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Old 05-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #41
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I think it's a good theory but with the trip line led to the boat with the rode a wonderful situation for getting the trip line wound around and tangled with the rode is set up. To my way of thinking, I like our rode (all chain) coming back to the boat on its own. Our trip line when we use it is attached to a shackle permanently left in the hole in the top (wide end) of the fluke that the manufacturer put there for this purpose. From there the trip line goes straight up to its own float. So the trip line and the anchor rode never get close to each other except when we're actually retrieving the anchor.

Now you could do the same thing with the trip line attached to the sliding shackle in the slot per your scenario above. But frankly I'd rather have the trip line attached to the end of the fluke itself since that's what you're trying to back out of the bottom.

The Bruce has a trip line shackle hole at the front corner of the shank over the flukes. We kept a shackle permanently in this hole, too, for a trip line when we thought we might need one.

You can also use a purpose-built stainless split hoop if you find you need to trip the anchor out but don't have a trip line rigged. This thing is big enough in diameter to slide down the rode-- rope or chain---- and over the shank of most anchors. Don't know about the slotted shank anchors though, since their shanks are so tall.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:45 PM   #42
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Your'e the man Larry.
I like to experiment......tell us all about it but I agree w Marin and probably would'nt do it. Sounds like more trouble and less advantage than a regular trip line. Larry I looked up a pic of the Delta and they provide a trip line shackle hole in the fluke end of the shank.

My trip line on the Supreme is attached to a 2nd shackle at the fluke end of the anchor slot that passes UNDER the roll bar and thus exerts it's upward pull much further fwd. Should have a much better chance of pulling out a "stuck" anchor. The Rocna's trip line mounting hole may be ideal but the drag of the shackle could impede anchor penetration. That's one of the reasons I did'nt drill a hole in the Supreme's fluke for that purpose.

Perhaps when I get to Washington I can shorten my trip lines.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:02 PM   #43
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The Rocna's trip line mounting hole may be ideal but the drag of the shackle could impede anchor penetration. That's one of the reasons I did'nt drill a hole in the Supreme's fluke for that purpose.
Wait a minute. Aren't you the fella who's been making noise about the rollbar anchor's rollbar being a massive impediment to the anchor's ability to dig in? So now you're saying a tiny little wee shackle on the top of the fluke is going to make a difference to the anchor's ability to dig in? Hmmmm.... I'm thinkin' your armchair's getting quite the theoritical workout up there, Eric.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:20 PM   #44
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I don’t have all chain and run at relatively high speeds (compared to sailboats). Waves often cover the bow rattling the anchor and roller. I use the trip line to retrieve the anchor at the stern, where it can be stowed ready to launch. The anchor rode remains attached and leads through the bow roller. Often being shorthanded this also keeps me off a narrow bow.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:34 PM   #45
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Peter--- I understand everything you are pointing out in your last post. And what you say makes absolute sense with regards to the shackle jamming in the slot and so forth. I don't know that I 'd want to trust my boat to stay put on the strength of something jamming against something else but I will concede your point. (that's not the main deal in how it works, just one small part - My edit. PB)

But here's the deal.... One of the reasons I believe I've had this kind of experience is that I follow a very basic philosophy: whatever
can happen eventually will.
So I do everything in my power to short circuit negative "can happen" situations.

As this applies to slotted-shank anchors, the rode
can slide down the slot and unset the anchor. And has. It might be rare, it might be almost impossible. There might be huge odds against it happening. But anything that can happen eventually will happen. If I don't have a slotted shank anchor, the rode will NEVER slide down the slot and unset the anchor. Ever. And that concern and uncertainty no longer even exist for me.
End of story.


Manyboats wrote....
I think it's Peter's time to get the last word.
Rather than call it the last word, as I try not to be one of those gottahavethelastword type people, I would say, can I just pose one last question - to everybody who was interested enough to follow this thread...?

Of the two scenarios, which is the more likely? And I'm thinking now of what Marin says above, because what he said is absolutely correct, and is my own philosophy - one which has helped me a lot on my professional life as well. To paraphrase it...'if something can go wrong at a bad moment, it often will, so do everything possible to counter that'.

Coming back to the question, which is more likely, life being a percentage thing in the end...

