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Old 04-17-2011, 12:36 PM   #81
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RE: Rocna revealed

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SeaHorse II wrote:Carey wrote:nomadwilly wrote:
.... I always like it when Walt posts pics of his Bruce.

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Old 04-17-2011, 05:35 PM   #82
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RE: Rocna revealed

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Carey wrote:

That really is an interesting design. I sure like the point, and I can't see any obvious flaws. Let us know how it works for you.

*
*I agree, it is an interesting design.* It has horrible test results and great test results.* It would be good to hear from someone using it in real life.** Keep us posted.

*
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:28 PM   #83
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RE: Rocna revealed

Seahorse

You are absolutely correct. If anybody on this forum can figure out the anchoring stuff, it is Eric. Having met him at THorne Bay, hsi determiantion is evident and he won't put up with a lot of BS. Good traits for sure. As I recall Eric didn't buy into all the Rocna hype of last year either.
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:26 PM   #84
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RE: Rocna revealed

Thanks for all the kind words gentlemen. What I lack in extensive anchoring experience like Mr Cook I make up w a lot of interest and am VERY analytical. And no Tom I didn't appear to buy into the Rocna stuff but I did like the anchor and may have bought one. However word was out that the short scope performance was low so I was standoffish and then that Smith guy showed up everywhere and I was turned off more than most. So Smith kept me from buying his own product. Got lucky that time. The XYZ intrigues me a lot and I wasted $300 on the first one and am into the 2nd one $400. So for that brand I'm going to be your personnel anchor tester but some to most of you won't get the XYZ because it's a bit awkward on a bow roller. Most all of you would need the 33#. With the 18lb XYZ I will be hauling it aboard and stowing it aft. I do have the option of slightly modifying the anchor roller and stowing it in the usual place on the bow. But I'm way ahead of myself in that I hav'nt tried it out at all yet. And as Carl points out the test results on XYZ are A+ to E-. One test used an XYZ similar to mine and it failed badly so** .....

Walt,****** I looked at your link to the Force anchors and it led me to Ireland! Did you order your anchor from across the Atlantic? The photos show great promise (in my opinion) as they are visually like the Plastimo. But the Plastimo is available in Seattle. And now that I know some of you guys are actually listening to me I'll need to be more careful what I say. Now I'm more motivated to try the XYZ but It's snowing out there today. And last but very significantly we should all reread what Mr Cook had to say about his VERY EXTENSIVE experience with the Bruce. If we ever get this sorted out it may turn out that ther'es really not much difference between all the anchors. Anyway I'm still intrigued by the anchors and am glad I have some company.
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:23 PM   #85
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RE: Rocna revealed

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nomadwilly wrote:
Walt,****** I looked at your link to the Force anchors and it led me to Ireland! Did you order your anchor from across the Atlantic?
******* It was on my birthday, a few years ago when my wife and I were at the San Diego Boat Show. We were in the area of used brokerage boats* and there was this guy sitting in the cockpit of his sport fisher with the force anchor. He had a very crude "For Sale" sign by the anchor and the price attracted me. (Knowing what these polished SS anchors are worth.) I stopped to talk to him and about 20 minutes later I walked off with the anchor. It looks great on my boat and I have had a lot of positive comments on it. But as I stated earlier, it's mainly jewelry & I have no idea if it even works but I it! *

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Old 04-17-2011, 09:48 PM   #86
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RE: Rocna revealed

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dwhatty wrote:
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:05 AM   #87
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Rocna revealed

So lets see.* The perfect anchor should be strong, well-designed, functional, and shaped to as to deploy from common bow set-ups.* It should also roll over from any position and set quickly, with minimal liklihood of chain fouling the fluke, and with a sharp point for rapid setting and digging in, thus then presenting as large a fluke area as possible to the substrate it is embedded in when set.* That would suggest it look something like this.....

Super SARCA Anchors
<a href="http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video" target="_blank">http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video
</a>
Meantime, the maker of Sarca, which I suspect is truly the best all-round anchor in the world, is sitting quietly back, letting their owners sell them for him, based on real life use, experience, and word of mouth, while the makers of the wannabes wreck themselves on the rocks of their own egos and miss-information......
Hang in there guys...I think they will be coming, and from a manufacturer near you, in the not too distant future.


-- Edited by Peter B on Monday 18th of April 2011 05:08:16 AM
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:54 AM   #88
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RE: Rocna revealed

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Peter B wrote:

Meantime, the maker of Sarca, which I suspect is truly the best all-round anchor in the world, is sitting quietly back, letting their owners sell them for him, based on real life use, experience, and word of mouth, while the makers of the wannabes wreck themselves on the rocks of their own egos and miss-information......
Hang in there guys...I think they will be coming, and from a manufacturer near you, in the not too distant future.

-- Edited by Peter B on Monday 18th of April 2011 05:08:16 AM
Hope so.* It would be my first choice as well, at least the Excel would be....

