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Old 02-04-2011, 03:23 PM   #141
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Thank's Brian and I'm glad your'e still around. My new XYZ has'nt come in the mail yet and I should say I prolly should have bought the Fortress but when it comes to anchors I usually don't stay on one track very long. I also think I should give my Manson a bit more slack and put it more to the test. When I think of Fortress I don't think of the Kedge so I'm quite surprised to see Fortress started w the Kedge. There's a fellow up in Maine that makes a beautiful Herreshoff Kedge that has been on at least one of the tests and did'nt do too shabby. It dragged at 300lbs where the top performing anchors dragged at 900-1000lbs. If one was in a position to double their anchor size (or maybe a bit more) one would do very well w that anchor or even one of the cheap fishing Kedge's. With the Kedge one really dosn't need any chain at all so there would be a weight savings of 1 to several hundred pounds so it's not out of the question. But in soft mud you'd prolly need 3 times the size anchor.
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:46 PM   #142
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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2bucks wrote:

Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?




*
Accroding to Renner, PNW weather books I've read, and personal experience,* the localized geography and other conditions in the*island*can generate winds in excess of 30 mph higher than the overal general forecast, or drop them to near zero.* I would consider those cases to be "well outside" the general area forecast.*

And while I would not consider 5 mph to be "well outside" the general area forecast any boater around here who is at all observant knows that the difference between a 15 knot wind and a 20 knot wind can result in significantly rougher water conditions depending on the directions of the wind and current and the fetch.
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:47 PM   #143
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Let's stop monkeying around here. Just use this one and you won't be dragging anywhere in a blow (if you can get it to where you want to set it).
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:57 PM   #144
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

David--- I believe you have successfully found the solution to Eric's challenge of wanting to anchor in deep water with an all-nylon rode and a 1:1 scope.

Eric--- Forget your XYZ vs Fortress vs Bruce dilemma. Put one of these on Willy's bow and your anchoring frustrations will be over forever. You might need to install that manual windlass you've been talking about, though, to get it up.
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:01 PM   #145
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

We've got a guy here in Thorne Bay has an 85lb Navy anchor and thinks it's the best.
Even claims to have pulled it w lots of chain up on the deck.
Alright David I'll bite***** ....do the girls go with it? How do you know where you're going w a crew like that! I had a boat full of lookers once in Glacier Bay. Got lost. Those girls kept turning my chart upside-down. The most embarrassing part of that outing is that THEY wer'nt lost.
Marin,*** Manual windlass? Looks like it comes w a small part of the crew necessary.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 05:04:44 PM
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:13 PM   #146
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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nomadwilly wrote:

Manual windlass? Looks like it comes w a small part of the crew necessary.

Yes, that's a feature.

*
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:39 PM   #147
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?

*
Accroding to Renner, PNW weather books I've read, and personal experience,* the localized geography and other conditions in the*island*can generate winds in excess of 30 mph higher than the overal general forecast, or drop them to near zero.* I would consider those cases to be "well outside" the general area forecast.*

And while I would not consider 5 mph to be "well outside" the general area forecast any boater around here who is at all observant knows that the difference between a 15 knot wind and a 20 knot wind can result in significantly rougher water conditions depending on the directions of the wind and current and the fetch.
Marin wrote: "1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool."

Minus winds? Well outside the envelope on the low side of a 5mph wind. That's an amazing concept.

*
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:32 PM   #148
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2bucks wrote:
Minus winds? Well outside the envelope on the low side of a 5mph wind. That's an amazing concept.

*
Conversing with you is like conversing with a two year old.* No ability to grasp concepts any more complex than putting the square peg in the square hole.

If a forecast is 25-35 mph and a local wind is 5 mph, that is "well outside the envelope" on the downside.* Now you're going to come back with a nickel-and-dime statement that we were talking about 5 to 15 so "well outside the envelope" on the downside is a minus wind and there's no such thing.* Well, duhhhh.* That, as Eric says, is fly stuff.

The point is that the wind in the islands can vary widely from the forecast average so you cannot assume that if they say 5-15 or 25-30 or 300-450 that that is what the wind everywhere is going to be, which is counter to your "you can always count on the forecast" implication.* You can get caught out in high winds and rough water even though the overall forecast is much more benign.

That doesn't mean boating in the islands is "dangerous" as you said in an earlier comment, it just means that things won't always be what you might think they will be.* And if you happen to get caught in a situation where a local wind is much stronger than the northern waters forecast implies, you could have a problem.

