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Old 05-06-2012, 03:42 PM   #21
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pnseeld's correctness is an opinion at this point w me but I intend to find the truth in the matter in time.
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:12 PM   #22
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Sounds like a case for MythBusters! They'd do some scale modeling and apply scientific standards of physics and come up with the definitive answer for all time.

(Just don't ask them anything about aviation because, IMO, their analysis of birdproof aircraft windshields was a joke.)

MythBusters : Discovery Channel

Here's a pretty good article on catenary and kellets.

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/catenary.php

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/kellets.php
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:29 PM   #23
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Very interesting article on kellets, thanks much for posting the link. Interesting how the position of the kellet improves different things: near the anchor to help the anchor hold better, halfway down the rode for increased shock absorption, closer to the boat for reduced swinging.

Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation. Which is good: one less thing to lug around.

It's too bad these articles were written bt Peter Smith. Eric wouldn't believe Smith if he wrote an article proving conclusively that two plus two equals four.
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:44 PM   #24
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Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation. Which is good: one less thing to lug around.
Yeah, especially with multiple anchors and rodes, as well as anchor buoy and snubber. Seems a boat's lazarette can never be big enough.
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:47 PM   #25
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Here's some food for thought about sentinels...

anchoring boats using kellets, sentinels, Anchor Buddy anchor weights
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:48 PM   #26
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I almost did'nt read the links when I saw the author was Peter Smith but I read them anyway

He says (but dos'nt prove) that the optimum placement of a kellet is much closer to the anchor than the boat but fails to mention that the kellet in extreme conditions actually increases the pull on the rode and makes the ground tackle in extreme conditions less effective than without it.

So he says that catenary does not help holding the boat in extreme conditions and only when using an extremely high holding power anchor. But rarely are we in extreme conditions so most all the time we would benefit from the kellet. Fishermen get into extreme conditions but do'nt use high holding power anchor's. Most yachtsmen use Claws and other non-super performing anchors and at shorter scopes than desirable. They would also benifit from the kellet.

But he did agree w me in that all chain rode is not at all an ideal rode. He agrees w what I've said many times ......that anchor rode weight is best spent at the anchor.

These two articles are as everything I have ever read by Peter Smith an advertisement made to look like a scientific report. There's a lot of fact and good stuff in both links but I'd like to see something more objective.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:04 PM   #27
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Hard to imagine that a 30-pound-or-so kellet would have a significant effect on an all-chain rode given the chain's already-heavy weight. A rope rode could be another matter, however.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:27 PM   #28
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psneeld,
Thanks. Another advertisement but good information none the less. According to them their kellets are wonderful. Just like according to Peter Smith Rocna anchors are wonderful. It seems that the best use of a kellet may be to dampen line shock.

No Marin. The most interesting thing Smith said and presented is that the anchor rode weight is best considerably closer to the anchor and that rode weight is best invested in the anchor. He also points out that catenary loses most of it's benefit only in extreme conditions w extremely high holding power anchors. He fails to point out that the weak link in anchoring IS the bottom and even w a high holding power anchor a poor bottom can make chain and kellets of great value. His theories are applicable only to 1. Use of an extremely high holding power anchor 2. Extremely high winds and a bottom w very good holding. You and I have never anchored in such conditions.

With any of the three conditions (above) a bit weak........ catenary achieved by optimum displacement of weight in the rode can have a profound effect on rode performance. Catenary and what brings higher anchor performance about may be best experienced while setting the anchor. Anchor rode weight concentration close to the anchor surely should have a profound and positive effect on setting performance.

Good point Mark but how are you going to deploy a kellet down a chain?
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:40 PM   #29
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Good point Mark but how are you going to deploy a kellet down a chain?
The link at post #25 has a photo showing it being done.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:31 PM   #30
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Oh I think I remember the cupped shoe like thing that was on TF a year or so ago. It was a brass or bronze thing that I think should work w chain. Lots of things will slide down anchor line that would'nt w chain.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:11 PM   #31
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We have a big stainless steel split "hoop" that you put around a chain (or rope) and then attach a shackle to. You can then put a kellet and control line on the shackle and send the hoop down the chain however far you want under the weight of the kellet. The hoop is large enough that it slides very easily over even big chain with no problems.

In fact the hoop is large enough to slide down a rode and on over the shank of most anchors. So you can get round the other side of the anchor and pull the hoop to the fluke end of the shank and then back the anchor out. We prefer to use a trip line shackled directly to the wide end of the fluke but we carry the stainless hoop as a Plan B. So far we've never used it, either to hold and position a kellet or back an anchor out.

