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Old 05-13-2012, 10:32 AM   #81
Rex
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Clearing up a myth

Hi all,
Rex from Anchor Right Australia here, look fellers I don’t think I will ever convince any of you Re the design of our anchors’ that is the ones that don’t have one, Marin I don’t know why we haven’t the specialized Marine authorities over here with the level of intelligence that you perceive Re your comments of a slotted shank.

As you know all of our anchors, both designs and all sizes are S/H/H/Power certified, Marin the slotted shank was scrutinized not just by our Marine Authorities but also Lloyds, Lloyds witnessed this testing and also approved the slotted Sarca shank.

Due to the design of the Sarca anchors slot rigorous testing-- attention was given-- focused on accidentally tripping of the anchor when anchored in all weather conditions, now I’m talking over an eight month period of field testing involving marine Authorities, marine survey officers, at least three different officers from ROBERTSONS, there were boat builders, marine distributors, conservation officers and a number of Journalists witnessed much of this testing.

If there was any truth in Marins statement Re Sarcas slotted shank we would have absolutely never received certification, further if there was any chance of our slotted shank accidentally tripping the anchor don’t you think someone there would have been able to match Marins intelligence and clearly point out this incredible fault.

Marin clearly is clever with his words, (slotted shank anchors) Marin please refer to the slotted shank you are referring to and the manufacturer of that product, if you have any evidence that the Sarca will drag rearward because of its trip then please present evidence of this as we have been on the market now for 17 years, not one recorded instant of your propaganda.

Peter B, maybe you can take a shot of the rear of your Sarca and post it on the forum to observe the following, there are two large bars of steel across its rear, this weight is the pendulum that resets the trip the moment the anchor is broken free, further if you sail 180 degrees straight over the anchor this weight combined with the large reversed arrow shape fluke simply will dig in, if you try to pull the Sarca rearward the Sarca will break out not unlike any other anchor design in this situation with a few exceptions, it will stand on its hoop, as the boat drifts back it will then pull the D Shackle up the slot until it reaches its launching position roll over dropping of all weed and mud during this process and reset rapidly.

Why do you think the concave design have two holes for the D shackle ? It is a concave design totally no comparison with Sarcas trip release, after viewing the rear of the Sarca, now view the rear of the concave slotted shank anchor, the fluke plate is concave-- not convex, has no added weight to assist rest of the shackle and nowhere near the wedging or digging concept of the Sarca when pulled rearward.

Psneeld, believe me, do not confuse my comments with the design you are thinking of purchasing as it is of concave design, it will serve you well but will not respond as Peter B Sarca does in change of tide or sailing over the anchor for reasons explained. They are two very different concepts.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:31 AM   #82
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confusion with slotted shanks

Sorry about this long drawn out post, I took a look at the forum and read Psneelds last post and a shiver went up my spine as I could see he was comparing the slotted shanks of Sarca convex and the other concave slotted shank.

This is the problem when someone makes comments like slotted shanks cannot be trusted without specifying the brand, you get an argument for and against, one from someone that has never used a Sarca, and one from Peter B who has never had a problem .

Obviously Psneeld doesn’t have much take on Marins version and chooses to believe Peter B, this is fine but Psneeld is not talking Sarca and making up his mind on for and against slotted shanks argument, very dangerous situation to be lead into as Psneeld commented he would fix the D shackle permanent to the slot on the concave like you do with the Sarca shank, even the manufacturer of the concave brand recommends otherwise.

Marin I say again unless you can provide evidence that some drag their Sarca’s because of the Sarca slotted shank arrangement, then please rephrase your comments, be more specific to the brand only that you have evidence of to prevent a recurrence of what may have taken place.

Many boats,
Sorry about the Super bit but you are taking it out of context from no fault of your own, the original anchor was called Sarca, when we upgraded them for Super High holding power we simply renamed them Super Sarca for that reason only, yes I am negotiating with Joe Smith at the moment for a couple of pellet loads of mixed anchors, sizes and the two brands Excel and Super Sarca, I will update you on the situation when I hear more.

