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Old 01-28-2011, 12:41 PM   #41
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Just lifted this from Wikipedia, so don't know how valid it is, but it does provide caution on "inferior copies", which a lot has been written about.

<h3 style="color:#000000;background-image:none;font-weight:bold;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:.3em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:.5em;padding-bottom:.17em;border-bottom-style:none;width:auto;font-size:17px;">Bruce/Claw</h3>
Bruce anchor


This claw shaped anchor was designed by Peter Bruce from the*Isle of Man in the 1970s.<sup style="line-height:1em;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;" class="reference">[3]</sup> Bruce gained its early reputation from the production of large scale commercial anchors for ships and fixed installations such as oil rigs. The Bruce and its copies, known generically as "claws", have become a popular option for smaller boaters. It was intended to address some of the problems of the only general-purpose option then available, the plough. Claw-types set quickly in most seabeds and although not an articulated design, they have the reputation of not breaking out with tide or wind changes, instead slowly turning in the bottom to align with the force.
Claw types have difficulty penetrating weedy bottoms and grass. They offer a fairly low holding power to weight ratio and generally have to be over-sized to compete with other types. On the other hand they perform relatively well with low rode scopes and set fairly reliably. They cannot be used with hawse pipes.
The design is best cast rather than fabricated, lending it to very cheap production processes which take shortcuts on the heat-treated method used originally by Bruce Anchor Co. The genuine Bruce is no longer produced, and today only inferior quality copies remain available.
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Old 01-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #42
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Thread Hijack:* this has been gone over and over again, ad-nauseum.

Anyone ever used a Barnacle anchor?*
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Old 01-28-2011, 06:27 PM   #43
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Woody,
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boat.../01anchor.html

Conrad,
That's OK*** .. We've got a lot of questionable facts and opinions but Wikipedia being an expert on anchoring is a stretch. But perhaps I shouldn't speak as I'm no expert on Wikipedia.
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:27 PM   #44
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Woody,
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boat.../01anchor.html

Conrad,
That's OK*** .. We've got a lot of questionable facts and opinions but Wikipedia being an expert on anchoring is a stretch. But perhaps I shouldn't speak as I'm no expert on Wikipedia.
My question is: have you used a barnacle anchor?

I know a bit about it since I have used one*several times.* Since this is the center of the universe of anchoring knowledge, I*figured I'd ask*about other's experiences, thus hijacking this thread.*
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:29 PM   #45
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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My question is: have you used a barnacle anchor?

No but here are the results of an anchoring test that I snagged off he web by typing in "Barnacle anchor."* The itallics in the last paragraph are in the test writeup--- I did not add them.* The people who conducted the test stated they felt the Super Max was the best of the bunch under the conditions the test duplicated

-------------------------*

16.5 pound aluminum SPADE anchor with a 6-1 scope with chain did not set and had a maximum pressure on the rode of 130 pounds.
17 pound XYZ prototype steel anchor with a 5-1 scope with all-nylon rode set with 200 pounds pressure and dragged at 400 pounds.
17 pound steel alloy DIGGER anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode did not set and had no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
21 pound aluminum FORTRESS FX37 anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
26 pound WEST MARINE Danforth steel anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain did not set and had a maximum of 200 pounds pressure on the rode while dragging.
29.5 pound steel BARNACLE anchor with a 6-1 scope and with chain had no set and no measurable pressure on the rode while dragging.
29.5 pound steel BULLWAGGA anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode had a set at 300 pounds pressure on the rode, and was dragging at 390 pounds pressure.
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
48 pound steel CQR anchor with a 6-1 scope with chain never set but dragged with a maximum pressure of 575 pounds on the rode.
46.5 pound steel BRUCE anchor with a 6-1 scope and chain never set but had a maximum pressure of 400 pounds while dragging.
52 pound steel SUPER MAX 17 Pivoting Arm anchor with a 5-1 scope and all-nylon rode set at 570 pounds and began dragging at 700 pounds pressure on the rode.


