhaps anchoring is interesting because there is so much about it that is not concrete. If we were talking about what engine is most economical we need only to look at the specific fuel consumption charts for those engines and there it is. Look up the specs on your electronics and there's no question about what it can do. Hull design is a little bit art and intuition but mostly laid down by facts and numbers.

But anchor design and usage seems to be a subject that is questionable enough that anybody can have an opinion and be somewhat to considerably correct. And there are so many variables and rules of thumb that one can chase one's tail around until completely fatigued. You can say epoxy has better adhesion than _____ but you can't say one anchor is superior to another without addressing a lot of variables and those variables must be applied in degrees and even then good arguments can be made in most any direction.

There are a few tidbits of known engineering fact that pertain to anchors. One is that the concave surface has the greatest resistance to movement. The man who designed the Spade proved that. But there are a lot of modern and old anchors that do not have concave surfaces. But we know concave is best. Here come the variables. Weight, shank angle, surface area, shank length and there seems no end to it. Anchoring variables are like Murphy..... always there to turn things up side down .....or at least on their side.

Most all of us know that there are lots of anchors and they all have their good points and short comings. Some of us think that there is only one supreme anchor and one best rode but being a P type personality I like to keep my options and my mind open. And there are J types that like things decided. I like to examine things, talk about things and consider the validity of old wife's tales, rules of thumb and old axiom's like heavy is better. It's exciting to think about where these elements can lead us.

I've a lot invested in one of the lightest anchors ever made but wednesday I'm going to explore buying (only if I can get it cheap) a Dreadnought anchor ..... one of the heaviest anchors to be seen and not made for a long time. Here is a pic of a much larger one. The one I want has almost no rust. So much to explore.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:16 PM   #44
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Size (surface area) counts so a bigger aluminum or titanium anchor will have larger surface area than a small one.....

Personally I would rather toss a 100lb antique Herrishoff in a quick need than rely on "modern".

FF
Our boat came with a big, heavy Danforth-type anchor. It wasn't made by Danforth but it was for all practical purposes identical. The Fortress we now carry on our boat as a stern anchor but is sized to be the main anchor of the boat is pretty much exactly the same size in terms of fluke area as that old, heavy Danforth-type. So no change there. Just a reduction in weight.

But I agree with you that in a storm or severe condition situation I would not want to rely on that Fortress, either. For one thing they have been known to bend fairly easily under high side loads. But I would rather have something big and heavy in severe conditions.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:50 PM   #45
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Marin wrote:
"But I agree with you that in a storm or severe condition situation I would not want to rely on that Fortress, either. For one thing they have been known to bend fairly easily under high side loads. But I would rather have something big and heavy in severe conditions."

Is'nt the Fortress the most popular anchor for hurricanes? Seems to me I've read that many times. And dos'nt the wind change directions after the eye passes over or by? One would need a lot of room on long scope or need to reposition the anchor in the eye when things go slack. I would use a Fortress if I had a big one.

" So no change there. Just a reduction in weight." I read this to say the only difference between a Fortress and an old knock off steel Danforth is weight. Can't see any other way to take it. And you read and believe anchor tests.....hard to believe.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #46
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Marin wrote:

Is'nt the Fortress the most popular anchor for hurricanes?
Beats the hell out of me. I know the USCG uses Fortresses on many of their SAFE boats and such. Of course, based on what we observe around here they don't anchor those boats much so they were probably looking more for a weight reduction than high holding power. But the one complaint I have read a number of times over the years about the Fortress is how easy it can be to bend the shank if the load gets off to the side and the anchor stays buried. I've met people who've had them bend under just these circumstances

Quote:
" So no change there. Just a reduction in weight." I read this to say the only difference between a Fortress and an old knock off steel Danforth is weight. Can't see any other way to take it. And you read and believe anchor tests.....hard to believe.
I bet if someone told you it was raining and you were soaked through you'd still look up to see if they were telling the truth. I am well aware that anchor tests can be optimized for the desired results. But they do illustrate a valid comparison under the situation defined by the test. The fact that the Fortress comes out at or near the top in terms of holding power time after time indicates something.

Is your proposal that anchor tests should be done away with entirely because every one of them is deliberately rigged? Should we all judge anchors using armchair theory alone? "Well, it looks like it ought to work good, so I'll buy one on faith that it will."

