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Old 02-11-2011, 07:02 PM   #221
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:

*Eleven pounds isn't going to make enough difference by itself to even be noticeable.* The design changeover, however, makes a huge difference.


I'd think a 20 to 33 percent increase in anchor weight is significant, as in moving from a 33-pound Bruce to a 44-pounder.

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Old 02-11-2011, 07:20 PM   #222
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Mark--- Pick up a ten-pound dumbbell sometime (I don't believe they make them in 11 pound weights) and tell me that that piddling amount of weight is going to make any difference in the ability of most anchor types to set and stay set. (It might help a Fortress but that anchor doesn't weigh much to start with.) It certainly makes no difference with the Bruce. I've talked to people who've experienced the same dragging problem with a 44 pound Bruce as we and others did/do with the 33 pound Bruce, and that's with boats in the same size and weight range as ours.

Add the eleven pounds AND make the overall anchor design more effective and I'll for sure buy into the fact there will be an improvement. But eleven pounds? That's nothing. Pick up that amount of weight sometime and see for yourself.
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:20 PM   #223
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:1.* If you watch the Rocna bury itself out of sight in the same video you/ve been*talking about, Mr. Taylor's theory pretty much goes out the window.

4.* No, we didn't.* Our Rocna is a whopping eleven pounds heavier than our old Bruce.* Eleven pounds isn't going to make enough difference by itself to even be noticeable.* The design changeover, however, makes a huge difference.
1. Sure, but how deep?* Any anchor will bury to a certain depth under a load and then the design becomes more of a factor. Anchor design experts know this.

2. The difference between our FX-37 and FX-55 is 11 lbs. The difference in holding power in hard sand between the two is 4,000 lbs. A 60' boat with average beam and windage has a force of 4,000 lbs on it in 42 knots of wind. Point: Weight and size make a HUGE difference.

By the way, does Rocna publish any holding power numbers for their anchors?* If not, then why not?
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:33 PM   #224
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Size makes a huge difference. Design makes a huge difference. Weight, not so much. If weight was so all-fired important, your anchor wouldn't work. But test after test shows that the Fortress holds as well as a conventional Danforth the same size but many times heavier.

The Rocna website includes the results of an independent anchor test calling out the average strains measured in pounds encountered in maximum pull, stable dragging, and maximum before releasing, if that's the sort of thing you mean.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:15 PM   #225
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

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Marin wrote:
The Rocna website includes the results of an independent anchor test calling out the average strains measured in pounds encountered in maximum pull, stable dragging, and maximum before releasing, if that's the sort of thing you mean.
No. Those numbers are for only one anchor. Do they have any holding power numbers for EACH of their anchor models?

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Old 02-11-2011, 09:39 PM   #226
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

I have no idea. If they do it's not obvious on their website. When we were shopping for a new anchor and had talked to Rocna in NZ about what size would be best and what the dimensions were so we could determine if the shank would fit under our pulpit bail, they sent us a sheet with the specs and dimensions of the Rocna 20 since that's the anchor that was best suited for our boat. There was holding power information in the specs for that particular anchor but to be honest I didn't pay a lot of attention to it since we'd already read the independent anchor tests that had been conducted to date with the Rocna. So we had a pretty good picture of how the anchor was stacking up against the other types. Whether they still have or supply this information to customers or potential customers is something you'd have to ask them about.

I will say this about the Fortress. We bought the model that was sized (by Fortress' charts) to be the main anchor for our boat. And we sized the rode the same way. The anchor sits in a simple mount on the swimstep and we keep the rode in a rectangular milk-type crate on the aft deck that my wife made a cover for. So far, we've only used it as a stern anchor. As such, I go out in the dinghy, lower it down, and "set" it by hand. It's been put to the test twice, once when the wind did a 180 and the whole boat hung off the stern anchor for a day or so with 20+ knot winds. We were on a mooring buoy so if it had dragged it wouldn't have been a big deal but nevertheless it held us in position the whole time. When we left I could not budge it by hand so we transferred the rode to a forward cleat, dropped off the mooring buoy and then recovered the Fortress with the boat and the windlass. Pretty damn good for an anchor that had originally been set by me simply pulling on the rode.

