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Old 02-01-2011, 05:02 PM   #121
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Hey Walt,
I kinda figured you'd be plow'in along here in rocket science class. No sweat Walt** ...you're all set as I recall. But I'll bet Mark's about ready to make a post like yours.
Brian if some of us should want a Fortress (anodized I assume) can you show us some bow chocks and/or rollers so we could stow them on the bow like a Bruce? Walt would need chrome plating of course. How a bout colored ano** ..blue or gold.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 06:02:46 PM
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:12 PM   #122
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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__________________________________________________ _____________
We are committing "mental masturbation" on this subject and only proving that you need the "heaviest" anchor your windlass will handle.* (big rocks in a basket)* Regardless of what the bottom is, "big rocks in a basket" should hold.*
Or "Analysis Paralysis."* Kind of like a discussion about the "Perfect Woman."* Worthwhile, yes.....but would a consensus be ever reached?* Doubtful.
Talk about the Greeks with "big rocks in a basket,"......well have a look at the first Fortress anchor (attachments below).

Ain't she a beauty!

Brian

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Old 02-01-2011, 06:15 PM   #123
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Thanks for your professional attitude, Brian.* I hope I don't have to use your product as I carry it as a storm anchor but if I do, I know it will perform as described.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:30 PM   #124
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Brian,
Thanks for the candid answers about the strengths and weaknesses of your product. Our lunch hook is a hinged plow- but I swap out for my Fortress anytime we overnight. It is a great product for our sand/ mud bottoms.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:36 PM   #125
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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nomadwilly wrote:

*No sweat Walt** ...you're all set as I recall. But I'll bet Mark's about ready to make a post like yours.


*
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:46 PM   #126
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Brian-Fortress wrote:


I believe that one of the reasons why you do not see more Danforth types mounted on bows is because of their gangly appearance
I think it depends on where you are. Danforth-type anchors seem very common on boats in the SFO Bay area.* It's what was on our boat when we bought it out of Alameda and I noticed other boats in the marina where it was kept had Danforth-types too.* But SFO Bay*and the Sacramento river and delta are mostly mud bottoms I believe, so a Danforth type is an ideal design for that area.* The heavy*Danforth knock-off that was on our boat stowed very nicely on the*pulpit, by the way although the anchor's stock had knocked chips out of the gelcoat all the way up the stem as it revolved during retrieval.* Not a problem on a boat with a longer pulpit or raked bow.

From what I hear the*issue with Danforth-type*anchors up here, at least in the smaller, lighter sizes most of us use, is that they are not*as good as*other types in weedy bottoms, which we get a lot of, and coarse gravelly bottoms, which we also get a lot of.* I've heard lots of stories related*about rocks or other bottom debris getting caught in the flukes of a Danforth-type and preventing it from setting very well or at all.* This doesn't seem to be much of a problem with Bruce/claw, CQR/plow, or Rocna/Manson/spade anchors.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:11 PM   #127
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:

...*Danforth-type anchors seem very common on boats in the SFO Bay area.* It's what was on our boat when we bought it out of Alameda and I noticed other boats in the marina where it was kept had Danforth-types too.* But SFO Bay*and the Sacramento river and delta are mostly mud bottoms I believe, so a Danforth type is an ideal design for that area.*
I got tired of pulling up a "ton" of sticky SF Bay mud with the Danforth, and didn't appreciate getting my hands pinched carrying it*to/from the bow for deployment/retrieval.* A one-piece, smaller-fluked Bruce/claw worked well enough without the inconveniences.

*
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:58 PM   #128
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great? I've had many compliments on it and it goes quite well with the chain stopper and Muir Atlantic 1000RC. What do I use when I anchor? Depends on the bottom as I carry a 15kg Danforth and a 15kg Bruce. Oh, and I use a swivel!
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:04 PM   #129
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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SeaHorse II wrote:

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great? I've had many compliments on it and it goes quite well with the chain stopper and Muir Atlantic 1000RC. What do I use when I anchor? Depends on the bottom as I carry a 15kg Danforth and a 15kg Bruce. Oh, and I use a swivel!
Very stylish, Walt.* I would sure like to see it swivel!

*
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:21 PM   #130
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin,
I hear Rocna's and Manson Supreme's get rocks and other stuff stuck in the hole defined by the roll bar. Better set your anchor hard and if it drags***** ...could be there's stuff in the hole.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:31 AM   #131
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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SeaHorse II wrote:

Here's a shot of the anchor that's presently on my bow. It's a 20kg Force SS. Doesn't it look great?
Yes it does.* It goes well with your "Cary Grant"*slim, suave*cruiser.* On the other hand, my "Ernest Borgnine" fat, ugly (but handsome in its own rugged way)*trawler*should go well with*a galvanized version.