Thanks for your comments on the video, what you see is what you get, please understand all anchor testing for Super High holding power was done under water, it was much easier to compare them where clear vision was a must when doing a demonstration such as ours, can you imagine trying to pull three anchors under water with the boom.

No one anchor had any favors they were all pulled in the same conditions and yes under water all of them will work considerably better, every anchor design does.

You can do as you wish with the video, copy it or pass it on but by all means if you have any questions please ask, remember this, there is no such thing as the perfect anchor.

One other point, the West Marine test was done with the original Sarca anchor, not the Super Sarca, the Super Sarca is far removed from its original design and up to date has produced marginal holding power loads well in excess of our competitors, well at least the ones on our holding power test cert comparison by
ROBERTSONS.

Regards Rex.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:43 AM   #83
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WOW.....much to read this morning, to dissect and understand. This is clearly the best anchor discussion we've ever had. But it's hard to understand the many words of many posters. Now I'm going to add to that problem.

Rex, I can see how you can stand proudly behind your anchor when such high and mighty in the cloud people have blessed it's presentation of performance's.
But I'm w my fellows here I think in that if the pull of an anchor rode changes to about 120 or 140 degrees from where it was set how could it NOT break the anchor out? The shank being buried deep enough that the shackle would need to slide through the bottom and that resistance would prevent it? Or does the shackle jam and prevent shackle movement. Even if both happened I would think when one came close to 180 degrees the shackle would move up the shank and trip a properly set anchor. I watched your incredible DVD and was amazed at how quickly and positively your Super Sarca set so many times in the video. I was under the assumption that the slot was justified by the ability for the Sarca to reset. I just do'nt see how the slotted anchors would not upset themselves on a pull reversal. If the drag went around as in your video the slotted anchor would perform as a non-slotted anchor but on a reversal?

I would think any anchor would break out with a 180 degree reversal of pull. And most anchors will reset. But w an anchor that is not perfect (all as you pointed out) resetting is not a sure thing as Marin has pointed out. I think we are thinking as the bulk of anchor buyers would think. As soon as they thought of the 180 reversal they'd say nix on that one. Convincing engineers and certifiers is one thing but convincing buyers is much more important to you Rex and I want you to succeed here. I think it says somewhere in our book by Chapman (in some year) that slotted anchors are not to be trusted for overnight mooring. I think most people will view the slot as questionable and buy another anchor. I also think Manson could/would sell many more anchors w/o the slot.

Excluding the anti-snag feature of the slot will the Super Sarca perform the same way without the slot? People will view the slot as a gimmick and will shy away from it. On the other hand if you drop the slot people will think maybe there are other features of the anchor that are questionable too. And marketing two different anchors would be more expensive but It's my opinion that you should. Try to view this as feedback rather than me trying to tell you how to run your business. I personally want your anchor but think there's only about a 25% chance I'll use the slot.
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Old 05-13-2012, 01:31 PM   #84
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Hi Many boats. No mate I could not really care what customers say about our product but it is frustrating when someone has an agenda and has absolutely no understanding of our concept, the only way you or anyone is going to find the benefits of our product is to use it then make a report not an assumption.

Yes I know it makes interesting reading and brings about a barrage of comments, one should understand we have been in testing and developing anchors now for at least twenty years and yes we are extremely passionate but not blinded.

The testing you see in the video is a required length of Rhode requested by the National Marine Safety Committee at no less than eight to one, this is to allow all anchor designs we tested against to reach their full holding power potential, meaning if when we do holding power tests some anchors would not produce their full potential in holding power on a shorter scope, they are the N.M.S.C . and Lloyds rules for S/H/H/Power testing procedure under a new section not long come in under section 7 for commercial vessels testing chains anchors and ropes.

If the Sarca is well set or only half buried it will follow your boat around in most situations with changing in tides and winds, the amazing thing with the Sarca this movement will continue to bury it deeper depending on how much anchor Rhode you have out and the type of substrate you are anchored in, I can explain this in more detail but its two am in the morning and I am losing interest.

Rarely will the D shackle be pulled sideways to the rear of the slot in most situations, testing has proved regardless if shackle finds its way to the rear of the anchor will stay set and still screw around without breaking free, if in the unlikely situation should you sail directly over the Sarca it is not common for the chain to create full load central to the shank as the chain is normally pulled from its last load position which is normally of side to a central pull, again the Sarca will screw around and reline depending on how much force is applied and how deep it is buried.

