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Old 04-20-2016, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I have found that a chain groove in the bow roller does a much better job of orienting the anchor on retrieval that a swivel, and since you can use regular shackles, it is far less prone to failure. And I'll bet you could get a groove machined in your roller for the same cost or less than you would pay for a swivel.

The grove ensures that the chain pays out and retrieves without twisting. When properly shackled, and your anchor comes up, gravity causes it to always rotate to the right orientation. Ours comes up correctly 100% of the time.

I found a swivel to actually be as much a part of the problem with anchors coming up the wrong way as they were a solution for correcting alignment. Because they swivel, they allow the anchor to lose it's orientation, so it then comes up backwards or sideways. And I when it did come up wrong, I didn't find it any easy feat to get it straightened out. After a few uses the swivel tends to bind up with sand and mud making swiveling difficult. And when you try to rotate the anchor, the chain just wants to twist rather than the swivel swiveling. So I kinda thought they sucked.
100% correct, IMHO of course.

My roller is grooved as well as helps on alignment. When at the bow and using the foot controls, watching the anchor rotate allows the timing for the last pull to be nicely aligned to have the shank enter the groove. If all else fails to align, a nudge on the anchor with a boat hook does the trick.

Gave up on high end swivels a few years ago as the really good ones (rating and design wise) are expensive and likely the weak link in any event.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:28 AM   #22
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Peter,
I'm not a fan of Rocna but Kevin has indeed been naughty. Perhaps that's why Rex wasn't pleased when we called his SARCA a scoop. He's really into anchors scooping or not scooping up the bottom. The SARCA isn't a scoop anchor because it dos'nt scoop. And Rex makes a point of it. But I said I would'nt call it a scoop anymore.

On this twist thing I'm w twistedtree. With a username like twistedtree he should know something about it. I think he does. I don't have a chain rode so I can't check it out but w a bow roller that has a groove how can the chain not go down and up orientated the same way? Of course things happen but usually things don't happen. I suspect the chain should come up very dependably oriented the same way all the time w the groove in the roller. Tom good input - thanks.

So that seems to make this twist thing not needed. What do you think ... especially nwboater .. the OP. I still think it's clever and simple and I like it ..... but think also that it's not required.

Al,
Is that true? ROCNA-ANCHOR? Had'nt hear that. Wonder if it was intent by Rocna or some guy started it and many are say'in it? Intentional or accidental?

Kevin,
Does the Rocna really clog that bad?

George,
I'd say go less delux .... the Anchor Right product.

By the way I see the twist product in the
OP is shown w the shackle pin setup for the anchor hole.

Rossigal,
Should'nt swivel at all if you have the grooved roller and it sounds like you do.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:16 PM   #23
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All I can say is that many times I have seen advice not to use an anchor swivel. Apparently it's the weak link in the system and a likely point of failure.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I don't have a chain rode so I can't check it out but w a bow roller that has a groove how can the chain not go down and up orientated the same way? Of course things happen but usually things don't happen. I suspect the chain should come up very dependably oriented the same way all the time w the groove in the roller.

The symptom is quite common with a rope/chain combo rode. As soon as all the chain is off the roller, all bets are off.


Quote:
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All I can say is that many times I have seen advice not to use an anchor swivel. Apparently it's the weak link in the system and a likely point of failure.
I've read lots of that. When you can find first-hand reports (as opposed to Internet repeats) with accompanying factoids... many of the examples turn out to be with swivels that were invented before sliced bread, made out of crap, too small, or installed incorrectly.

Some of the newer swivels -- new designs, good materials, decent manufacturing -- are apparently stronger than the chain they might be attached to.

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Old 04-20-2016, 03:38 PM   #25
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Ranger I can't belive that didn't occur to me being so pro line over chain. Good call and I remember that applies to you.

But most here use enough chain in their combination rode that they seldom pay out any line. That's probably more prevalent on the right coast. Anchoring in 50' of water isn't unusual here. That would require 200' of chain for a 4-1 scope. That's more or less an all chain rode w a nylon tag line.