1. the incredibly rare and unlikely event of the shackle sliding down the shank and tripping the anchor at a bad time, (which I think we have established is extremely unlikely - in fact, under real load, I can't think of a way that could happen)...... or

2. the event of one's anchor becoming fouled in something on the bottom you just cannot free it from with usual tactics, and on the very day (Murphy's Law, remember) you did not bother to set your rather complicated trip and float line. Because it's a bit of a fiddle and extra stuffing round, right? Something most people would do less than 50% of the times they anchor - most never do, in fact, from my observation.
Except maybe for Giggitoni (Ray) who said...
Ironically, I've never had to use the trip line to break the anchor out. That's why I always use it.. Murphy's Law, ya' know! Ray
Now there's a man after Marin's heart eh Marin..?

Ok, so what's the answer - which is more likely to really give you grief. Using an anchor with slotted shank which sets like a dream, but which in some freakish situation, and in light conditions and you drifted over it, just might trip itself, flip the anchor out, then re-set so fast you didn't even know it had happened....?

Or having to cut away - if you can in a hurry - most couldn't, ~$1000 worth of ground tackle...?
Something I know happens, because it had to be done to the cruiser I once owned when it was in charter, and it cost us a whole new anchor and chain, and I only owned it 18 months.

Marin you yourself supplied a beautiful example of this percentage likelihood thing, when justifying happily flying a Beaver float plane with only one simple engine, even tho your life literally depends on it, but because it's simple and reliable, versus preferring a boat with two engines because there was more to go wrong with them. I sort of see this as a similar issue...but each to his own I reckon...
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:00 AM   #46
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Peter-- Not sure your comparison of a single engine Beaver and a twin engine boat holds up. Both engine types (in my case) are equally basic. There is more of a risk with the plane--- any plane--- than the boat. So you do what you can to minimize that risk. But because of the type of flying we do, a single-engine plane is the only option. So your choice is made for you before you start. You accept it or you don't, and if you don't then you don't do that type of flying. And the stats say-- or at least used to, don't know about now-- that more people are killed in multi-engine planes that lose one of their engines than in single-engine planes that lose their only engine. Bunch of good reasons for this but not appropriate to this discussion.

A difference between us is that you are willing to accept what are without question very good odds that your anchor will not be backked out for the reason we've been talking about. Whereas I prefer to simply eliminate the possibility altogether and thus the risk. I can do that because there are equally effective alternatives to the slot anchor.

And while trip lines can certainly be rigged up with all sorts of fancy doo-dads like pulleys and counterweights and such, the setup we have is dirt simple to deploy and dirt simple to retrieve. We've never had a problem with it and it's worked as advertised on the few occasions we've needed it to work. In fact, it's probably less time-consuming to use than it would be to maneuver the boat around to the other side of the anchor in an attempt to slide the rode down the slot and back the anchor out. So I don't view a trip line--- at least not our trip line--- as any sort of bother at all. But I won't deny that they can be.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:59 AM   #47
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I was using a trip line in Squirrel Cove, Desolation Sound, BC Canada ( a place with old logging cable) and a guy in a skiff tried to pull up the line. When I finally noticed and yelled at him, he said he thought it was a crab pot. Why he was trying to pull a pot that was not his I don't know, but he was pulling pretty hard on it when I stopped him.

After that, I wrote on the float, "Anchor bouy, do not pull". That should help, but I decided to not use a trip line in 'tourist' anchorages, like in Desolation Sound.

I have also had the boat ride over the trip line float, causing noise at night, and there is the possibility of fouling the trip line on the running gear.

As well as save your anchor, a trip line, can trip the anchor when you don't want it to.

I am now considering using a trip line with my Delta by using the hole in the shank near the flukes and bringing the line back to the bow. It could wrap around the chain but the coil of line can be passed around the chain to unwind the foul.

Another option is to shackle the chain to the trip line hole, route the chain along the shank, and lash the chain at the normal shackle. The idea is that if the anchor is stuck, a strong upward pull on the chain would break the lashing and allow the anchor to pull out backwards.

Of course, this could also result in a unwanted tripping and the anchor could not reset.