------------------------

*
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:40 PM   #46
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:The people who conducted the test stated they felt the Super Max was the best of the bunch under the conditions the test duplicated

-------------------------
Hmmm.* The folks who conducted the test you refer to are Creative Marine.* Big surprise.* They manufacture the Super Maxx anchor.* http://www.creativemarine.com/

I wonder what Ford thinks about Ford products?
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:41 PM   #47
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
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Old 01-28-2011, 10:19 PM   #48
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

One of the most popular anchor used by PNW commercial boats and large pleasure boats is the Forfjord.* I have not seen tests or comparisons with other anchors.* We have a 97 lb Forfjord, a 70 lb QCR and a 70 lb Danforth.* The Forfjord is what we been using. *I have not really put the anchor to the test yet.* Does anybody have or know about the Forfjords? *********
*

*Forfjord Anchors




-- Edited by Phil Fill on Saturday 29th of January 2011 08:19:12 AM
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Old 01-28-2011, 10:19 PM   #49
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Egregious wrote:

A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
I just snagged the test that came up.* Didn't realize it was conducted by the manufacturer of the Super Max.* No surprise, then, the results.

The typical anchor on 36 foot boats around here is 33 pounds or so.* People we know with 30, 32 foot boats use anchors in the 28-30 pound range or even less.* So a 29 pound anchor, while not the biggest thing in the world, is not an uncommon size for a smaller cruising boat.

And weight is not as important a factor in holding as design.* If weight was the most critical item, the Fortress wouldn't work.* But it consistently ranks at or near the top of the list in terms of holding in tests conducted in the bottoms this design of anchor is suited for.* The Fortress we carry as a stern anchor is sized to be the main anchor for the boat.* It weighs less than 20 pounds.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:25:39 PM
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Old 01-28-2011, 10:30 PM   #50
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:


Egregious wrote:

A 29# barnacle?* Hahaha, what they use that for?* A dinghy?*
I just snagged the test that came up.* Didn't realize it was conducted by the manufacturer of the Super Max.* No surprise, then, the results.

The typical anchor on 36 foot boats around here is 33 pounds or so.* People we know with 30, 32 foot boats use anchors in the 28-30 pound range or even less.* So a 29 pound anchor, while not the biggest thing in the world, is not an uncommon size for a smaller cruising boat.

And weight is not as important a factor in holding as design.* If weight was the most critical item, the Fortress wouldn't work.* But it consistently ranks at or near the top of the list in terms of holding in tests conducted in the bottoms this design of anchor is suited for.* The Fortress we carry as a stern anchor is sized to be the main anchor for the boat.* It weighs less than 20 pounds.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:25:39 PM
The answer to my question makes you look like a real smart guy.

*
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Old 01-28-2011, 10:35 PM   #51
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
Never heard of an aluminum Delta, just SS and galvanized steel.

*
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:28 PM   #52
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Egregious wrote:The answer to my question makes you look like a real smart guy.
Just trying to be helpful since you don't seem to know how to research stuff yourself.* I'll leave you to it.
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:43 PM   #53
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Jay N wrote:


Marin wrote:
35 pound aluminum DELTA anchor with a scope of 6-1 and with chain had a set of 400 pounds pressure and dragged thereafter. A maximum pull pressure while dragging was experienced of 900 pounds momentarily which was thought to be due to an underbottom obstruction.
Never heard of an aluminum Delta, just SS and galvanized steel.


I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*

*
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:42 AM   #54
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Woody,
http://www.practical-sailor.com/boat.../01anchor.html

Conrad,
That's OK*** .. We've got a lot of questionable facts and opinions but Wikipedia being an expert on anchoring is a stretch. But perhaps I shouldn't speak as I'm no expert on Wikipedia.
Eric, I'd agree that Wikipedia should not be viewed as the complete source on anchoring by any means, however this piece seemed to give a reasonable if brief picture of the Bruce. My main reason for posting though was the caution re Bruce knockoffs, which is consistent with what has been stated here and in other places.*

*
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Old 01-29-2011, 04:28 AM   #55
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Where do I sign up to be an "anchor Nazi"?
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:01 AM   #56
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
markpierce wrote:I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*
The Fortress is aluminum and is a very popular anchor.* I believe it's being used by the USCG on some boats.* And it always does extremely well in anchoring tests, usually being at or near the top of the bunch in holding power in sand and mud.