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Old 04-18-2011, 09:16 AM   #89
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RE: Rocna revealed

Peter,

I think you hit on something w your elements of the perfect anchor. Most all anchors are simply a modified version of an already existing anchor. That's not "design". That's just a refinement of someone else's design. I can do that. You can do that. Anybody can do that. The definition of design is "an organized solution to a problem". An anchor design should be the result of addressing the requirements of a problem such as stated by Peter. It's impossible but the designer should think completely outside the box and not be led down paths of only partial success. Just because the Super Sarca has a shank dos'nt mean he copied anchors w shanks but arrived at the shank all on their own. I think the Super Sarca is close to an original design whereas the Excell is not. That dos'nt mean an anchor has to be a freak to be a good design but if it is an original design arrived at largely out of the box it has a greater potential to be a breakthrough product. This is what I like about the XYZ. It's designed by a DESIGNER who has designed other successful and innovative products. The fact that he has been a boater all his life is a MINOR element of his qualifications as a designer. The first XYZ (see pic) does look a lot like the XYZ I just bought but is significantly different. It's a study in evolution. Also the fact that I hung on one of these original XYZ anchors for a full day and night in 50 knot winds and the little thing (13lbs) held fast. Makes me think if they ever get it right it could be the mother of all anchors. Could even be that now and to think I'm not a gambler.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:58 PM   #90
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RE: Rocna revealed

What's the rear view mirror for?

Sorry, couldn't resist the first thought through my mind*when I saw the pic.

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Old 04-18-2011, 02:32 PM   #91
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RE: Rocna revealed

The Sarca Ex-cel looks a lot like a Delta to me.... and I like Deltas a lot! Had them on my last*two boats.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:56 PM   #92
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RE: Rocna revealed

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Steve wrote:
What's the rear view mirror for?

Sorry, couldn't resist the first thought through my mind*when I saw the pic.
* * * ** Ditto!

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Old 04-18-2011, 04:55 PM   #93
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RE: Rocna revealed

Walt, Steve,

Like the roll bar it (the rear view mirror) gets it right side up when it gets itself up side down.

Bendit,

As I said** ...most anchors are a copy of some other anchor. I've talked to Delta owners and all seem pleased w them. Like the Rocna I think they lever themselves out on short scope* ...at least to some extent. I knew a guy w a Commander that had one and he cruised far and wide like our Commander guys. Everyone I know w a Commander goes thousands of miles every year. So he's probably anchored hundreds of times and he gives the Delta thumbs up.
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:08 PM   #94
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RE: Rocna revealed

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nomadwilly wrote:
Walt, Steve,

Like the roll bar it (the rear view mirror) gets it right side up when it gets itself up side down.

Bendit,

As I said** ...most anchors are a copy of some other anchor. I've talked to Delta owners and all seem pleased w them. Like the Rocna I think they lever themselves out on short scope* ...at least to some extent. I knew a guy w a Commander that had one and he cruised far and wide like our Commander guys. Everyone I know w a Commander goes thousands of miles every year. So he's probably anchored hundreds of times and he gives the Delta thumbs up.
*I have a Delta and it works well.* It is especially good on grass or mud bottoms.* I have had Danforths, and think they can't be beat in sand.* At least that's my experience.* Eric is right.* I give the Delta as much scope as I can or is needed.* With enough scope it has never let me down.

*
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Old 04-19-2011, 06:35 AM   #95
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RE: Rocna revealed

Interesting how several have mentioned the likeness between the Sarca Excel and the Delta. I agree, and when I took this up with the maker/designer he said it was because so many boaters put aesthetics ahead of function, and think the Super Sarca like mine, (the left hand pic), are too agricultural, and also do not fit as nicely as the Excel (right hand pic in my post) in the trendy bowsprits, especially those with the anchor slot through the sprit rather than out over the end. So they developed the concept to address that, at the same time going to great pains to retain quick and reliable setting and high holding power. The thing is, it has resulted in an anchor which looks very much like the Delta and Ultra, (although there are subtle but important differences), and all of these are good anchors, but not ground-breaking as Eric mentioned, and that's what I like about my agricultural Super Sarca. Its a 'take no prisoners' looking thing, and I love it.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:53 AM   #96
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RE: Rocna revealed

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Peter B wrote:
Interesting how several have mentioned the likeness between the Sarca Excel and the Delta. I agree, and when I took this up with the maker/designer he said it was because so many boaters put aesthetics ahead of function, and think the Super Sarca like mine, (the left hand pic), are too agricultural, and also do not fit as nicely as the Excel (right hand pic in my post) in the trendy bowsprits, especially those with the anchor slot through the sprit rather than out over the end. So they developed the concept to address that, at the same time going to great pains to retain quick and reliable setting and high holding power. The thing is, it has resulted in an anchor which looks very much like the Delta and Ultra, (although there are subtle but important differences), and all of these are good anchors, but not ground-breaking as Eric mentioned, and that's what I like about my agricultural Super Sarca. Its a 'take no prisoners' looking thing, and I love it.
*Peter, any comment on the Sarca claim that their anchor brings up less of the bottom because of the convex shape of the flukes?* Makes sense to me, but I wondered if that was your experience as well.