For a description of what can happen I suggest you go back and read Carey's post describing a specific incident in Fossil Bay a few years ago.* To his experience I can add one of our own, also in Fossil Bay, where the northern waters forecast was quite mild, probably 10-20.* But winds came in that afternoon that were so fierce that they were picking people's dinghies up out of the water and flipping them around on their towlines like kites on a string.* Even dinghies with outboards on them.* We sat on our boat violently pitching up and down on the buoy and watching oars, gas cans, and seat cushions zip by us. A few biminis and* dodgers were shredded.* A pair of rafted sailboats on a buoy were pitching and rocking so violently their masts and spreaders were colliding and considerable damage was done before they got the boats apart.

And nobody, including your precious forecasters, had a clue this was coming.* We turned on the radio to see if the forecast had changed.* It was still calling out the mild wind range it had been calling out earlier.* It blew like this for about three hours as I recall, and then calmed right down again.

I know of a simiilar incident over Labor Day, 2009 in Garrison Bay.* Same deal, local winds way higher than the forecast range.* Boating friends we were going to meet their the next day were already there and they told us that boats started dragging all over the bay when this blew in.* Again, not what the forecast would have led anyone to expect.

So don't give me this crap about how you will always know what's coming if you pay attention to the forecasters.* Lots of times, they have no clue, either.

Maybe down in the south sound where you are this sort of thing doesn't happen.* The geography is different than farther north so maybe there aren't the kinds of influences on local winds there are in the islands.* If so then I can understand why you have this impression that a forecast can always be counted on to give you an accurate picture of the wind conditions throughout an area.



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 4th of February 2011 08:35:07 PM
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:12 PM   #149
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin wrote:


"Conversing with you is like conversing with a two year old."


I hope you never say anything like that to me!
What ever happened to the nice old GB guy?
Always helping people out.
Did 2 Bucks really deserve that?

PS
I decided I should read the ofending words before criticizing your tone. I usually read only what interests me. I did and I found myself laughing at times. Any fool knows geography causes significant variations in wind forcasts in localized places as do other variables and neither of you are fools. I personnaly never cared for Jeff Renner and still miss Ray Ramsey. Remember "the rain train"? Any weather forcast is always a best guess and why people seem to think it should actually be accurate is beyond me. Give the guys a break. Ther're just doing their best to help us out**** ....and they really do. Think of what life would be like totally without them.



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 10:12:46 PM
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:20 PM   #150
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nomadwilly wrote: I personnaly never cared for Jeff Renner and still miss Ray Ramsey. Remember "the rain train"? Any weather forcast is always a best guess and why people seem to think it should actually be accurate is beyond me. Give the guys a break. Ther're just doing their best to help us out**** ....and they really do. Think of what life would be like totally without them.

I moved to Seattle at the very end of the Ray Ramsey era.* I seem to recall that at the time a young man named Steve Pool filled in for him from time to time.* Steve is now the top TV weather person in Seattle.

Jeff Renner is a true meteorologist, unlike a lot of TV weatherpeople.* I don't know what his on-air personality or delivery is like--- I have never paid much attention to local TV news.* But Renner does know his stuff and his weather class during the USCG Auxiliary boating course my wife and I took was excellent.

And I agree with you that the weather folks today do a very good job.* But forecasting in this area is particularly difficult, partly because the radar coverage does not yet extend very far out to sea and partly because the unique terrain configuration--- the Olympic Mountains and southern Vancouver Island Ranges and their associated rain shadows, the famous convergence zone, and the weather systems that can come the other way, out of the Fraser Valley--- can conspire to make what the weather people think should happen not happen.

I have found in twenty-five-plus years of flying floats in the PNW, BC and SE Alaska and boating this area starting in 1987 with our first boat that the weather forecasters are quite good at forecasting WHAT will happen, but have a very tough time forecasting WHEN it will happen.* Radar has helped a lot but as I said, there is poor radar coverage out into the Pacific.* And out in the islands forecasting the local winds is, in the words of the NOAA forecaster who gave a weather seminar to a bunch of us floatplane pilots awhile back, "a total crap shoot."* Which is why, he said, they only take it as far down as a general area forecast (now called "Northern Waters").

PS--- I've never made any claim to being nice, although you got the GB owner part right.* Like most of us, I suspect, I'm more inclined to be nice to the people I respect than the people I don't.




-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 12:27:12 AM
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Old 02-05-2011, 08:33 AM   #151
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Man, you guys can bit a bit ornery! Back to the original subject of this thread, please see below a short YouTube video which shows an Australian brand called SARCA out-performing a Rocna and a Manson on a beach pull test.

