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Old 05-12-2012, 03:40 PM   #61
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Eric,

We are still at the damn dock in La Conner. Still doing boat work and provisioning. Our weather here got real good. Full sun and temps in the uppper 60's.

I just got my teak rails redone with Cetol Natural Teak. Today the last coat of gloss goes on. Shiny! Also had the prop shaft and rudder shaft repacked.
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:14 PM   #62
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I saw Rocna's (R) and Manson Supreme's dragging along the surface refusing to even start to set in Rex's DVD. It confirms to me that the anchoring element brought up recently that the bottom is the greatest variable in anchoring. I suspect Marin found a bottom that perhaps no anchor would perform in. There may be such a place near Bellingham as he has repeatedly mentioned that others on his float have had the same experience but he has not repeated the dragging or breaking out since he switched to the Rocna. So it's not far fetched to think there may be a bottom they all go to that is bad for the Claw and OK for the Rocna. Gives us someth'in to talk about though.

The Sarca in the dvd while in the veering test was about 2" above the surface clearly set and not far from being buried. It showed no sign of breaking out and did'nt seem to roll at all either.

Rex says that R and MS copied the Sarca.....but Rocna Smith has another story.

Numerous tests were made w a PU truck at fairly high speeds......faster than most anyone would go to set an anchor. Interestingly all the anchors seemed to sort-of hop almost out and then go right back down again. If I was Rex I'd get a truck w a much lower gear.

In 1 on 1 tests w the MS and the Sarca the Supreme the Supreme was inconsistant.......once dragging and once setting as the Sarca except that the Sarca promptly flipped right side up while the MS slowly rolled over and slowly dug in on it's side.

There is footage of a Delta dragging on it's side and never showing any tendency to set at all.

Using a tow bar w the R & MS on one side and the Sarca Ex-cel on the the Sarca out pulled them both.

I think this is a see'in is believing thing and Rex dos'nt seem like someone that would rig the test but I'm sure the footage showing his product performing best was chosen but that's to be expected. I think most any of us would do that and I was very impressed w what I saw. Some of the footage would have been better w a double image showing the tow bar (to judge tension) and the anchors in the act. I was most impressed w the Super Sarca's ability to set without any trace of hesitation. And in the West Marine anchor test they gave the Sarca good marks for short scope performance.

When I get down south I'm either going to get a Sea Dog Claw or (if I can find a place to buy one) a Super Sarca. Even though I tend not to trust things called "super".
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:21 PM   #63
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Numerous tests were made w a PU truck at fairly high speeds......faster than most anyone would go to set an anchor. Interestingly all the anchors seemed to sort-of hop almost out and then go right back down again. If I was Rex I'd get a truck w a much lower gear.
My former GMC 1-ton pickup truck had a non-synchronized "granny" gear where the max speed capable was around 10 mph so was very capable of a slow crawl.
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:51 PM   #64
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Marin,

When you refer to dragging, do you mean that after getting a set, the anchor then drags, or that the anchor never gets a set? To me, dragging is what happens after getting a set, later, like when the wind comes up.
Our Bruce always set quickly. Never had a problem with it setting or holding in light winds. The problems we and a lot of other people I know or have talked to occured when the wind kicked up. Even at a 7 or 8 to 1 scope the anchor is phone to dragging under load. Which is not surprising as it has always been rated at one near the bottom in terms of holding power. I have met so many people in the last 13 years who've had holding problems with their Bruce anchors-- of all sizes, not just the smaller ones---that I've become convinced it's a poor design for a smaller anchor. So we gave up on it.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:19 PM   #65
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I learned early on that a Bruce has to be larger than the Bruce sizing table would recommend. On my 31 ft 8,000lb trimaran I had a 33lb, my 22ft C-Dory carried a 17.5lb, and my 37 trawler had a 44lb, all genuine Bruce. I think the advantage in a Bruce is the rapid set in various, possibly unknown bottoms. As you say, the drawback is lower rated holding power. The only compensation is to go larger.

For me, the killer was the ability of a Bruce to pick up a large rock. After two rocks, I said enough.