*
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:37 AM   #132
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:Marin,

I hear Rocna's and Manson Supreme's get rocks and other stuff stuck in the hole defined by the roll bar. Better set your anchor hard and if it drags***** ...could be there's stuff in the hole.
________________________________________
Eric, you never said a truer word.* The only two times my Sarca dragged was once when we dropped her on pure smooth rock, and the rumble as we dragged spilled the beans straight away, and once when by pure fluke (no pun intended), she gathered up, off a fairly firm sand/gravel bottom, one huge rock.* It must have been sitting proud on the bottom, and it got scooped up in such a way it was literally balanced on the fluke just touching one side of the roll bar.* However, it was no drama because even in light current/wind situation, we clearly dragged immediately, so I smelt a rat straight away and pulled her up, wondering why the winch was almost labouring until this rock appeared.* A light touch with my toe sent it plunging, we re-dropped the pick, and all was well.*
The point being with these roll-bar sharp-fluked type of anchors, they either set immediately, or there is something significant which prevents it, and it becomes clear virtually immediately, so remedial action can be taken long before one might be bedding down.
Coming back to one comment you made re your Manson Supreme - your said it sets quickly, but does not feel firmly set sometimes.* It might be you are cranking away in reverse trying to set it like a plough would need, but it does not need that.* In so doing you might just be pulling it along just under the surface of the bottom.* These anchors really are best left to largely set my themselves with just the natual pull of wind and tide after just a wee tug to get the point down and in.* Then over time they burrow deeper.* Maybe you should try that approach with your M/S again some time and see if I'm right?
*
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:29 AM   #133
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

Perhaps someone could document when the last hurricane force winds came thru the Puget Sound? Or even the last time we saw winds over 50 mph that weren't forcast in advance, giving recreational boaters the chance to seek shelter.
Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date) the highest gust recorded in the Bellingham Bay area was 84 mph.* The sustained winds were some 60 mph or more.* The data I saw for this was recorded by the anemometer on the roof of Bellingham Cold Storage in Squalicum Marina but the same winds were recorded by other stations in the same area and on either side of Rosario Strait on both Lummi and Orcas islands.* It happens, and in the northern Sound, at any rate, winds higher than forecast are not uncommon at all.* It was exactly this sort of occurance that caused us such grief back when we had our Bruce.

One of the problems with forecasting winds in the islands (we were told by KING-TV meteorologist Jeff Renner who taught the weather class in the USCG Auxilliary boating class we took) is that the conditions created by the proximity and configuration of the islands, bays, channels, and passes in the San Juans and Gulfs can accelerate or decelerate winds in a way that is totally unpredictable and unforecastable (if that's a word).* So where the average wind in the northern waters may be 30 mph, there can be certain passes between islands where the winds can be almost twice that, and other passes where the winds may be almost calm.

It not ucnommon to go out on a typical day when the overall northern waters wind forecast calls for SW winds @ 5-15 knots and you find four foot waves in Bellingham Bay driven by 20-25 knot winds.* Turn the corner into Rosario Strait and it's 1 to 2-foot waves and 10 knots.



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 31st of January 2011 02:28:53 AM
So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

I didn't think we'd ever agree on anything.

Ken
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:44 PM   #134
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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1.* So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


2.* And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

*
1.* I didn't document it because that's not my job.* It is presumably in the data at the Bellingham Cold Storage weather station and since it was blowing hard there it was undoubtedly blowing hard up the airport only a few miles away so I suspect the weather weenies have a record of it too.

2.* The fact that it CAN blow at different speeds through the islands and DOES blow at* different speeds though the islands is a lot different than knowing exactly HOW HARD it will blow in any given place and WHERE all the different* speeds will be.* In oher words, the winds down amongst the islands are unpredictable, which is what Renner said.* Now what part of the word "unpredictable" do you not understand so I can help you out?

If it was predictable, they'd tell us what the wind will be in Thatcher Pass and Lopez Pass and Upright Channel and Obstruction Pass and around Prevost Island and down through Montegue.* But they don't.* Why?* Because it's totally unpredictable (sorry, there's that big word again).* They can forecast the basic wind speed for the whole area, but not what it will be down in the individual passes and bays.

And since factors like water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure all affect wind speeds and direction, it can't even be accurately guessed at what it will blow in all these places.** So you can say, it's usually real windy and rough in Lopez Pass under such-and-such conditions, and then one day under those conditions you assume it will be real windy and rough and you get there to find that Lopez Pass is almost dead calm.* Or the other way round.* This has happened to us countless times all through the islands.* I realize it's a hard concept to grasp, unpredictability, but that's what it is.

*
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:16 PM   #135
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:
1.* So you didn't document when it was, "Last winter (or possibly the winter before, I don't remember the date)".


2.* And*by knowing about the wind behaving differently in certain areas, then you agree that they can be predicted and avoided. You did say that it was "common" and that Jeff Renner told you about it in advance.

*
1.* I didn't document it because that's not my job.* It is presumably in the data at the Bellingham Cold Storage weather station and since it was blowing hard there it was undoubtedly blowing hard up the airport only a few miles away so I suspect the weather weenies have a record of it too.