Even sailing over the anchor with a direct central to the shank pull will not unset the anchor if it is well buried, it will depend on the load force applied to break it out, I say break, as it is not tripped out, it will not drag rearward as explained earlier, worst scenario if does break out in a reversal pull it will roll over sheading all mud, weed and slam in again with in the distance of its fluke.

Eric if you take a look at the letter I received on our web site from a guy with a 40 foot yacht that was caught in the path of the unforgettable Tsunami that hit Phuket, their were three boats that survived that and all had Sarca anchors, should read their story as it is testament in the real world of our products performance, the other boats were either washed out to see or smashed into the rocks.

No Eric the anchor does not need the slot to perform, Yes and you can simply slide the lock bolt up to the shackle and lock of the rail if you have no need for the trip release, I can see you haven’t got your head around the concept of the Sarca and I am not sure I understand some of your meaning but any way I will give it some thought and come back.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:09 PM   #85
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One of the bad habits of a Bruce--- at least a smaller Bruce in the 33-44 pound range-- is it's "hopping" tendency. We saw this in several videos way back when we were shopping for a Bruce replacement. The anchor sets, the pull is increased, and the anchor comes out. But rather than resetting and holding it starts to "hop"--- partially resetting, then coming out sliding across the bottom a short distance, then partially resetting, coming out and sliding across the bottom, and so on. This is under a fairly high load. This was just one factor in our final determination that, while a Bruce sets quickly and reliably it just can't be trusted under higher loads. At least not at the sizes carried on boats our size. Not to say it will always drag. Ours stayed put much more often than it dragged. But after a few holding failures, a couple of them serious, and combined with similar experiences we heard from other boaters, it was obvious to us that the anchor is not trustworthy and it had to go.

At last count about four or five boats around us in our marina have acquired Rocnas within the last five years. These boats range from a 50' Nordhavn to a 40-something foot sloop In each case, from chatting with the owner when I happened to see him, the Rocna replaced a Bruce and did so for exactly the same reasons we replaced ours.
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:41 PM   #86
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psneeld,
Are you saying a well set anchor in a good bottom will not break out even under ultra high tension? The XYZ man says that but I know of no other. Drago of XYZ says the 5/16ths chain will break first. He wanted me to find a big fishing boat and try to pull the XYZ out. Thought that was too much to ask so never did. I thought it was common knowledge that if you pulled on an anchor enough it would break out. No anchor test that I have ever read has broken their rode pulling on an anchor. Some have documented a 5000lb pull. XYZ says the've done 9000.

I'm still trying to get my head around the Sarca slot and it's looking better but I still think it would pull out on a reversal but then any anchor would so it's hard to lay it out as a criticism or fault. I guess if I was 100% OK w the slot that would save a lot of trouble setting trip lines. Nice thought.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:58 PM   #87
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Who sells the Sarka in the US?
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Old 05-13-2012, 07:06 PM   #88
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f
I thought it was common knowledge that if you pulled on an anchor enough it would break out.
Eric--- I suspect that it all depends on the size of the anchor, the depth of the set, the strength of the rode, and so on. But I agree with you---- I cannot conceive of an anchor the size most of carry on our 30-50 foot boats not breaking out of a "normal" bottom before the rode broke, particularly an all-chain rode. Perhaps if the anchor was caught on a rock or something this could happen. Or if you could take a backhoe down and dig a deep hole, drop the anchor in it and then cover it up again. But under normal circumstances I find it almost impossible to believe that an anchor of the types most of have would stay put in a sand, mud, etc. bottom under a pull strong enough to break the rode. Unless the rode was way undersized or defective.