The other time was when I put it out as a stern anchor--- and set it by hand---- and it kept our raft of four boats pointed where we wanted it to be pointed despite a shifting and often very gusty wind. Had the anchor dragged and let the raft swing we would have tangled up the rodes of the two main anchors that were holding the raft. Again, excellent performance for what we needed it to do. Add to this the light weight which encourages one to use the anchor when it could be beneficial rather than avoid it because it's too heavy and awkward, and the Fortress is a terrific product as far as I'm concerned.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 11th of February 2011 10:42:16 PM
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Old 02-12-2011, 02:39 AM   #227
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Hi all, this is*Rex Francis from Anchor Right Australia. I have today had many extracts of the*recent Sarca thread sent to me, to be honest I am a little bit speechless and after sifting through it all, I*have a head ache. It is sad that a thread such as this has been bombarded with slanderous content and had*to be pulled.

I have only entered a forum such as this*once*some five years ago, simply to defend the rubbish that was being posted; unfortunately it was the same culprit then, that was part of the cause for the pulling of this Sarca thread.

Forums I stay out of, but I was emailed by one of your members to come in and*respond. If your product is any good these forums over time will either promote, or bury it, it*has to stand on its own merit. Furthermore there is no better anchor test*than*feedback from*the*boaties using*the product;*you receive*honest unbiased opinions*from one another during these discussions.

It is not for*manufacturers to come and promote their product let alone slander opposition, I am hoping after the bashing Anchor Right Australia has received the moderator will at least give me the right of reply, I promise to keep it clean. I will not be able to be*contacted via this*thread as*this will be my one and only visit, but you can email me via our website.

To all of you guys*who have put in a good word for our product, it is great to see that through the smoke screen*Sarca has*still gained the reputation it deserves, Brian from Fortress, thank you for*taking on such a*task,*your comments*have been constructive in cleaning up the rubbish I have just witnessed,*you know at the end of the day if we want to encourage new product, new ideas, then we have to eradicate such behaviour.

There is something else I*should clarify, Craigs remark regarding Jon Neeves. Jon Neeves is a free-lance journo with no affiliation with Anchor Right Australia what so ever. Jon purchased an anchor from me and I can assure you there was no discount.****

To Craig, mate your anchor works well, after all it is a copy of the Sarca, shame it turned out to be a mud bucket. So leave these forums to get on with their heated discussions for good reasons other than what we have just seen.

To the members, if you are happy with your anchor then why replace it, and yes if you are having problems holding then I have to say anchor technology moves ahead the same as any other, so choose wisely.************

To all Sarca*users, you know the myths created in relation to our trip release*to be untrue. However, if due to seeds of doubt*sown by my unsavoury competitor you are not convinced, you can simply fit a bolt through the anchor shank and lock off the trip release when anchoring overnight. During the day or anchoring around rocks you simply loosen the bolt slide it to the rear of the shank and lock it back up to redeploy the trip release, very simple.**

Regards*to all,

Rex**
Anchor Right Australia
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:31 AM   #228
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

To all, Rex is making a reference to a thread that was recently pulled from Cruisers Forum, in which Craig Smith of Rocna made libelous comments against Jon Neeves, a boating author who wrote a story in Sailing Today about anchors, which included some favorable comments about the SARCA anchor. Mr. Neeves complained to Cruisers Forum about Craig Smith's libelous comments, and they immediately pulled the thread.

This thread had been initiated by a reader who was simply trying to get information about the SARCA anchor, which is manufactured by Rex's company Anchor Right Australia, and Craig Smith of Rocna immediately in the 3rd post tried to direct that reader to the Rocna web site, which bashes the SARCA and every other type of anchor.

I believe that Rex Francis is a first class gentleman who manufactures a fine product, and I wish him well.

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Old 02-12-2011, 09:44 AM   #229
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin, thank you for your kind words and stories about the performance our product. They are very much appreciated!