A significant advantage to anchoring deep is that you probably won't have much company. Lots of swinging room but more needed obviously. And there is little light down there so seaweed, grass and other growing things are rare. Ideal for Danforth anchors.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:50 PM   #26
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Never have that problem with my inexpensive-and very-effective Bruce-knockoff Lewmar Claw. Sure glad I didn't waste all that money on an upside-down Sarca or Rocna!!
we both tried, but no one is biting today.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:04 PM   #27
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That looks like a non cogging self righting swivel, specifically made for the Rocna anchors.

The reason that one is so poplar with Rocna owners is that since the Rocna wont set or hold, when you drag it around the anchorage it won't clog up.

Rolls
Out
Continuously
New
Anchor



And most all of you said the Rocna was the perfect anchor? Thankfully, haven't bought into that.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I don't have a chain rode so I can't check it out but w a bow roller that has a groove how can the chain not go down and up orientated the same way? Of course things happen but usually things don't happen. I suspect the chain should come up very dependably oriented the same way all the time w the groove in the roller. Tom good input - thanks.

So that seems to make this twist thing not needed.
Exactly!! Once the anchor is off the bottom, the weight of the anchor pulls the chain tight and it straightens right out, then comes up exactly as it should every time.

It's possible for the chain to skip the grove and get a 1/4 twists in it, but in my experience that only happens if you are winching it in from and extreme side angle, which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

This of course only works with an all-chain rode.

You could get a grove machined in your roller for way less than the $300 to $700 you would pay for a swivel.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:30 PM   #29
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I've read lots of that. When you can find first-hand reports (as opposed to Internet repeats) with accompanying factoids... many of the examples turn out to be with swivels that were invented before sliced bread, made out of crap, too small, or installed incorrectly.
Some people I know just lost their anchor in Port Stanley, Falkland Islands due to a swivel failure. They had just returned from South Georgia Island. Imagine if they had lost it at South Georgia where they were regularly anchoring in 40 kt winds and the is no help or assistance for 800 miles.
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:47 PM   #30
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I find that 8-ply Brait does not introduce the twist that a 3-strand twist rode would. Especially when I use 120 ft of chain and maybe only 60-80 ft of line.

I never thought much about that center groove in my rollers. Eureka!! Of course they work like that! Thanks for that new perspective, Peter!! Always learning something new...that's part of why I love boating.
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Old 04-21-2016, 01:10 AM   #31
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Or go deluxe. These things work great, as they should for the price!

ULTRA Flip Swivel – Ultra Marine West / Quickline
Yep. The only swivel I know of that is stronger than the chain. Turns the anchor perfectly every time.
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Old 04-21-2016, 08:06 AM   #32
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I can not speak to the item in the original post. I have never seen it nor seen one in operation. However, a long-term Super MAX owner who lives aboard with his spouse (authored a book on anchoring and is active on another list-serve) sent me this a few months ago about the Mantus Swivel:
"I checked their swivels out at TrawlerFest. I like them, primarily because they are stamped for their WLL when side-loaded, sized to match the chain to which they are used with- PC, BBB, or HT, or so they claim.".
He went on to share that it was one of the strongest designs in swivels that he has seen. Although he does not use a swivel (and has never had an issue to warrant one, even after weeks of anchoring) if he were to add one, he would consider this model. I trust this person's opinion. I ordered one to check it out.

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Old 04-21-2016, 08:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Yep. The only swivel I know of that is stronger than the chain. Turns the anchor perfectly every time.

For what it worth I have tried all sorts of devices and methods of ensuring a smooth reliable rotation of the anchor when it arrives at the bow and I can say that the Ultra Flip is as good as it gets in my experience.

We have a 150lb Manson Boss that was a pig for anyone to flip when it came up wrong way round especially the Admiral. Since we swallowed deeply and paid for the Ultra could not be happier.

Big advantage for us was we have little space between end of pick shank and windlass. The Ultra is compact compared to other solutions and it really works.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:25 PM   #34
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Some people I know just lost their anchor in Port Stanley, Falkland Islands due to a swivel failure.