Seems to me that there are no perfect solutions! So, just pay your money and take your chances! LOL

Re the slotted anchors and requiring a special shackle: Why doesn't the manufacturer supply the shackle with the anchor?
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:36 AM   #48
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Quote:
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Seems to me that there are no perfect solutions! So, just pay your money and take your chances! LOL

Re the slotted anchors and requiring a special shackle: Why doesn't the manufacturer supply the shackle with the anchor?
Very fair comment Larry, I'll pass that along to Rex, the designer.

I doubt it will make any difference, but for what it's worth I anchor a lot out in our Moreton Bay off Brisbane, which is a long tapering bay, skirted by a sand island chain, with only narrow entry/exit points for the tide to enter and leave, so currents are fast, and constantly reversing. There are two complete tide changes per 24 hrs, and being full of many rather narrow, shoal-lined channels, the current therefore honks for 5 hrs one way, then after about an hour of slack honks at 2-3 kn for 5 odd hrs the other way, and the boats are swapping ends every time. In all this time - now about 8 yrs on the Sarca, we have never come unstuck - not once.
Dagnabit - somebody better say something - I said I didn't want the last word....
For any interested, click below, and specifically scroll down and look at the aerial photo of the southern part and the islands and channels, and you'll see what I mean. I might add it is nothing to have wind as well, because they average 15-20 kn most days - often more.
Moreton Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:47 AM   #49
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Rather than call it the last word, as I try not to be one of those gottahavethelastword type people, I would say, can I just pose one last question - to everybody who was interested enough to follow this thread...?

Of the two scenarios, which is the more likely? And I'm thinking now of what Marin says above, because what he said is absolutely correct, and is my own philosophy - one which has helped me a lot on my professional life as well. To paraphrase it...'if something can go wrong at a bad moment, it often will, so do everything possible to counter that'.

Coming back to the question, which is more likely, life being a percentage thing in the end...

1. the incredibly rare and unlikely event of the shackle sliding down the shank and tripping the anchor at a bad time, (which I think we have established is extremely unlikely - in fact, under real load, I can't think of a way that could happen)...... or

2. the event of one's anchor becoming fouled in something on the bottom you just cannot free it from with usual tactics, and on the very day (Murphy's Law, remember) you did not bother to set your rather complicated trip and float line. Because it's a bit of a fiddle and extra stuffing round, right? Something most people would do less than 50% of the times they anchor - most never do, in fact, from my observation.
Except maybe for Giggitoni (Ray) who said...
Ironically, I've never had to use the trip line to break the anchor out. That's why I always use it.. Murphy's Law, ya' know! Ray
Now there's a man after Marin's heart eh Marin..?

Ok, so what's the answer - which is more likely to really give you grief. Using an anchor with slotted shank which sets like a dream, but which in some freakish situation, and in light conditions and you drifted over it, just might trip itself, flip the anchor out, then re-set so fast you didn't even know it had happened....?

Or having to cut away - if you can in a hurry - most couldn't, ~$1000 worth of ground tackle...?
Something I know happens, because it had to be done to the cruiser I once owned when it was in charter, and it cost us a whole new anchor and chain, and I only owned it 18 months.

Marin you yourself supplied a beautiful example of this percentage likelihood thing, when justifying happily flying a Beaver float plane with only one simple engine, even tho your life literally depends on it, but because it's simple and reliable, versus preferring a boat with two engines because there was more to go wrong with them. I sort of see this as a similar issue...but each to his own I reckon...
There's an old saying that goes..."don't ask the question if you're not gonna like the asnswer"....so here goes..

Anchors are like boats and tools they are all in some way a compromise...there are diffferent designs with everything form average strengths and weaknesses to the extremes that do some things well but most things poorly...my example would be the Fortress anchor that has lightweight and incredible holding...but every other desireable feature is often it's weak point.

Here on the Atlantic seaboard south of Long Island...and not Southern Florida or the Bahamas....the chances of snagging an anchor are extremely rare compared to the norm of anchoring places that have strong tidal current reversal 4 times a day and are subject to daily wind shits as well plus 60 knot gusts from passing thunderstorms (6 months of the year or more) that can come from any direction.

So the answer to your question...depending on where you boat...in some places you are probably 100-1000 more times likely to ride the shackle back to the trip position accidently than need it intentionally to trip her out.