Has anyone picked up a rock with the Rocna, Scarna, or Manson anchors?
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:23 PM   #66
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I learned early on that a Bruce has to be larger than the Bruce sizing table would recommend. On my 31 ft 8,000lb trimaran I had a 33lb, my 22ft C-Dory carried a 17.5lb, and my 37 trawler had a 44lb, all genuine Bruce. I think the advantage in a Bruce is the rapid set in various, possibly unknown bottoms. As you say, the drawback is lower rated holding power. The only compensation is to go larger.

For me, the killer was the ability of a Bruce to pick up a large rock. After two rocks, I said enough.

Has anyone picked up a rock with the Rocna, Scarna, or Manson anchors?
all anchors will pick up a rock...chunk of clay...wad of mud...no anchor is immune..hopefully you have an electronic anchor watch so you're not the SOB that stays up all night to see if you anchor is now useless till cleared..
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #67
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psneeld,
How are you going to pick up a rock w a Delta, Forfjord, CQR, XYZ or Spade?

Larry and Marin,
I've been looking at all the different Claws and am seeing very noticeable differences one to the next. At this point the Sea Dog Claw looks like it has sharper and longer flukes. Larry I think you anchored so many times you should expect to pic up a rock every few years or so .....don'cha think? I'd find that acceptable.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #68
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psneeld,
How are you going to pick up a rock w a Delta, Forfjord, CQR, XYZ or Spade?

Larry and Marin,
I've been looking at all the different Claws and am seeing very noticeable differences one to the next. At this point the Sea Dog Claw looks like it has sharper and longer flukes. Larry I think you anchored so many times you should expect to pic up a rock every few years or so .....don'cha think? I'd find that acceptable.
I gave you more choices than a rock....

Sometimes.......
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:32 PM   #69
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Touring K dock, I've noted more than a few larger boats (20 percent longer and up to 100 percent greater windage) with 15-kilogram or 35-pound Bruces/claws on their bows. Meanwhile, I'm "under-anchored" with a (still unfailing) 15-kilogram Bruce knock-off. Perhaps thanks to the thick, sticky-muddy bottoms here.

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Old 05-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #70
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Larry I think you anchored so many times you should expect to pic up a rock every few years or so .....don'cha think? I'd find that acceptable.
If the rock is picked up when setting, then you many not really be set. Being anchored with a rock is not good if the wind comes up!

The last rock wedged in between the outer fluke and the shank. It was huge. I could not raise it out of the water and had to slowly motor to a dock. Good thing there was a dock.

It took two men and a large 8 ft pry bar to dislodge the rock. It also took both of us roll it over the side of the dock into 30 ft of water!

If this had happened in a remote area with no docks, the only solution I have come up with would be to beach the boat and possibly abandon the anchor. I guess I could have also created my own mooring! LOL

Anyway, that was it for Mr. Bruce being my primary anchor. I still carry ole Bruce in the lazarette as a spare.

I might get one of these newfangled spade anchors after you guys get the beta testing done! LOL
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:21 PM   #71
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It took two men and a large 8 ft pry bar to dislodge the rock. It also took both of us roll it over the side of the dock into 30 ft of water!
I've got a hammer, I'll hammer in the evening, I'll hammer in the morning, All over ...
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:59 PM   #72
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OK so the rock was such a mega experience it made you mad. I see you're mak'in ole Bruce stand in the corner.

What's this Spade talk? I thought you bought a Delta. Do you know anybody in the PNW that has a steel Spade? I knew somebody close to here that had a Spade on a big sailboat......he liked it. If the Spade has a weak link I'll bet it's setting so if somebody has a lot of time w a Spade and it has set dependably I do'nt see how you could go wrong. Well.....you could loose a few extra bucks.