On the long running soap opera looking into Rocna claims of metallurgy, testing results and certification that don't pass the sniff test, Manson has posted an independent lab's results of a destructive test of the Manson and the Rocna.* I'm trying to find out what, in layman's terms, these results mean as a percentage of strength as claimed by Rocna vs. what has been measured, and if I get an intelligible answer to the question I'll post it.* Anecdotally, someone sent me an email indicating that the test results showed the Rocna to be 25-50% weaker than claimed, and certainly a great deal less robust than the less expensive Manson.* This would seem to expose retailers of this product to a fair amount of potential liability, especially if they keep selling them after knowing that they aren't manufacured as advertised.

Here's the link to the Rocna results:* http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Supreme_Anchor_high_standards/11-031%20Tensile%20Manson%20Anchor%207Apr11VA.pdf

And the link to the comparative Manson results: http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SiteP...018Apr11VB.pdf
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Old 04-19-2011, 02:25 PM   #97
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RE: Rocna revealed

Carl,

I think on these anchors "bringing up the bottom" has more to do w the roll bar. But the convex/concave shape definitely does differ in their ability to do that. The concave fluke like the Spade is said to have better performance for that reason and that brand of Anchor does hold extremely well. I prefer flat myself.

Peter,

You're chummy w someone at Anchor Right ...would it be Rex? He seems like a good straight shooter to me. I suspect the roll bar may not even be needed on the Super Sarca. Wonder if they'ed ever tried it. I think I remember hearing those slots in the fluke was to relieve suction on pullout. I'll bet they don't need the slots either. See what Rex says about that.
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Old 04-19-2011, 06:17 PM   #98
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Rocna revealed

Quote:
Delfin wrote:
On the long running soap opera looking into Rocna claims of metallurgy, testing results and certification that don't pass the sniff test, Manson has posted an independent lab's results of a destructive test of the Manson and the Rocna.* I'm trying to find out what, in layman's terms, these results mean as a percentage of strength as claimed by Rocna vs. what has been measured, and if I get an intelligible answer to the question I'll post it.* Anecdotally, someone sent me an email indicating that the test results showed the Rocna to be 25-50% weaker than claimed, and certainly a great deal less robust than the less expensive Manson.* This would seem to expose retailers of this product to a fair amount of potential liability, especially if they keep selling them after knowing that they aren't manufacured as advertised.
Here's the link to the Rocna results:* http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Supreme_Anchor_high_standards/11-031%20Tensile%20Manson%20Anchor%207Apr11VA.pdf

And the link to the comparative Manson results: http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SiteP...018Apr11VB.pdf

*If those tests are correct then Rocna is not an option for me. Looking forward to see the final verdict / interpretation of the test results....

Singleprop

*


-- Edited by Singleprop on Tuesday 19th of April 2011 06:18:43 PM
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Old 04-19-2011, 07:19 PM   #99
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Rocna revealed

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Singleprop wrote:
*If those tests are correct then Rocna is not an option for me. Looking forward to see the final verdict / interpretation of the test results....

Singleprop


-- Edited by Singleprop on Tuesday 19th of April 2011 06:18:43 PM

*Probably as a result of an unhealthy and morbid fascination with this whole topic, I spent a little time trying to understand what the tests indicate.* In summary, the tests indicated an ultimate tensile strength (UTS) of 500 MPa for the shanks of the Rocna, which is consistent with them being made of A36 mild steel, and is also consistent with a charge leveled against them by a former employee to this effect.* This is not what is advertised on the Rocna web site, which says this regarding the materials used in its anchors:

"For this reason, the shank on the Rocna is a high tensile quenched and tempered steel, with a grade of around 800 MPa. Its pure resistance to bending is around three times that of mild steel. This adds to the price of the anchor, but compromising this strength is not something we would entertain"* http://www.rocna.com/kb/Anchor_materials


Apparently not only would they entertain making their shanks out of mild steel, they do it.* However, they are happy to charge you as if they did not.* If there is a clearer definition of dishonest dealings, I don't know what it is.

Incidentally, if you look at the Rocna blurb on the Fisheries Supply web site, they quote the 800 MPa figure.* I wonder if they know they are assuming a boat load (no pun intended) of liability by selling a deceptively advertised product on whom lives and property may depend?


*


-- Edited by Delfin on Tuesday 19th of April 2011 07:21:35 PM
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:11 AM   #100
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RE: Rocna revealed

Delfin and Eric you are right, the convex (slightly) shape was settled on after initial trials with a concave fluke, which they felt was not significantly better in holding, and definitely brought up more bottom, (and let's not forget this), damaging the sea bed more in the process. They then went back to the convex shape accepting some slight reduction in absolute holding power - which is seldom ever tested in the conditions the majority anchor, anyway, right? Setting quickly, reliably, and in virtually any bottom substrate is what you want. Yes, the slots do allow for the rinsing off of much of what does stick to the fluke on the way up. I have observed this in clear waters often. What is left is often so little that we hardly ever need to deploy the deck wash, or hose off the anchor itself.
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