Anyway, no matter what the anchor did I suspect that on most boats the hardware securing the rode to the boat would break before rode did. The exception perhaps being a proper Samson post that went all the way down to the keel.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:04 PM   #89
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Marin,
Look on the XYZ web site under testing or how we tested.
xyzanchor.com

psneeld,
On the Sarca DVD during one of the bar pull tests a Danforth broke out while setting and immediately reset. It's hard to tell because the camera is "looking" at the bar a lot of the time but I think that's what happened.
There is the stratified bottoms too. What if there was 4" of soft sand and hard packed clay under. Any anchor I can think of would drag on that. Time after time I'm think'in the comment about the bottom being the biggest variable in anchoring is the biggest break though In anchoring. To me anyway.

jeffnick,
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:15 PM   #90
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the last page has given me a headache...rex seemed to think I was making a bunch of assumptions based on what I'm not sure...well I'm not gonna waste my time....

and others need to read a lot more closely...I haven't taken any firm stand one way or another ....but if a video showed a danforth..set well... breaking out and not digging in deeper or stopped because the force wasn't great enough..well I say bullcrap unless the whole bottom gave way in such a way NO anchor would hold. Been there...done that...have enough practical and engineering background to know better...and most anchor tests back that up..

There's some good stuff here...but I'm out of it now with all the finger pointing...most that do it should turn it right around...
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:32 AM   #91
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You are kidding about the Danforth statement....I hope...otherwise I'm not sure how you think anchors work.

I try very hard and give credit to people in these forums till they come out with stuff that's OFF THE MAP about things....The danforth will dig till the pull is overcome by resistance or the flukes break off. That's why they blow all other anchors off the scale for holding in similat situations...the problem is they are finicky...but a set one will never fail in a straight line pull unless IT breaks or the bottom breaks free (assuming the scope doesn't exceed it's design angle but that's true of all anchors except cement blocks)
No, not kidding...I've owned and used Danforths all the time I had a yacht (sail boat), and I often dived on the anchor, and usually found the flukes buried, but the long horizontal bar the flukes rotate on at the end furthest from the shank, seemed to stick out beyond the flukes edges and stop it digging any further. Of course it might have been we never subjected it to enough force to pull it under, so if you can assure me the whole fluke end goes in under the bottom in a good pull, I'm happy to accept that and stand corrected. They certainly set well usually, except when they pick up a can on the bottom, as mine did twice.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:01 AM   #92
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With reference to the slot and its functioning, and thanks for clarifying a few of the technical aspects of the testing there Rex, but in all fairness, Marin has only had contact with and recounted stories from those who maintain their Manson Supreme tripped themselves and dragged, never a Sarca. More experience with Sarcas, as they are now going to soon become available over there, will be the clincher I feel. As Rex said - personal use and experience beats everything else when it comes to convincing oneself of how reliably they work. Once you have, you are sold, and then you can see how you can dispense with floats and trip-lines forever, without sacrificing that peace of mind. It's the old story once again of the "proof of the pudding", really...
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:53 PM   #93
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That horizontal bar that sticks out is the "stock". At one time there were mostly anchors w stocks like the Kedge and Herrishoff (frequently refereed to as Yachtsman's anchors) and CQR, Dreadnought, Forfjord's and others as "stockless anchors". As far as I know now there is only one anchor w a stock....Danforth. In soft stuff the stock would get buried as well and get into the act of increasing resistance. My Danforth has always set and held well.

Re the slot. When the rode gets sideways and worse the Supreme may handle the situation somewhat or considerably different than other slotted anchors. As for Marin's friends on his "dock" raving about the Rocna I think it's only a matter of time until they start telling stories about dragging. If you use ANY anchor long enough it will drag. The bottom seems to be the weakest link in anchor performance. And psneeld I think the only reason a Danforth could break out like was discussed is because of bottom irregularities.......the weakest link.

Now that I've seen the Anchor Right DVD on the Super Sarca and Sarca Ex-cel I'm ready to pass it along. Send me your mailing address and I'll send the DVD.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:19 PM   #94
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As for Marin's friends on his "dock" raving about the Rocna I think it's only a matter of time until they start telling stories about dragging. If you use ANY anchor long enough it will drag.
They aren't all on my dock, they are in my marina. And you could be right. But when we were searching for a Bruce replacement we read a ton of user testimonials about all sorts of anchors that were available then (seven years or so ago). The Rocna and the Bugel had by far the most positive user testimonials, almost all of which were from boaters who had been using other types of anchors (Bruce, CQR, etc.) and had experienced problems. Since switching to the rollbar anchors, they wrote, their anchoring problems ceased.

