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Old 01-31-2011, 01:53 AM   #101
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
markpierce wrote:After testing, I'll*either return it or purchase it.*
Given the length of time the Rocna has been on the market, the number that are in use in all different sizes around the world, and the volume of independent testimonials praising the anchor's attributes, I'm going to hazard a guess that they will probably pass on your suggestion although it never hurts to ask

But should you at some point decide to try a Rocna on your own dime, you don't have to get one shipped up from New Zealand.* They are also made in Vancouver, BC by Suncoast Marine and you can pick them up directly from the factory or buy them at West Marine (and perhaps other marine outlets as well).

I don't know if West Marine actually stocks these anchors in the stores, but I'm sure your local WM can order one in for you.* This is a good thing since the shipping cost of an anchor from New Zealand is, I was told by the Rocna company, pretty staggering.

PS-- I just checked and Rocna's are also available from Fisheries Supply in Seattle.* They are apparently not available from Defender.



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 31st of January 2011 03:02:35 AM
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:02 AM   #102
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

*Send me a PM and I'll*give my mailing address.*
Gee, my address is a matter of public record because my under-contruction boat is USCG-documented.* So Craig, no PM is needed unless you want to notify me you've sent the anchor.

*
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:06 AM   #103
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*

Given the length of time the Rocna has been on the market, the number that are in use in all different sizes around the world, and the volume of independent testimonials praising the anchor's attributes, I'm going to hazard a guess that they will probably pass on your suggestion although it never hurts to ask
Marin, I'm giving them the opportunity to put their money (anchor) where there mouth is.* I have no axes to grind.* I want a good anchor.




*


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 31st of January 2011 03:31:07 AM
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:46 AM   #104
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Craig Smith wrote:

Rocna offer a no-questions-asked money back guarantee with every sale, which is tantamount to precisely the same thing at the end of the day, so go nuts!
I don't appreciate your attitude or tone, Craig.

*
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:48 AM   #105
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Mark, forget Craig's tone for the moment. I have to say he has not done a lot for the cause in some of his presentations, but the simple fact is, if you really want a good anchor, and the Rocna is available without too much hassles, then I strongly recommend you get one, and that from Sarca owner. (Yes Eric, they [Sarcas] do look a bit agricultural - things where form is subservient to function often do......) However, if I had to choose from what is available to you, then of the rest, the Rocna is the one I would get, and the same advice goes to Nomadwilly, as we are not in the business of cutting off our noses to spite our face, or standing on our dignity, we are interested in quick, repeatedly reliable, effective, and safe anchoring, and that's what you would get, and at anything from 3:1 scope upwards, depending on conditions.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:18 AM   #106
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Before making an anchor selection, it might be a good idea to first consult the "Horizontal Loads Table" that is published by American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC). This will give you a good idea of the holding power requirements of your boat.

Here's a sampling of this table under point 1:

http://www.fortressanchors.com/safe_anchoring.html

Since we are talking about trawlers, which generally have above average beam & windage, I would go up a boat size from that chart.

Next, I would check the anchor manufacturer's own holding power tables to see what size anchor meets the requirements of your boat. As a manufacturer of safety equipment, these holding power numbers should be provided.

In the case of Fortress, we publish hard sand (optimal for holding) and soft mud (poor for holding) figures, which gives you a "best case, worst case" performance scenario.

Regards,
Brian

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Old 01-31-2011, 10:38 AM   #107
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

*
Marin wrote:

*

Given the length of time the Rocna has been on the market, the number that are in use in all different sizes around the world, and the volume of independent testimonials praising the anchor's attributes, I'm going to hazard a guess that they will probably pass on your suggestion although it never hurts to ask
Marin, I'm giving them the opportunity to put their money (anchor) where there mouth is.* I have no axes to grind.* I want a good anchor.

I understand where you're coming from but unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, the business world doesn't work that way.* Otherwise Boeing would be giving airplanes for free to airlines saying "Try it for awhile and if you like it buy it and if you don't give it back."* There are times when a manufacturer introducing a brand new (and usually* inexpensive) product will offer a "try it free" incentive.* But it's rare this ever happens with something that's expensive to manufacture so requires a tracking system for every item to ensure that the person using it does, in fact, either buy it or return it.

The money-back guarantee is a more sensible approach since it doesn't require the manufacturer to be keeping track of hundreds or thousands of items.* But the consumer sitll has a chance to return the item and get their money back if it does't work out for them within a reasonable amount of time.