It may be less in other places...but unless you are intentionally anchorring in a boulder field, coral reef...or known snag area...your chanced of boat wander will always probably exceed the need to intentionally trip.

That all said...if you truly trust the non-slipping slot..you have the best of both worlds. I'm planning on a Manson Supreme in the near future and will probably use the slot every time I can to get used to it and trust it...but a lot of times at first it's going to be non-slot with old fashion trip line till I'm satisfied.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:21 PM   #50
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psneeld wrote:

"It may be less in other places...but unless you are intentionally anchorring in a boulder field, coral reef...or known snag area...your chanced of boat wander will always probably exceed the need to intentionally trip."

Well that's what they do down there where the slotted anchors are made and designed. I think the Manson would sell much better w/o the slot in North American markets because most boaters do'nt trust them up here. I think the Manson and Anchor Right anchors are excellent but the slots are of questionable value up here.

What is the best thing you like about the Supreme?
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #51
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highly recommended, Lloyds approved, newer design like spade and rocna but less money...also a bit heavier for 1 over recommended size.

still unsure about the slot...but will try it gradually.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:48 AM   #52
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Well that's what they do down there where the slotted anchors are made and designed. I think the Manson would sell much better w/o the slot in North American markets because most boaters don't trust them up here.
I think the Manson and Anchor Right anchors are excellent but the slots are of questionable value up here.
Guys...true story.
When I moved to Oz from NZ, I left ahead of the family, as the house had not sold. I stayed with my wife's parents, (the in-laws who lived here in Brisbane as my wife is from here), while I sorted out a practice, etc, and the house sold and then the family joined me 5 months later. While I was living with them, (paying board, I might add), we had a spell of seriously wet weather, and I noticed how mother-in-law was having to hang the washing around in the house. Being grateful for their hospitality, and wanting to express this, the light-bulbs went on, and I went out and bought her a dryer....showed her how to use it - they had been missionaries out East up to not long before, so had never had something like that - and felt that was a really practical way to show appreciation. Anyway...the washing disappeared, so I thought...great, good deed done...helping solve an issue. Some weeks later, I had occasion to go into the garden shed. There was all the washing, hanging on lines all round the garden shed...!
I had a good laugh - appreciated the fact she had not wanted to seem ungrateful - but out of interest asked her what the real concern was? Was she frightened it would use too much electricity or what...?
"No", she replied, "it's just that natural air-drying has served me well all these years, and...well...to be honest, I couldn't really trust it..."
True story, I swear - sound familiar..?
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:20 AM   #53
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Guys...true story.
When I moved to Oz from NZ, I left ahead of the family, as the house had not sold. I stayed with my wife's parents, (the in-laws who lived here in Brisbane as my wife is from here), while I sorted out a practice, etc, and the house sold and then the family joined me 5 months later. While I was living with them, (paying board, I might add), we had a spell of seriously wet weather, and I noticed how mother-in-law was having to hang the washing around in the house. Being grateful for their hospitality, and wanting to express this, the light-bulbs went on, and I went out and bought her a dryer....showed her how to use it - they had been missionaries out East up to not long before, so had never had something like that - and felt that was a really practical way to show appreciation. Anyway...the washing disappeared, so I thought...great, good deed done...helping solve an issue. Some weeks later, I had occasion to go into the garden shed. There was all the washing, hanging on lines all round the garden shed...!
I had a good laugh - appreciated the fact she had not wanted to seem ungrateful - but out of interest asked her what the real concern was? Was she frightened it would use too much electricity or what...?
"No", she replied, "it's just that natural air-drying has served me well all these years, and...well...to be honest, I couldn't really trust it..."
True story, I swear - sound familiar..?
no...not at all.

if you set the scenario a few years after electric dryers came out...then it would be more comparitive.

when slotted anchors have decades of foolproof use...then the naysayers have less room to wriggle....but there ARE stories of these anchors dragging after an apparent wind/tide shift...so until failures are sensibly explained how and how to prevent...then they cast doubt..except for some people

but good story
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:54 AM   #54
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Great story Peter and I immediately thought of My thoughts about old anchors and FF especially. Also the fishermen here in Alaska. Unlike myself most people are'nt interested in anchors beyond holding the boat reasonably well and the Claw or a Danforth are the only ones that seem to be a bit more numerous than a great number of other anchors. To the person not knowing anything about anchors it would appear that it dos'nt make much or any difference what one is used.