I know it happens... but without all the details, it's hard to know whether if failed because it was a swivel in the system... or because it was undersized... or corroded... or installed incorrectly... or of a design that exacerbates effects of side-loading... etc etc etc.

I can picture lots of swivels that might have failed... for all those various reasons. And then I can picture swivels that like (IMO) would not have failed... beuase all those various reasons were addressed by design or construction or installation or technique or... etc etc etc.

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Old 04-21-2016, 07:12 PM   #35
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I'm not a fan of swivels. Too many reports of failures and lost anchors and besides, I don't see a need for one. In our case our 90lb Delta Fast Set only comes up backwards once in a while and it's not too hard to turn it. Bigger anchors that are hard to turn can often be turned by putting a loop of line over a fluke, then tie off to the oposite side and lower a bit. Not as simple as a swivel but no strength is needed and the weakest link has been eliminated.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:19 PM   #36
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For what it worth I have tried all sorts of devices and methods of ensuring a smooth reliable rotation of the anchor when it arrives at the bow and I can say that the Ultra Flip is as good as it gets in my experience.

We have a 150lb Manson Boss that was a pig for anyone to flip when it came up wrong way round especially the Admiral. Since we swallowed deeply and paid for the Ultra could not be happier.

Big advantage for us was we have little space between end of pick shank and windlass. The Ultra is compact compared to other solutions and it really works.
And, if the tests are to be believed, correctly sized the swivel is stronger than the chain, so the weakest link argument doesn't really apply.
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Old 04-22-2016, 07:27 AM   #37
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And, if the tests are to be believed, correctly sized the swivel is stronger than the chain, so the weakest link argument doesn't really apply.
This issues of being the weakest link is when the swivel is asked to handle side and lateral loads. As long as the swivel is allowed to swivel with no or minimal side/lateral loads applied, you can feel confident in the WLL of a product from a reputable company. The swivel will perform as expected. The problems typically occur when the installation allows undo side/lateral force on the swivel pin.

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Old 04-22-2016, 01:00 PM   #38
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This issues of being the weakest link is when the swivel is asked to handle side and lateral loads. As long as the swivel is allowed to swivel with no or minimal side/lateral loads applied, you can feel confident in the WLL of a product from a reputable company. The swivel will perform as expected. The problems typically occur when the installation allows undo side/lateral force on the swivel pin.

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The Ultra test results were with side load calculations, and it is still stronger than the chain whether in side load or straight pull. The ball in socket approach Ultra uses (like a couple others) creates significantly less side load than other connection methods.
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Old 04-22-2016, 11:24 PM   #39
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Another thing I like about the ultra swivel is that my anchor Manson Boss has that slot arrangement that I am not really sure about, so its design prevents the attachment point from sliding up the slot which I prefer in an area of strong tidal runs when it changes.

When you rest the chain side of the swivel on the bowroller it just smoothly allows the pick to rotate to the right side up and bingo she comes aboard.

As far as strength goes it sure appears to be a beautifully made peice of kit...priced accordingly!
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:41 PM   #40
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Another thing I like about the ultra swivel is that my anchor Manson Boss has that slot arrangement that I am not really sure about, so its design prevents the attachment point from sliding up the slot which I prefer in an area of strong tidal runs when it changes.

When you rest the chain side of the swivel on the bowroller it just smoothly allows the pick to rotate to the right side up and bingo she comes aboard.

As far as strength goes it sure appears to be a beautifully made peice of kit...priced accordingly!
Perhaps the design of the anchor determines the likelihood of the anchor coming up bass ackwards. Beats me, but my Ultra comes up crooked most of the time, with about 25% of those instances being severe enough to require leaning over the bow with a boat hook and simultaneously swinging the anchor while raising it. By myself that is a pretty tough operation. I tried adjusting the chain and every other fiddle I could think of. The Ultra swivel solved that problem. If I remember, I'll post video of it in action and maybe someone can suggest a better alternative.
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