I don't know how many anchor manufacturers have this policy, but given the unsophisticated, low-tech nature of what they're selling I'm rather surprised any of them do.* Anchors seem like a "do your research, pay your money, and take your chances" sort of product to me.* But if Rocna or any other anchor manufacturer you might be interested in offers this sort of money-back guarantee it could well be worth taking advantage of.

*
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:04 AM   #108
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

XYZ offers a money back guarantee. I have the old style XYZ and it dosn't set well** ...
in fact it dosn't set at all most of the time but they have had a basically new anchor out for some time that may work very well. Has anybody here tried it??? I'm not keen on money back deals as once a company HAS your money they can at least drag their feed about giving it back. And I'd worry they'd point to a section of fine print that would not permit me to get my money back at all. I'll try and put a picture of my XYZ on this post but look at the XYZ site.

http://www.xyzanchor.com/

I checked the site and see that they now have a 33lb anchor. It's $495 and they offer shipping to Australia and New Zealand for $70. My old XYZ seemed the perfect anchor once it set. I rode out a gale in Willy several years ago with the anchor in my picture.
That anchor is 13lbs. The new style is offered in 18lb and 33lb.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 31st of January 2011 12:07:42 PM

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 31st of January 2011 12:28:23 PM
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:00 PM   #109
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

I got tired of waiting. Bought the "next generation" XYZ. It's a gamble of course but I've got lots of backup. Never heard from SARCA. So after some time I'll be able to report about a product nobody else has tried. I'll take it down to the south arm, set it good, turn the boat around, tie the anchor off on the stern and try to pull the XYZ out. But more important I'll try setting it at different scopes and fast and slow. If it fails I'll just use my Manson Supreme and Danforth on the first trip of the year. Plan to circumnavigate Baranof Island and then some.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:14 AM   #110
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

HYPE is necessary for the anchor builders , after all it is a very expensive item by the pound , priced about at aircraft levels .
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:37 AM   #111
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

FF,
You can buy airplanes for $22. a pound? I just figured out that that's what I used to pay for ultralights. I'll bet Pipers and the like are a bit more.
While talking to John Drago at XYZ several interesting things came out of the conversation. The Rocna isn't as perfect as it seems. None of the roll bar anchors burry themselves very far into the sea bed. The SARCA does much better than the Manson Supreme or the Rocna. The latter stay fairly close to the surface kinda plowing along.
But while they plow along they obviously develop considerable holding power. The only anchor in all the videos I've watched that buries itself completely is the XYZ. Also the MS and R can get stuff (seaweed, rocks and sticks of wood) wedged in the roll bar hole. Also I should add that the lower short scope performance of the Rocna is probably not as significant as I had thought but still a small issue. At least two anchor tests have mentioned the short scope issue and quite frankly the tests are my only source of information about that. I'm coming to the conclusion that the difference in performance of one anchor to the next is WAY closer than the tests indicate. I bought the XYZ in that it's the only one of two options that allow me to safely anchor Willy by hand deploying my ground tackle. The other is Fortress. I decided to try XYZ first.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:38 AM   #112
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Eric,

I recently discussed Rocna with Robert Taylor, formerly of the US Navy and one of the world's foremost experts on soil mechanics & anchor design. Bob holds degrees in civil and ocean engineering, and he has designed anchoring systems for the US Navy and offshore industries for over 40 years. Bob wrote the anchor performance guides for the American Petroleum Institute.

I think Bob's comments would be applicable for any roll bar type anchor. In summary:

(1.) The huge roll bar will be a "penetration inhibitor."

I suspect that this might be part of the reason for the Rocna's (2 stars) & Bugel's (3 stars) poor performance in the clay bottom Swedish test that I referenced earlier. It is possible that in a harder soil, the clay might have collected in the fluke and then around the huge roll bar, which might have kept the anchor from penetrating deeper.

(2.) The fluke angle is fixed and is optimized for hard soils, and it cannot be adjusted for softer soils, and so performance will suffer in that type of bottom, i.e. soft mud.

This fact is what led Fortress to design the "adjustable fluke angle", where you can set the anchor at 32 for hard soils, and then open up the fluke angle to 45 for soft mud, which will dramatically increase the holding power.

I have attached a couple of images that might illustrate this feature better, along with the results of an anchor test that was conducted by a magazine in France and later translated for the UK magazine Yachting Monthly.