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Old 02-12-2011, 02:42 PM   #230
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

<a>file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/Sailing-Today-November-2009-Anchor-Test.pdf</a>
file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/Power%20Motoryacht.pdf
file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/Yachting%20Monthly%20-Anchor%20Test%20Nov09-1%20copy.pdf
file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/Yachting%20Monthly%202006.pdf
<a>file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/Practical%20Sailor%20Large%20Anchor%20Tests-6.pdf</a>
<a>file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/MBM%20Club%20ankertest%20mei%202007-1.pdf</a>
file:///Users/erichenning/Desktop/PracticalSailor-April06.pdf

These are all the anchor tests I have bookmarked. Some you've already seen but most of you have not seen several of these. I had to learn a trick or two to do this post and I don't think I've got it right yet. Bear w me and I hope there's stuff to learn for everyone.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 12th of February 2011 03:50:06 PM
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:06 PM   #231
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

The first anchor test is written by Jon Neeves. Rex made reference to him in his post.
There are problems, bias, limitations and methods employed that don't represent the real anchoring dynamics but even though these tests are laced w much of the above a lot of usable information is presented here and many of the people involved went to a whole lot of trouble to bring this about. Lastly several of the tests are quite dated and several anchors are available now that aren't represented in these tests. I think if one reads between the lines much valuable knowledge and/or information can be realized.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:31 PM   #232
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Quote:
Rex wrote:.... if you are happy with your anchor then why replace it, and yes if you are having problems holding then I have to say anchor technology moves ahead the same as any other, so choose wisely.
After some 24 pages of discussion Rex's statement sums it all up very nicely.

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Old 02-12-2011, 06:30 PM   #233
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Eric, points well made and I can't add anything further to them. You nailed it.**

Marin, agreed. I think Rex hit the ball out of the park with that statement.

Thank you!

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Old 02-12-2011, 06:58 PM   #234
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

So Brian, if you're still monitoring this site, would you explain to me the when and why the flukes of the Fortress should be set to a different angle? I'm sure the reason is in the instructions that came with the anchor (which are up on the boat) and I'm sure it's on the Fortress website, which I'm too lazy to look up. My memory tells me the flukes should be set to go to a greater angle (relative to the shank) if the bottom is expected to be hard. But my memory has let me down before.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:14 PM   #235
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Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin,
I'm quite sure it's 45 degrees in soft mud and 32 degrees otherwise.

Did you find any anchor tests you haven't seen yet?

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 12th of February 2011 08:15:33 PM
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:18 PM   #236
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Okay, thanks. But I'm curious (from ignorance not argument) why change the fluke angle at all? If 45 degrees is an optimum fluke angle for this type of anchor in soft bottoms, why not leave it at that angle for any bottom? How does reducing the fluke angle improve the setting or holding?
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:27 PM   #237
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Hi back Marin,Yea I wondered about that a while back and here's my conclusions. 32 degrees is the optimum for harder normal bottoms but in the real soft stuff if the anchor is set at 32 degrees it dosn't have enough purchase on the bottom. The mud can easily slide around the flukes without offering much resistance or holding power. A little like water. When in dense stuff the bottom dosn't "flow" around the flukes and provides good holding. But when the flukes are set at 45 degrees it's more like a little barn door at right angles to the flow of the fluid. It all has to do w the density of the fluid. Anyway that's how I see it.
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:38 PM   #238
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Eric--- Your explanation makes sense but I still wonder why not just leave the fluke at 45 degrees for everything? If it holds good at that angle in soft mud, would it not also hold good (or better) in firmer bottoms at the same angle? It's puzzling..... Maybe Brian will come in with the answer.
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Old 02-12-2011, 10:49 PM   #239
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Marin,
I think the flukes would jack the anchor up in the air and prevent it from setting and IF it set it prolly wouldn't bury in very far. Try to imagine scooping up dirt w a trowel on fairly hard ground keeping the blade at 45 degrees from the surface. Would work much better if the blade was kept at a shallow angle. That compute?? That's my guess again.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:03 AM   #240
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RE: Rocna owners, seems you need a better anchor

Makes sense. Particularly since the Fortress doesn't have a lot of weight to press it into the bottom.
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