psneeld wrote:
"I gave you more choices than a rock...." Indeed you did. I was hung up on Larry's rock.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:40 PM   #73
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I think this 'dragging after setting' issue is an important one, because it explains why concave (as opposed to convex) fluked anchors will indeed dig a trench, compared to the lesser bottom damage done by a more plough-shaped anchor, but we are really talking hypotheticals here, as we all spend a lot of effort to never anchor where we will be exposed to the sort of conditions where a set anchor drags anyway, and 99.9 times out 100 we are successful. So the concave anchors, which work well, just tend to bring up more mud from one place and leave a bigger hole, that's all. Not really a major issue in all but the most 'environmentally delicate' bottoms.
The really important bit is the faster way the new roll-bar anchors set, and in that they are comparable.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:53 PM   #74
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Has anyone picked up a rock with the Rocna, Sarca, or Manson anchors?
Larry, I have to admit, one time my Sarca did pick up a rock, and I still marvel at how it did. The bottom was quite firm, and we were off a small island at the time, stopping for a quick hot drink. I noticed immediately we were moving under conditions where it just should not happen, even on a short, coffee break type scope. So I hauled her up, noticing the winch working that bit harder on the way up, so stopped it just clear of the water, not knowing what it might bring aboard, and there was a football-sized rock, balancing - literally - on the middle crest of the fluke, which is convex remember, to it was like sitting a round ball on the peak of a gable roof, and a light kick with the foot was all it took to dislodge. It must have had just enough friction leaning back against the part of the shank that comes up from the fluke to hold it there. It was no drama, because it affected performance so grossly one would notice it straight away and investigate before trusting the set, but, yes...it can happen.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:07 AM   #75
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I du'no Peter ......the fastest setting anchor I've had was a Danforth. And the slowest setting anchor I've had is the Supreme. And that guy that designed the Spade proved that the most efficient shape to resist movement is concave. I will submit that the highest holding power anchors have made sacrifices in other important performance elements. Kinda like driv'in a dragster to work.
Or perhaps driving a Fararai would be better .....or perhaps getting up a bit early and driving a Rolls. Or if you're almost broke a small old car would be best. If I had a super high holding power anchor I'd prolly want to trade off some of that super performance for some other nice well mannered features.

I think your anchor does everything well and one cannot really do better than that eh? What anchors have absolutely no weak links or faults. Those are the anchors to buy .....I think.
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Old 05-13-2012, 01:01 AM   #76
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Eric, When I mentioned a spade anchor, I was thinking of a roll bar type. I now see that there is an actual 'Spade' anchor.

I did buy a Delta, but its used, and wasn't that expensive. I am still in the 'wait and let the other guy test the new stuff' mode. I might get a new style hook when they start being in the used stores. So far the Delta is doing a good job. I'll know more after this summer.

The last coat of 'shiny' went on my handrails today. Another job done, and a little closer to leaving for the summer.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:20 AM   #77
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I suspect Marin found a bottom that perhaps no anchor would perform in.
Our Bruce dragged in a variety of bottoms under higher loads. Mud, sand, weedy mud. The people I have met that had dragging problems with the Bruce said the same thing. It's simply a poor design for holding power under pressure, at least in the smaller sizes. Get up to 100 pounds or more and it might be better in this regard. But we're not going to carry a 100-plus pound anchor on our boat even if it would fit the pulpit. So in my book the Bruce is not a reliable anchor for boats our size in terms of holding. And if it can't be counted on to hold when the wind comes up it doesn't matter how reliably it sets.

I'm not interested in theory or what someone thinks an anchor will do based on what its design looks like. I am only interested in real-life performance that we experience with our boat. The Bruce fell well short of our requirements so it had to go and it did. So far the Rocna has performed as advertised, even to the point of holding two boats under conditions in which our old Bruce most likely would have dragged trying to hold just us.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:49 AM   #78
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Touring K dock, I've noted more than a few larger boats (20 percent longer and up to 100 percent greater windage) with 15-kilogram or 35-pound Bruces/claws on their bows. Meanwhile, I'm "under-anchored" with a (still unfailing) 15-kilogram Bruce knock-off. Perhaps thanks to the thick, sticky-muddy bottoms here.
I'm with you, Mark. The Bruce comes highly recommended by several boating instructors in the CA Delta area with many thousands more hours of experience than many of us. My Bruce lookalike has never failed me, even in a 35 kt blow. Do I wish I had upsized for even more confidence? Yes, so I added 90 feet of chain to compensate. I anchor dozens of times a year and have NEVER had a problem.
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:04 AM   #79
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I've thought quite a bit about this dragging thing. I think the thing about dragging, after the anchor has set, say in unexpected blow conditions, is the way it drags rather than whether it does or does not, as all have their holding limit. Some, like the Bruce, and maybe the Danforth I suspect, will drag along still set for a bit, but then because the shape does not favour it digging in further, will pop out, bounce along a bit, then attempt to set again, and may - or may not - depending on the forces involved and the speed of the drag, and the bottom type. Others, like the Rocna, Manson, Spade, XYZ, etc, will tend to dig in further and just drag through the bottom for a bit, but in the end will scoop up and hold so much bottom they either prevail and stay set and stop moving, or they pop out. After which their ability to rid themselves of the accumulated bottom and re-set again will decide what happens next. Some, like the Rocna and maybe the Manson Supreme are better at this than others, because the roll bar keeps their tips downward pointing which is a must for quick re-set. The third kind of drag is what you might call 'controlled' drag, and is what a well set plow shaped anchor does, (and in that sense the Sarca fits in there also), the operative word being well set. If well set, if the hold is overcome, instead of popping out, the anchor stays buried because the shape of the fluke, like a plow, keeps it headed south as it were, and by it's shape it can shed accumulated bottom substrate, and move. It will drag a few feet of so, then often hold again, so the boat may move a short distance, but is not dragging in an uncontrolled way.
Some have called this 'streamlined in the direction of the pull', and do not favour it because it seems counter-intuitive to provide less resistance in the direction of pull - fair enough. However, I think of it as shaped to not only shed bottom coming up, but when buried, to provide a high amount of resistance, but if this is overcome, then the shape, as it moves forward, tends to drive it further down, rather than fill with bottom it can't dispose of, whereas concave fluke types either 'win the tug-o-war' or have to come up to spit the dummy (bottom), and try again.