One of the most convincing was from the owner of a large charter company in the Mediterranean. His customers were constantly having problems with the "conventional" anchors on his large fleet of boats. Some of them had resulted in some pretty substantial damage and insurance claims. Then he said a friend told him about the Bugel. So he investigated the anchor, liked what he saw, and installed some on some of his fleet. According to what he wrote, his customers' anchoring problems with those boats stopped. So he outfitted his entire fleet with Bugels and he said that anchoring became a non-issue from that point forward. He claimed it was the best single investment he had ever made to improve his fleet.

So that's what rollbar anchor users have been saying for quite awhile. I don't disagree with you that any anchor can drag under the right (or wrong) circumstances. But the user evidence seems to indicate that the rollbar anchors are less prone to it in a variety of circumstances all over the world than the so-called "conventional" anchors.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:30 AM   #95
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Which model do you use?
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:38 AM   #96
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sucking it up

To all,
I entered this forum a couple of nights ago around one am, after reading back through my post’s I really feel some embarrassment from the way in which I tried to get some points across, Marin I sincerely apologize for insulting you and to anyone else my comments may have offended.

Though my concerns were genuine Re distinction of brand names with slotted shanks I could have handled it a lot better, make no mistake, if you apply the D shackle directly to the slotted rail on any other brand than Sarca you are more than likely GOING TO FIND OUT THE DIFFERENCE THE HARD WAY, I say again, even the manufacturers of the other brands recommends the d Shackle to be fixed to the separate captive hole when anchor ring overnight.

I have been explaining the concept of the Sarca now for seventeen years, answering the same questions, documenting its now proven performance on boats ranging from fizz boats to 300 ton trawlers, certification, videos that will all ways create controversy but the public demand them regardless, still explaining, I suppose eventually the old hide starts to where thin, who would want to design bloody anchors, no I am not complaining just have to get the mind back on track.

Yes I made an assumption and for that reason have apologized to pseeld , I can remember after being married for approx. six years with a couple of children I had an occasion where I thought I had to remind the missus of what our wedding vows meant, yes I am afraid she very quickly made me realize I was assuming.

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Old 05-15-2012, 02:54 AM   #97
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av8r--- We have a Rocna 20 (44 pounds). Ours was fabricated by Mark Pocock's Suncoast Marine in Vancouver, BC back when they first started making Rocna's for the North American market. We bought it from Mark on the recommendation of Rocna in New Zealand who told me that the shipping costs on an anchor of this weight from NZ was really high and that Mark had started making the Rocna for them in Vancouver and in fact was using some manufacturing techniques that were more advanced at the time that Rocna was using in NZ. So instead of spending a bazillion dollars shipping a Rocna 20 up from NZ we drove up to Vancouver one Saturday and simply picked it up from Mark. And US customs--- apparently not realizing how much anchors can cost-- had no interest in charging us duty even though we told them that's what we'd driven up to Vancouver to buy and there it is in the back of the Range Rover. The agent glanced at it and sent us on our way.

Rex--- All the user reports my wife and I have read over the years about the rode shackle sliding down the slot and backing the anchor out when the boat got more than 90 degrees off to the side of the shank, and the videos we've seen showing this, were about the Manson. The Sarca was not, and I guess is still not, an anchor marketed and sold in North America.

Based on what I've read and seen, I don't trust the slot on any anchor due to my previously stated philosophy of "anything that can happen eventually will happen." The other problem is that accommodating the slot makes the shank too tall to fit under the pulpit bails on many boats, including ours. But FWIW and from what I can recall, the anchors that people were complaining about in what we've read were Mansons, not Sarcas.
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:49 AM   #98
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Point taken

Hi Marin,
I except your point, unusual for me to defend an opposition company but in all fairness to Manson when those videos surfaced showing the Manson being backed out there was a marketing campaign going on by a certain company whilst in their plight to gain market share, all and any manufacturer was fair game and firmly in their sight, I for one was on the receiving end and forced to defend ourselves, if you know the source from whom the video came from is credible then fine, if not then I would be asking the question.