As you may have seen, Rocna promotes how much faster their anchor will set in a beach video vs. a CQR and other competitors, so this video should be of interest to them.

http://www.youtube.com/user/besn463d.../5/Am4zG7TS97k

It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:30 AM   #152
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Brian-Fortress wrote:

It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."
It gets worse.* I believe that SARCA copied the roll bar from the inventor of the Bruce.* I going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor.* As soon as I work out the bow roller, I'll post it on YouTube.

*
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:37 AM   #153
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Delfin wrote:


Brian-Fortress wrote:

It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."
It gets worse.* I believe that SARCA copied the roll bar from the inventor of the Bruce.* I going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor.* As soon as I work out the bow roller, I'll post it on YouTube.

*

CAT copied their blade from the plow.

*Don't know who the plow copied.* It must have been something.* There seems to be no originals.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:45 AM   #154
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:" I'm going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor. "
It might be, Don,* but Marin's comment on using a "basket full of rocks" seems to
be much more available and is certainly more economical to replace.

*
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:51 AM   #155
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Dosn't look to me that anyone copied anything to get the Bruce.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:52 AM   #156
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Brian-Fortress wrote:It seems like SARCA was copied by Rocna who was copied by Manson, so this reality series might be called "Anchor Drama from Down Under."
Actually that is not correct.* The first anchor to incorporate a roll bar was the Bügel in Germany which was developed sometime in the 1980s.* When Peter Smith in New Zealand started trying to figure out a better anchor for his own cruising purposes (he apparently had no thought of creating an anchor for commercial production) he combined features of other anchors he thought were good ideas and refined them.* He says he took the rollbar idea from the Bügel.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 10:54:13 AM
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:55 AM   #157
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:" I'm going back to my original belief that a submerged D9 CAT makes the best anchor. "
It might be, Don,* but Marin's comment on using a "basket full of rocks" seems to
be much more available and is certainly more economical to replace.

*

Yeah, but it seems Delfin has unlimited funds.* BTW* Who holds the patent on rocks, and who did the basket copy?

*
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:38 AM   #158
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The anchor basket was copied from an Egyptian design. Egypt still holds the rights to the design, and one of the lesser-known reasons for the current protests against the government is Mubarak's laxity in enforcing the collection of royalties on the anchor basket. This has contributed to the poor state of the Egyptian economy. The Greeks were not the only people to rip off the design. The Romans used it too, with refinements-- they reinforced the lip of the basket with a metal hoop and in later versions made the handle of the basket out of iron, as well.

The design also migrated over to Asia, where it was copied by both the Chinese and Japanese. In 1253, a Japanese fisherman, searching for a way to make a more reliable anchor, installed a short tapered cone in the bottom of an Egyptian anchor basket and a whole new generation of basket anchors was born. The idea behind the cone was to first ensure that the basket hit the seabed bottom down and then to help hold it upright so the basket would not tip over and spill out some of its rocks, a problem that had plagued this design from the outset. The cone was very effective but it made it difficult to stow the anchor on deck--- it kept falling over and spilling the rocks. So this same fisherman devised a short platform on the bow of his boat that had a hole near its outboard end. The basket sat on the platform with the cone projecting down through the hole. This kept the basket upright and in a position to be quickly deployed.

You can still see this feature on boats today. In Japan this platform was given the name "fujisake" meaning (literally) "an intoxicated Mt. Fuji" because of the upside down cone that fit into it. The English name for this platform is "pulpit." I don't know how this name evolved other than there is perhaps some resemblance to a pulpit in a church or chapel.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 5th of February 2011 11:41:04 AM
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Old 02-05-2011, 01:07 PM   #159
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin,
Brian didn't even mention the roll bar. How could he be incorrect about the roll bar when he didn't even mention it?

Marin wrote that Smith said*** ..."He says he took the roll bar idea from the Bügel."

Are you saying we should believe what Peter Smith said? He has lots of opinion but I'd need more objective data to take that as fact. And thank you Marin for including "He says". But I do think your'e right that the roll bar came from the Bugel. I think the bar itself adds a lot of drag and the interference drag induced by the bar, fluke and the shape of the bar itself acts like the interference drag caused between the 2 wings of a biplane.
All of this drag adds very significantly to the holding power the surface area of the fluke so the sum total of the resistance is greater than most anchors. In view of the fact that the roll bar probably pitches the fluke upwards and prevents the fluke from burying completely or frequently very deep at all limits the holding power. I've never seen the Manson Supreme or the Rocna bury itself. I don't see how an anchor can be anywhere near the perfect anchor unless it does bury.
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Old 02-05-2011, 01:32 PM   #160
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Well, the Bruce/claw types may not have the greatest holding power per pound of anchor, but*it has a well-earned reputation for performing in most conditions, sets easily, and usually stays buried*or resets itself to conform with boat movements due to changing currents/winds.
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