*
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:10 AM   #57
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
markpierce wrote:
*
I can't imagine the usefulness of an aluminum anchor.* Makes as much sense as a lead airplane.* Can anyone*save me from my ignorance?*

*

Mark

Aluminum comes in many alloys. Aluminum has a fantastic strength to weight ratio, especially when you add magnesium, manganeze, copper, iron, and others in the right quantities. How about those aluminum wheels our cars roll on? Those are made of a high silicon, magnesium alloy. Pop can tops are a different alloy than the pull tab that opens it, and a different alloy from the body of the can. Three alloys to make a can. You would not want to make an anchor from the same alloy as aluminum foil, but maybe from the pull tab alloy.


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Old 01-29-2011, 10:22 AM   #58
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin,
Yes** .. I think I'll do well w the Fortress and anytime it has setting issues I'll just get out the Manson Supreme with chain and perhaps a weighted shank.

Conrad,
My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be. In fact I don't think it would be a stretch to say there's a good chance that one or two would likely be Superior. Perhaps you need to read this again*** ..from page 1.
http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/Ancho...or%20Tests.pdf




-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:28:25 AM
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:41 AM   #59
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be.
It's my understanding that the door for Bruce-knockoffs opened when the design patent on the Bruce expired, but I could be wrong about that.* At any rate, I agree with Eric that this "no claw is as good as a genuine Bruce" thing is for the most part a marketing ploy.* Of course Bruce doesn't make small boat anchors anymore so the point is moot.

For quite awhile the Bruce rep in the PNW was Bob Hale, the publisher of the Waggoner Guide.* He told me on several occasions that the Bruce has design features that make it superior in performance to the knock-offs.* Things like the curve of the flukes, angle of the shank, and so on.* This may be true, at least in theory.

But we all know that anchoring theory and anchoring reality don't always match up.* We had a Bruce on our boat for a number of years and some of the boats near us had copies.* For the life of me I could not see any discernable difference.* True, there may have been subtle differences in fluke shape or curve or whatever.* But to the eye they looked identical.* Given the fairly crude nature of what an anchor does, I find it hard to believe that differences between a Bruce and a knockoff that are so subtle as to not even be visible actually make any difference to the anchor's performance.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:42:41 AM
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:45 AM   #60
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
nomadwilly wrote:


My door's open to Bruce "knockoffs". I don't see why we should assume the Bruce is* better than any other claw and always will be.
It's my understanding that the door for Bruce-knockoffs opened when the design patent on the Bruce expired, but I could be wrong about that.* At any rate, I agree with Eric that this "no claw is as good as a genuine Bruce" thing is for the most part a marketing ploy.* Of course Bruce doesn't make small boat anchors anymore so the point is moot.

For quite awhile the Bruce rep in the PNW was Bob Hale, the publisher of the Waggoner Guide.* He told me on several occasions that the Bruce has design features that make it superior in performance to the knock-offs.* Things like the curve of the flukes, angle of the shank, and so on.* This may be true, at least in theory.

But we all know that anchoring theory and anchoring reality don't always match up.* We had a Bruce on our boat for a number of years and some of the boats near us had copies.* For the life of me I could not see any discernable difference.* True, there may have been subtle differences in fluke shape or curve or whatever.* But to the eye they looked identical.* Given the fairly crude nature of what an anchor does, I find it hard to believe that differences between a Bruce and a knockoff that are so subtle as to not even be visible actually make any difference to the anchor's performance.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:42:41 AM
*

I think that you are correct re the Bruce patent Marin. It does make one wonder why they ceased production though; on the surface it would appear that they couldn't compete with their own design!Thanks Eric for that reminder - I had read the review before but had forgotten about the Ray. Great performance in that size range.
And perhaps Marin your comments re the performance knockoffs are bang on, although I have read anecdotal accounts of diminished performance so I'd still go back to my original comment that caution should be applied since not all knockoffs will have the same quality behind them as the Ray apparently has.
We're still looking at the Rocna although my partner (brother) is more inclined toward the Manson Supreme. One of us will win I'm sure.


*
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