Regards,
Brian

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-- Edited by Brian-Fortress on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 11:52:33 AM
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:22 AM   #113
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Maybe a better image of the test? *I added another page with the write up of the anchors.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:52 AM   #114
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

The latter [Rocna] stay fairly close to the surface kinda plowing along.
Eric--- Kind of a long reply here but what's new, right?

Moat anchors have their good and bad points.* Not digging in is not one of Rocna's (or Sarca's, which incorporates the same type of rollbar, or Manson's which also incorporates the same type of rollbar) weak points because it digs in just fine.* This has been shown countless times in videos (and not just the manufacturer's video) and described in user testimonials.

The Fortress has it's good points, too, and it has great holding power in the bottoms for which the design is suited.* But it is not suited for as wide a variety of bottoms as other types of anchors, despite what the manufacturer's reps say.* When we were seriously researching anchors five or six years ago, the Danforth design was given high marks for holding power in sand and mud, and low marks for setting and holding power in just about everything else.* And we have a lot of "everything else" up here.* Which is why, I assume, that of the mainstream anchor designs the least popular in these waters judging from what's on boats' bows, is the Danforth design.

The Fortress is very popular as a stern anchor up here because it's so light.* That's why we bought one.* You're more likely to set out a stern anchor when it could be beneficial if the thing doesn't weigh a ton.* But a problem we read about in a number of places while doing our research is the Fortress' tendency to bend its shank under high side loads.* Probably higher loads than most of us will encounter on a regular basis which is why we had no qualms about buying one for that purpose.

No anchor is perfect for everything so the challenge is to find the best one for your own situation.* The manufacturers are no help in this whatsoever because they will etiher say their own anchor is best for your situation, or if it's been proven not to be they'll tell you why their competitor's anchor is worse.* So I'm never much interested in what a manufacturer says about their product.* Of course they're going to say it's a wonder product and outclasses their competitors.* They'll say that even if their product is absolute crap.* So I regard the comments by the anchor reps who've been posting to this discussion as nothing more than ads.

The ONLY thing I put genuine stock in are independent testimonials by real boaters.* Even an anchor test only duplicates one condition.* But testimonials by boaters who use their anchors regularly in a variety of conditions with a variety of boats--- that's meaningful information that directly relates to how we're going to be using our anchor.* And that's what we paid the most attention to when deciding to replace our Bruce with something better.

While I question the attainability of your goal of holding with a lightweight anchor, lightweight rode, and very short scope, I don't question the way you are going about trying to reach it.* You're getting anchors you want to try and trying them with various types of rodes, scopes, etc.* And you're doing it in the waters you boat in.* So what an anchor rep says about some test conducted God-knows-where under conditions that bear no resemblance whatsoever to what you encounter is pretty meaningless information to you, in my opinion.

The bottom line is that the anchor rep wants you to buy such-and such an anchor because that's his job.* So he'll give you a sales pitch based on whatever hype he can drum up.* He'll quote his experts just like all the other anchor manufacturers quote their own "highly qualified" experts with the credentials to prove it, all of which adds up to nothing.* Experts are a dime a dozen--- my company quotes dozens of them in our campaigns to better our brand image and sell our products.

So I say carry on with what you're doing.* You'll either find the answer or you won't, or you'll perhaps alter your expectations and objectives based on what you learn.* Anchor design is not rocket science despite the manufacturers attempts to try to get you to believe it is. The Greeks did pretty good with big rocks in a basket.* In my opinon, the shapes and sizes of material it takes to dig into and hold in a bottom is based more on logic than on scientific principle.* You don't need to test an anchor in a towing tank, same as you don't need to test a an aircraft wheel chock in a wind tunnel.*

My guess is that many or most of us can look at an anchor design and pretty much determine on our own if the thing is going to work well or not, and why.* There are some things that would seem to defy logic--- the rollbar on the rollbar anchors would seem to prevent them digging in very deep but judging from the videos, photos, and experiences of people who use them, it doesn't.* But other than that I cannot think of very many design engineering challenges that are much simpler than an anchor.* It only has to do two things--- dig into the bottom and hold in the bottom.* If it does those two things well, then it's a good anchor no matter what the design is, what it's made of, or how it accomplishes those two things.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:33 PM   #115
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

C.Marin,

Good points all, and thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed message. As a manufacturer of safety equipment, I think that it is important for us to be upfront and honest about the performance capabilities of our product, so here goes in short summary:

- In sand, mud, or clay bottoms, the Fortress should offer you world class performance.

- In grass, weeds, or rocks.....bottoms in which no anchor is fully 100% dependable, the performance of the Fortress will be average at best, and maybe even much worse than others.