And Eric, if the guy who designed the wing on the 787--- and it was one guy who did this--- wrote an article about the advancements of wing design using the 787 wing as his example would you discount what he said because he works for Boeing and so has a vested interest in the 787's success?

Peter Smith is no different. He came up with an anchor design that has proved outstanding in service all over the world. And yes, he utilized some ideas that had been proven in other earlier designs and admits this, just as our wing designer used elements of earlier wing designs in his 787 wing and says so.

But the point is that most people who develop new designs for anchors, wings, automotive components, railroad locomotive propulsion systems, you name it, are not doing this in a vacuum. They almost always work for a company or are in the business of making and selling the products they have developed. It's usually the only way the costs of the research and development can be covered.

Are you going to discount the validity of everyone who has proven to be an expert in their field because they work for the company that builds or utilizes their designs, or they build and market the product they designed?

I would find that a very limiting attitude as it would cut me off from benefiting from most of the innovators in this world.

Regardless of what Peter Smith is like as a person--- and I have never met or talked to him so I don't know what he's like--- I think there is no denying he has put a lot of thought into his anchor design and has created a real winner. And he has a ton of real-world boating and anchoring experience in some of the toughest waters in the world--- the southwestern Pacific. So I think he knows whereof he speaks. To discount or dismiss what he says because he's basing it on what he's learned from his experience creating and using an anchor of his own design is, I think, a mistake.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation.
Granted, these folks might be trying to sell anchors, but here's the no-Marin-spin actual conclusion. The conclusion states the benefits from the extra weight would be better realized if carried in a larger anchor.
"Conclusion

Consider how much benefit might be achieved by changing the anchor; upgrading to a superior design and also upping the size if desired. An extreme example is in the idea of re-allocating the weight in the simulations above – what if the weight from the 15 kg kellet was instead put into the anchor? A 30 kg or 35 kg anchor would result, for no increase in the total weight of the system – yet the holding power would be massively increased.
Kellets are interesting accessories that unfortunately are frequently misused. Sales talk from companies promising “increased anchor performance” is misleading at best. Kellets do little to improve the ultimate holding power of the anchor."
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:59 PM   #33
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Granted, these folks might be trying to sell anchors, but here's the no-Marin-spin actual conclusion. ....

Marin..."Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation."

Peter Smith....."Kellets do little to improve the ultimate holding power of the anchor."
Still haven't taken that remedial reading class, eh? Better sign up soon before it's filled again.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #34
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I realize your writing skills might exceed your reading ability, so I'll try to make it even simpler for you, marin. Here's the quote again, but this time without all those other distracting words...

"What if the weight from the 15 kg kellet was instead put into the anchor? A 30 kg or 35 kg anchor would result, for no increase in the total weight of the system – yet the holding power would be massively increased."

You ignore the facts of the premise and jump to the conclusion. Try to spend a little effort in reading and understanding the ideas of others rather than wasting all your efforts in verbose dissertations expounding on the merits of your narrow perspective. You might learn something, marin.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:00 AM   #35
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FlyWright,
Marin's caught up in the Rocna and Smith hype. The anchor I think is great except it may be short on short scope performance but the Smith guy is on the shy side of being a con man. He's smart enough to not get caught telling lies and smart enough to omit what's necessary to present the picture he wants to go to press. And all facts aside I just do'nt like the guy. When an anchor tester told him his anchor put on a less than stellar performance at 3-1 scope he side stepped the point and said one was supposed to anchor at 5-1 and then shorten up. Well the anchor testers obviously thought 3-1 was important as they tested all the anchors at 3-1. The Manson Supreme tested almost as well at 3-1 as the Rocna tested at 5-1. I bought the Manson.

I've pointed out to Marin numerous times that he'd be better off taking off half of his chain and putting that weight into his anchor. You'd think Marin would tell me "that's what Smith says" but he never mentions it. Selective omission .... kinda like the Smith guy.