Of course, all anchors will have an absolute limit. It's when that occurs, and what happens then that gets exciting. It still clearly pays to not expose your boat to that extreme if at all possible - and we do. Which fortunately, is why so many happy owners of other types remain happy with their choice, I guess. As has been said - "an anchor never fails you until it does..."
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Old 05-13-2012, 06:20 AM   #80
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I've thought quite a bit about this dragging thing. I think the thing about dragging, after the anchor has set, say in unexpected blow conditions, is the way it drags rather than whether it does or does not, as all have their holding limit. Some, like the Bruce, and maybe the Danforth I suspect, will drag along still set for a bit, but then because the shape does not favour it digging in further, will pop out, bounce along a bit, then attempt to set again, and may - or may not - depending on the forces involved and the speed of the drag, and the bottom type. Others, like the Rocna, Manson, Spade, XYZ, etc, will tend to dig in further and just drag through the bottom for a bit, but in the end will scoop up and hold so much bottom they either prevail and stay set and stop moving, or they pop out. After which their ability to rid themselves of the accumulated bottom and re-set again will decide what happens next. Some, like the Rocna and maybe the Manson Supreme are better at this than others, because the roll bar keeps their tips downward pointing which is a must for quick re-set. The third kind of drag is what you might call 'controlled' drag, and is what a well set plow shaped anchor does, (and in that sense the Sarca fits in there also), the operative word being well set. If well set, if the hold is overcome, instead of popping out, the anchor stays buried because the shape of the fluke, like a plow, keeps it headed south as it were, and by it's shape it can shed accumulated bottom substrate, and move. It will drag a few feet of so, then often hold again, so the boat may move a short distance, but is not dragging in an uncontrolled way.
Some have called this 'streamlined in the direction of the pull', and do not favour it because it seems counter-intuitive to provide less resistance in the direction of pull - fair enough. However, I think of it as shaped to not only shed bottom coming up, but when buried, to provide a high amount of resistance, but if this is overcome, then the shape, as it moves forward, tends to drive it further down, rather than fill with bottom it can't dispose of, whereas concave fluke types either 'win the tug-o-war' or have to come up to spit the dummy (bottom), and try again.

Of course, all anchors will have an absolute limit. It's when that occurs, and what happens then that gets exciting. It still clearly pays to not expose your boat to that extreme if at all possible - and we do. Which fortunately, is why so many happy owners of other types remain happy with their choice, I guess. As has been said - "an anchor never fails you until it does..."
You are kidding about the Danforth statement....I hope...otherwise I'm not sure how you think anchors work.

I try very hard and give credit to people in these forums till they come out with stuff that's OFF THE MAP about things....The danforth will dig till the pull is overcome by resistance or the flukes break off. That's why they blow all other anchors off the scale for holding in similat situations...the problem is they are finicky...but a set one will never fail in a straight line pull unless IT breaks or the bottom breaks free (assuming the scope doesn't exceed it's design angle but that's true of all anchors except cement blocks)
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