Specifically, in grass and weeds, I have heard conflicting reports about Fortress from our customers. Some will say that it is sharp enough to slice through and get into a firmer bottom, while others say that the anchor slices in and then quickly fouls, and then pulls out the grass or weeds in clumps.

In rocks, a plow type anchor should work better, since the narrow single fluke with a ton of weight behind it should wedge the anchor in between the rocks for a firmer hold, as opposed to the two big wide flukes of the Fortress or Danforth type that might only get the fluke tips in.

Two of the most experienced boaters I know are Tom Neale and E.S. "Mac" Maloney. Tom is a well respected boating writer & author who has lived aboard his boat since 1979 with his wife Mel, and they cruise 3,000 - 5,000 miles per year.

91 year young "Mac" Maloney was the longtime author of Chapman's Piloting & Seamanship. Both guys have CQRs and Fortress on their boats, and that is enough for me.

Thanks again,
Brian

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Old 02-01-2011, 12:38 PM   #116
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Oh Oh** ... looks like I may have screwed up. Perhaps I should have bought the Fortress first. But the anchor in the test is not the one I bought. XYZ calls all of their anchors "Extreme" so it's confusing. Maybe I should go back and re-read the thread on tandem anchoring. Prolly should have just listened to my friends but part of me is'nt built that way.
Marin,
What do you think we anchor in?.......sand and mud. Most all the time*** ..I'd guess 95% of the time. " And we have a lot of "everything else"That's not my experience AT ALL. And most of my anchoring experience has been in Wash. I'll bet if you used a Fortress as your primary anchor you'd prolly not bend it. "No anchor is perfect for everything so the challenge is to find the best one for your own situation." I thought that's why you got the Rocna*** ...one anchor for all bottoms. " Of course they're going to say it's a wonder product and outclasses their competitors." Yea those Smith guys are really good at that!"I don't question the way you are going about trying to reach it." Really** ..Thank you Marin but I"m starting to. Nice of you to share that though. "My guess is that many or most of us can look at an anchor design and pretty much determine on our own if the thing is going to work well or not, and why." If I could do that I would'nt be part of this thread (or would I). I once thought that but I still can't see why my old XYZ won't set.I've had several theories but rejected them all. Still have one left (trick in the box). I sure hope Brian sticks around as he seems a very objective and open. Now he's bringing in some stuff most of us wouldn't be likely to encounter. Interesting even though one was in Swedish (I think). The Britany looks good but look at that large space between the flukes to trap stuff in. The Brake looks good. Also they seemed to think more of the Manson Supreme than I do. It hasn't failed me but I havn't anchored w it in wind either. Just dosn't seem to set hard and fast. But I've been thinking that may not actually be an indication of high performance. May just feel good. I think w the front of it's shank held down w this 12lb weight I have it will both set and hold quite well. As to the videos I think the under water ones are more valid. At any rate I still do have one anchor that has NEVER failed me and I think it came with the Willard.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:57 PM   #117
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

"No anchor is perfect for everything so the challenge is to find the best one for your own situation." I thought that's why you got the Rocna*** ...one anchor for all bottoms.
Correct.* We concluded after doing a lot of research into different anchor types that-- given the caveat that no anchor is perfect for everything--- the Rocna was more perfect for everything than any of the others.* (And I wil add that the same can probably be said for the Sarca but we hadn't heard of that anchor then and it's not available here anyway, or wasn't then).

Sand and mud are not consistent definitions.* There are lots of different kinds of sand and lots of different kinds of mud.* The same can be said for gravel, shell, rock, weedy, etc.* This vast number of variables, plus all the variables like wind, current, waves, the windage of your boat, etc., is why I say no anchor is perfect for everything.* Unless it's something totally impractical like a submerged bulldozer.

For example, from what I understand, sand bottoms with an extremely hard-packed surface are not uncommon along parts of the east coast.* The bottom itself is good holding-- the challenge is to punch through that thin, hard crust.* Anchors that hold extremely well in "sand" may do very poorly in this particular type of "sand" bottom because they lack whatever it takes to break through that hard crust.

That's why I said your testing your anchors in your waters makes more sense than relying on anchor manufacturer's statements which may be derived from tests done in bottoms that were totally unlike what you encounter even though they were technically "sand" and "mud."