I've told you we actually didn't use anchor tests when we were looking for a replacement for out POS Bruce. We went almost exclusively on user testimonials and our own evaluation of the design. But anchor tests are one factor in determining the effectiveness of an anchor, and as such I believe they do have some value. Particularly if an effort is made to make the test impartial and simulate at least one real-world anchoring condition out of an infinite number of possible conditions.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:13 PM   #47
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Well it's raining here today and have had much too much of that lately. Think I'll need to scrub the decks in the rain today.

Marin.......I do'nt remember saying anchor tests should be done away with ......not at all. I wish there were many more of them done by different people. More opinions and more observations. For that matter I wish more people on the forum would participate in the anchor exploring. The more people the closer we could come to reality.

Without any other qualifications I'd say the Fortress is the highest holding power anchor in the world now.

Marin wrote:
"I've told you we actually didn't use anchor tests when we were looking for a replacement for out POS Bruce. We went almost exclusively on user testimonials and our own evaluation of the design. But anchor tests are one factor in determining the effectiveness of an anchor, and as such I believe they do have some value. Particularly if an effort is made to make the test impartial and simulate at least one real-world anchoring condition out of an infinite number of possible conditions."
Give me a break. I'm 72 and have a right to forget some things. Yes I think you are right.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:48 PM   #48
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Give me a break. I'm 72 and have a right to forget some things. Yes I think you are right.
I don't judge a person's age by years. Other than when I was a little kid and birthday celebrations were a part of growing up my parents and I never celebrated or even acknowledged birthdays because they both (and I ) felt that age in years is irrelevant.

I've never met you and most likely never will so all I have to go by regarding your age is what you write. I know you've put up the occasional photo but I'm worthless at judging people's ages by their appearance so our photos have not been a factor.

In my view, I regard you as being middle-aged. Old enough to have been around the block a few times and rack up a lot of experience but young enough to have an open mind and be looking toward the future, not wallowing in a long-gone past.

If I had to attach an age in years to that I would say, what, perhaps 45-50? As far as I'm concerned your stated age of 72 years is irrelevant to the kind of person you are and to what you contribute to this world. I know or know of people (some on this forum) who regardless of their age in years strike me as being in their 90s they are so stuck in an outdated, never to be seen again past.

You are not one of those people.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:28 AM   #49
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Here is a picture of my rope to chain splice which is necessary to use on my windlass.

What do you guys think, will this hold? It doesn't look like a good way to hold a 25000 lb boat, but it was done by a profession as directed by the windlass manual.

I know of know other way to secure this splice, but would like to get some comments.
All three strands of the rope go through the last link of the chain, right?

That's how it's done and if done correctly it retains almost all the strength of the rope. That splice is the only way you'll get a chain to rope rode to go through a typical windlass. That's how it's done and if you bought the rode from the windlass manufacturer, that's how it would be done.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:04 AM   #50
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This is pretty much an eye splice. The difference being in that a true eye splice all three strands go through the link in the same direction. With the rope to chain splice, two strands go through in one direction and the third strand goes through in the opposite direction. The weave is the same. This eliminates the bulk of a true eyesplice. It is not quite as strong as a true eyesplice, but is sufficient.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:06 PM   #51
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http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html

This way will assure the rode will fit the gypse.

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:49 PM   #52
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http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html

This way will assure the rode will fit the gypse.

Sd

I like the looks of that better than the method I used. When I have nothing else on the boat to fix (Ha! Bilge pump, upper helm depth finder display, VHF antenna, install davits ...) I may re-do the rope-to-chain splice.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:21 AM   #53
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If anybody wants such a winch I have a big one that has chain and sprocket drive. I'd bring it to a Puget Sound TF member for $400. The hydraulic motor would probably need to be rebuilt. It's too big for Willy. See the picture at the bottom of my previous post.
Why so far away!!! This is exactly what I was referring to in my post about deck mounted drum winches.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:32 PM   #54
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twiisted71,
Does "Why so far away" mean you want it?
If you are interested in the winch I could put it in the container and bring it to Washington state. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to ship it slow fright to Florida? May be cost effective. This is a very powerful winch with it's chain drive. You may be better off w a direct drive model. But new they are $3000 min for a direct drive.
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