But I'll read all of Marin's stuff as he has a wonderful flare for uncovering stones that others miss. And Marin posts so much stuff he's bound to get someth'in wrong.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Psneeld is correct. Thr right place for a kellet is as halfway down the rode as you can get it. The objective is not to add weight to the head of the anchor shank but to reduce the angle of the rode's pull on the anchor so the pull is more parallel to the bottom than angled up toward the boat which will try to lever the anchor out of the bottom. Sliding a kellet down to the anchor itself won't do this. Positioning the kellet as close to halfway down the rode will.
Absolutely right...and not a bad bit of quick extra security for when a blow is possible, without the complication of tandem or dual anchors on separate rodes.
See here.....
Anchor Buddy anchor weights kellet anchoring technique reduces risk of boat anchors dragging
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:30 AM   #37
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Peter,
psneeld just posted that and if you read the links FlyWright posted you'll see that the best place for the kellet is 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the way down the rode. Not in the middle. Rex was the one that recommended the kellet to me. And I made one (only 12lbs though). The kellet is better at short scope. These aren't my opinions but that Smith guy.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:49 AM   #38
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Here is the extent of my anchor knowledge:
The type of bottom determines the style of anchor to use.
The heavier the anchor, the better, within reason. If you look at identical designed anchors by the same manufacturer, you will notice the differing specs for holding power. The bigger anchor has more holding power. Of course, there are other factors that come into play such a shank strength, etc. But mainly, the bigger teh anchor, the better the holding power.
My anchor/chain rode is typically 2/3 chain and 1/3 rope.
The Purpose of the chain is to weigh down the rode and help keep it pulling in a horizontal direction. The other lesser purpose of the chain is to reduce chafe on the rope when rubbing on the bottom.
The purpose of the rope is to reduce shock loading on your cleats and your anchor when the bow surges up and down.
As for Anchor Buddies, kellets, and the likes, I seriously doubt they do much good.
When your 20 to 30,000 lb boat surges upward, I doubt that an extra 30 or 40 lbs on your chain, with a 7 to 1 scope will do much good. As a matter of fact, in a blow, your rode is pretty much taut anyway. Not good, but thats the way it is.
As a side note, the rope to chain splice is quite often used not just because of your winch system but also because experience has taught us that the weakest link in the whole rode system is a shackle.
This is my p[ersonal preference and is all up for debate as is all of the different manufacturers debating why their anchor is better.
When I am in calm waters, like protected channels, I just use a 15 Ft chain and the rest is rope.
Typically your scope should be 3 to 1 for a Lunch Hook, 5 to 1 under normal conditions and 7 or 10 to 1 for a storm. I fel that when using the proper anchor, the rest of your system is largely dependant on the scope.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:33 AM   #39
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You ignore the facts of the premise and jump to the conclusion. Try to spend a little effort in reading and understanding the ideas of others rather than wasting all your efforts in verbose dissertations expounding on the merits of your narrow perspective. You might learn something, marin.
I read both links in their entirety. The were very interesting and I'm glad you put them up. I learned a lot. So thank you for that. However, I have the ability to recognize a summary conclusion when I read one. But a lot of people have difficulty with this level of recognition and interpretation, hence my constructive (and serious) suggestion about the remedial reading and language interpretation class. I know a number of people---even realyl old people--- who have taken them and they all found them very enlightening.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:51 AM   #40
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FlyWright,
Marin's caught up in the Rocna and Smith hype.....

I've pointed out to Marin numerous times that he'd be better off taking off half of his chain and putting that weight into his anchor. You'd think Marin would tell me "that's what Smith says" but he never mentions it.
Eric--- An anchor that has proven itself to be more consistently successful than most other types (and I include the other rollbar anchors in this statement) is not "hype." It's fact and you can read as many user testimonials about Rocna, Sarca, Manson, and Bugel as you can stand that bear this out.

As I've posted before, I am seeing more Rocnas on boats in our marina and in the local yard almost every time we're up in Bellingham these days. I've even seen one recently on a 58' commercial limit seiner.

I think Smith came up with a brilliant anchor design but that doesn't mean I take everything he says as gospel. When I first called Rocna in New Zealand to learn about their anchor they emphatically recommended an all chain rode and were very happy to hear that's what we already had. The instruction sheet that came with our anchor when we picked it up in Vancouver also recommends all-chain rode.

This was some seven or eight years ago. Now if Peter Smith has since determined for himself that all-chain is not ideal or is less than ideal under certain circumstances, that's fine. I'm certainly in no position to say he's wrong.

But he's one guy. I've talked to a whole lot more people--- experienced people with way more anchoring experience than I'll ever have--- who recommend all-chain for the type of boat we have, the type of boating we do, and the kind of anchoring we encounter in this region than I have people who haven't recommended it. In fact, come to think about it, you're the only one..

So I am not about to toss out all this on-location-here experience because Smith wrote in an article what he believes is valid for his kind of boating in his area. Notice that much of his articles in the links had to do with high wind conditions and bar-tight chain. He wasn't talking much about winds in the 20-35 mph range that are what we tend to consider "high" around here. An exposed southwestern Pacific anchorage with a wind fetch of a few hundred miles and ocean swells rolling in is a wee bit different than Echo Bay on Sucia.

And about all this "weight in the anchor" bit, perhaps you can 'splain to me, Lucy, why in test after test and in real-life experience after real-life experience the Fortress is always at or near the top of the chart when it comes to holding power in the bottoms it's suited for. This for an anchor that weighs what, twenty pounds in the "big" sizes?
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