And FWIW some of the videos I've seen over the last few years of rollbar anchors' behavior on the bottom were, in fact, shot underwater.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 01:59:00 PM
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:48 PM   #118
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Brian,
Thanks very much for your input here as we've been trying to sort out the elements of anchoring and anchor design for a long time. I kinda sorta disagree w Marin in that much of the time anchor design DOES seem like rocket science.
Some comments:
"The huge roll bar will be a "penetration inhibitor." Yes I agree*** ...to a point. It's drag high up so it probably pitches the fluke up to some degree. Perhaps this is one of the reasons roll bar anchors don't penetrate like others but I'm sure the roll bar does to some degree add resistance so it's sorta like having more surface area on the fluke. I wonder if one was to dig a 2' hole and bury the roll bar anchor if it would dig deeper or rise to the surface where they usually terminate their decent. Do I recall correctly that Danforth types don't bury deep either? To their stocks only? The variable fluke angle has merit but when would one find out he has anchored in mud**** ...probably in the morning while pulling anchor**** .. too late to adjust for mud. In rocks one can tell by the feel or noise that it's a Rocky bottom and deploy another type of anchor but in mud only dragging would tell the tale. Is that right? Changing anchors on a boat over 30' represents too much work for the average dude today. Many don't even go out on the bow to tend to business. But I think the testers in the test you posted said things that were way too subjective to be in article that by it's nature should be very objective. "you'd be unwise to chose one"(Fortress)"as your only anchor". This is an opinion. Not something they "found" out about something but 100% opinion. And not even a good one**** ...in my opinion. But no anchor is going to be a top dog in sales unless the anchor nests easily on the bow of a boat. In my 1953 Motor Boating magazine some larger boats had anchor davits on their bows to pull Kedges and Danforths ect. as most all anchors then were stowed on deck or through a hawse hole in the bow. That was a big selling feature of anchors then just as bow pulpit stowage is now. One can see some of that old stuff in old Chapman books. Thanks again for joining us Brian.

Marin,
Thanks. Now I understand. Soon we will be doing a lot of testing ourselves and I'm glad you brought that up about various bottoms and I agree it's very important. I think it's much more variable than I had thought. Sand. Mud. Gravel. Just a few words to describe 1000s of bottom types. In the Hemingway cruise guides they sampled the bottom in some way a lot of the time before they set out w any anchor. I'll look that up.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 02:59:15 PM
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:52 PM   #119
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Eric,

Yes, anchoring does seem to be as intricate as rocket science. So many variables can affect an anchor's performance, i.e. wind, bottom, scope....and we haven't even talked about design yet.


We use precision-machining to sharpen our parts so that the anchor will bury faster and deeper in common sea bottoms vs. heavier, dull-edged steel anchors. Kind of like a razor blade cutting into something vs. a dull knife.


Obviously, the deeper an anchor can bury + the larger the surface area = the greater the resistance to the anchor coming out of the bottom & the higher the holding power.


Without a doubt, the biggest complaint that we hear from our customers is getting the anchor back out after a serious blow. And it can be a day long problem....but the anchor accomplished what it was supposed to do.


The customer complaints sometimes get mixed in with jokes, i.e. "The anchor must have been stuck on the core of the earth" or "We pulled up dinosaur bones when that damn anchor finally broke loose" or my favorite "I had a Chinese gardener attached to my Fortress when it came up!"


Regarding the soft mud setting, I would not make the adjustment to the 45 angle unless I was absolutely certain that I was in a known soft mud bottom, i.e. Chesapeake Bay or San Francisco Bay and I needed more holding power. Otherwise, I would keep it set at the 32 angle.


I believe that one of the reasons why you do not see more Danforth types mounted on bows is because of their gangly appearance.....and not their functionality. We boaters can be vain creatures.


With their big flukes and wide stock (narrow round rod)....these Danforth types sure do not add to the trim and sleekness of many, if any boats. *It would sure be nice to hear our customers vehemently disagree with me on that comment!


Maybe they don't look so bad on the big US Coast Guard boats, as per the attachments.


Thanks!


Brian
Fortress Marine Anchors


-- Edited by Brian-Fortress on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 03:58:57 PM
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:39 PM   #120
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Posts: 5,420
Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:"The Greeks did pretty good with big rocks in a basket." In my opinion, the shapes and sizes of material it takes to dig into and hold in a bottom is based more on logic than on scientific principle.
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Couldn't agree more! We are committing "mental masturbation" on this subject and only proving that you need the "heaviest" anchor your windlass will handle.* (big rocks in a basket)* Regardless of what the bottom is, "big rocks in a basket" should hold.*
-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 04:41:27 PM
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