2.* The fact that it CAN blow at different speeds through the islands and DOES blow at* different speeds though the islands is a lot different than knowing exactly HOW HARD it will blow in any given place and WHERE all the different* speeds will be.* In oher words, the winds down amongst the islands are unpredictable, which is what Renner said.* Now what part of the word "unpredictable" do you not understand so I can help you out?

If it was predictable, they'd tell us what the wind will be in Thatcher Pass and Lopez Pass and Upright Channel and Obstruction Pass and around Prevost Island and down through Montegue.* But they don't.* Why?* Because it's totally unpredictable (sorry, there's that big word again).* They can forecast the basic wind speed for the whole area, but not what it will be down in the individual passes and bays.

And since factors like water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure all affect wind speeds and direction, it can't even be accurately guessed at what it will blow in all these places.** So you can say, it's usually real windy and rough in Lopez Pass under such-and-such conditions, and then one day under those conditions you assume it will be real windy and rough and you get there to find that Lopez Pass is almost dead calm.* Or the other way round.* This has happened to us countless times all through the islands.* I realize it's a hard concept to grasp, unpredictability, but that's what it is.

*

I never realized how absolutely foolhardy and dangerous it was to cruise the islands. For 32 years I've been cruising between Olympia on the south end and the Broughtons on the north, and never knew that. I'd always used the general forcast to get a general idea of what winds to expect.

Your post seems to indicate that even if it's calm with a light breeze in one area, there may be hurricane force wind in another a mile away because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

I wonder why the newscasts do that. They give a forcast of "5-15 mph winds from the south"*for an area and they know perfectly well that "water temperature, land mass temperature, air temperature, humidity and pressure" will affect the wind and that it won't be even remotely accurate. Hmmmm.......*
And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:26 PM   #136
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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2bucks wrote:

1. ....because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

2. And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.
1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool.

2.* No problem.* Glad to help out.* Multi-syllable concepts can be tricky, no question.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 3rd of February 2011 06:27:17 PM
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:55 AM   #137
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:


2bucks wrote:

1. ....because the wind is, what's the phrase again? Oh yes, it's "Because it's totally unpredictable"

2. And one more thing, thanks for explaining those big words for me.
1.* Hey, you finally got it!* I'm impressed.* I would have thought that in 32 years of cruising you would have figured out that "5-15"* is an average area prediction and that the winds in a specific location can be well outside that envelope on either side.* But then perhaps you didn't have the benefit of Jeff Renner explaining it to you, so I*can understand your confusion.* But now you know.* Cool.

2.* No problem.* Glad to help out.* Multi-syllable concepts can be tricky, no question.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 3rd of February 2011 06:27:17 PM
Now you need to explain one more thing for me. If the wind is forcast for 5-15 mph, would 20 mph be "well" outside the forcast? I would think that 30 would be, for sure, but only 5 mph, could that be considered "well" outside?



*
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:11 AM   #138
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

guys!

I have noted a change in forecasting styles over the last 35 years. Whereas in those long ago times the weatherguys tried to be accurate, and occasionally they were, nowadays they try to cover their liable a**es. So if ever there is a blow, it will fall within what they have predicted. Marin has noted that it blows a lot harder now than it used to, and just reviewing the old forecasts will bear that out. I haven't noticed any trend in that direction, just in its forecasting.
Occasionally, they stiill get it wrong, but generally, with the current margin for error skewed, a too light forecast is a rare event. Much more frequently, the forecast blow happens only in the open water, and cant be felt in the islands at all, or doesn't happen anywhere you ever hear about.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:02 AM   #139
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Keith,
That's very true up here. And there's a really big difference tween the weather (wind) out in the Strait and in the bay. Too big a difference I think. It can be blow'in 50 outside and hardly 20 in the Bay. We have the forecast on the computer that comes from the weather channel and I think it's actually the Ketchikan forecast. (45 mi away) The phone forecast is better. They call it "southern inner channels". And there's two versions. The public forcast and the marine version. And it's amazing how different they are. Like the wind in the winter (and temperature) in Bellingham v/s Everett and Seattle. We have many more micro systems up here. Local differences in geography cause all kinds of amazing little weather zones. We came across Dixon Entrance one day and the weather was "fair" but when we got to Ketchikan it was blow'in 40 or more w at least 3' seas right in the harbor.
It was a bit of a white knuckle experience getting into our assigned slip and Willy is usually not very susceptible to being blown around in harbors. But getting back to forecasts I think forecasters everywhere tend to error toward the bad*** ...no doubt to cover their backsides. If they say it's going to blow and it does fine but if they don't we stone'em.

PS
Bow rollers do exist for Danforth type anchors.

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/produ...=Anchor+roller

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 4th of February 2011 11:10:31 AM
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:18 AM   #140
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Eric,

Windline in CA has a nice product line of rollers for Danforth/Fortress type anchors as well:

https://windline.com/index.php?act=viewmodels&cat=18

Regards,
Brian

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