The ruthless marketing campaign that was going on is a direct result as to why there is a comparison of that companies anchor on our DVD, the Manson Supreme is on their simply because it was Lloyds approved and was designated by the N.M.S.C. National Marine Safety Committee for us to test against to gauge performance of our anchor designs for S/H/H/Power certification.

Have we tested the Manson so called trip release backing out problem, well of course, our trip release had to prove it was reliable and whether or not we had to have a separate hole same as the Manson, our design was approved without it, what were the findings on the Manson trip release, that is not for me to comment.

I have decided, don’t ask me why I haven’t done this before, maybe because I know how the slot works it never seemed to me a big deal, I will video over the next couple of months the program that was set out by thy testing authority ROBERTSONS, their rigorous anti trip procedure, you may still not believe what you see but it will certainly open your eyes as to how it works and why we stand by what we say, further if not convinced the trip slot can simply be cancelled out with its lock bolt.

Just maybe I won’t have to explain this method again. I should also add does this mean you will never lose your Sarca, by no means, the trip release simply gives you the best chance of retrieving, like all other aspects of anchoring much of it is compromise plagued and controlled by variables many times, I also believe 75 percent of these variables are controlled by little knowledge of simply understanding the fundamentals of how to anchor a boat and correct anchor size.

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Old 05-15-2012, 05:04 AM   #99
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Rex--- Just curious but have you ever considered making a version of the Sarca but without the slot? This would eliminate, at least in people's minds if not in reality, the element of risk posed by a slotted anchor shank and also eliminate the too-tall shank on the slotted Sarca. Leave everything else exactly the same, just exchange the tall, slotted shank for a more normally dimensioned solid shank in the otherwise unchanged manufacturing process.

I don't know much about manufacturing but it would seem to me that on something as simple and basic as the kind of casting-cutting-forging-welding job fabricating an anchor appears to be that making a slotless version of the Sarca with a more standard height shank would open up a potential market that would more than cover what I would guess would be the fairly low cost of providing the optional shank.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:39 AM   #100
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tall shanks

Marin I see your point, but you know the original concave Sarca anchor had a solid shank, when we invented this anchor we wanted something that could be used as a multipurpose anchor, by simply playing around with the idea of an automatic reset trip release ,we were quite amazed when we discovered after much development that we could incorporate this feature and actually bring it to life.

Now from a yachters point of view it wasn’t such a big deal but our research was telling us that the trailer boat industry and the commercial industry, large vessels believed if we were successful it would be a god send to them, simply the large commercial vessels were snapping of their CQR designs every other month when anchored in lime stone of which there is plenty of here in Australia.

The trailer boat industry literally fell in love with them as they were now deploying one anchor for all of their needs, fisherman that is, the tall shank as you describe it really never became an issue, most of them simply tig welding a U shape bar over the top of their original bow roller, and that has gone on since that time to the point where many yachts now fit the Sarca as well.

Unfortunately what was realized is that the hoop was the biggest drawback, not the tall shank as you call it, any boat with a pull pit rather than the STD front roller assembly simply would not accept the hoop arrangement, the pull pit arrangement that is now becoming far more common and creating a demand for a more generic style anchor with new generation performance, we were quick to recognized this.

So how does one develop a more generic style anchor, well by this time we had developed the incredible T.AT.S. Rig the tidal anchor test skid of which I might add is now accepted here in Australia as a new and more accurate method for testing anchors for S/H/H/Power certification, quantifiable and reproducible results without the many variables created when testing with a Tug.

So with the aid of T.A.T.S. we developed the incredible Excel Range, without going into it the Excel is literally gaining traction and keeping us under pressure with its fast growing popularity, again it is a S/H/H/Power anchor certified tried and now proven, yesterday we sent a 40 KG to France, freight cost more than the anchor but who’s complaining, so really we do have something to offer the market whether the shank is to tall or the hoop won’t fit the Excel will suffice.

Something that should be noted, when marketing our products throughout the industry we never see the scrutinizing from any part of market like we do when our products are discussed in forums such as yours , I don’t see this is a bad thing but a lot of hard work to convince you guys.

Regards.
Rex.
CEO of Anchor Right Australia.
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