Haha ...I agree w psneeld also but most people of the world seem to have more important things to worry about than having things that are just a little bit better than others. The cleverness of devices draws Marin, myself and some others into the leading edge stuff but most just want a boat, anchor and stuff that fits the needs of the family, the self and/or the situation at hand. The high tech anchors may never really prove themselves and there may be just as many different anchors 50 years from now as now. Marin may never encounter a situation that a 44lb Claw could'nt handle ( I would'nt say that if he had'nt said as much himself) but the Claw would never give him the satisfaction the Rocna does. So it looks like Sailor of Fortune had the right idea "run what you brung".
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:32 PM   #55
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Marin may never encounter a situation that a 44lb Claw could'nt handle ( I would'nt say that if he had'nt said as much himself) but the Claw would never give him the satisfaction the Rocna does. So it looks like Sailor of Fortune had the right idea "run what you brung".
If the Bruce worked as advertised we'd still have it on the bow. Another eleven pounds of anchor-- at least that design of anchor--- would not have made any difference in our case. I have talked to people with the same boat as ours but with a 44 pound Bruce and it drags all over the place just like ours did. And at least one of them has switched to a Rocna for the same reasons we did. Weight is a factor but so is design and I am convinced the Bruce/Claw design does not scale down into the smaller sizes and retain the same reliability as it does in the big sizes (like tons).

But you are correct, I like the Rocna over all the other anchors on the market today because to me its principle of operation and the execution of the design set it above all the others in terms of the kind of anchoring we do. Every anchor is perfect until the day it proves not to be. So far, our Rocna is perfect.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:11 PM   #56
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Marin,

The one thing that everybody agrees on is that bigger and heavier is better.

"Every anchor is perfect until the day it proves not to be"

Well then our 14lb Danforth is perfect.


Well I finally got Peter's DVD from Anchor Right Australia.
I watched it once today and was appalled at how much of a mess Supremes and Rocnas made of the bottom. I do'nt think one could build a device that would do better at that. I'm getting more and more skeptical of anchors that need to set laying on their side. I was'nt watching for it but do'nt recall the Sarca doing that. Seems to me it set right side up all the time. I think I'd sell my Supreme for $100 right now ...not for holding power issues but just because it seems to be such sea plow. Peter is right I think, in that it would be good for all to see but I'm not convinced it proves the slot is without fault. And I still think anchor testing w the chain laying flat on the ground/bottom is ideal nor is dragging anchors on beaches. But I do'nt think either is valueless. I'll watch it more when I get more time. Since Peter sent this to me I'll try to be as objective as possible in what I say. Please hold me accountable to that if you can help me achieve my goal.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:03 AM   #57
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But I do'nt think either is valueless.

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Old 05-12-2012, 07:21 AM   #58
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Just small but important point - the testing is done in a metre of water normally for serious comparison testing, with a standard length of chain scope. Clearly one cannot film that however, so for the purposes of demo, in level & wet foreshore is close enough for jazz, as they say.
PS. Good to hear you got it Eric, but now they're all going to want one...
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:01 PM   #59
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I have talked to people with the same boat as ours but with a 44 pound Bruce and it drags all over the place just like ours did.
I wonder if GB's are allergic to Bruce anchors! LOL

I have a 37 ft Tiawan built trawler, similar to a GB 36 but with a single engine, and the bow is higher from the water by a couple of feet.

I used a Bruce 44 for 4 years on my boat, anchoring from the San Juans thru SE Alaska. I never had a drag, and the anchor always set right away, usually on a 2 to 1 scope. After setting, I let out more scope, either 4 to 1 or 5 to 1, sometimes up to 7 to 1 or more, usually with a bridle. After setting I never had the anchor drag and sometimes it was set so well, it took a bit of work with the chain vertical to release. A few times ole Bruce would not set due to a rocky bottom, but you know its not set. Backing down until the chain comes up tight and the boat stops moving lets you know its set.

Marin,

When you refer to dragging, do you mean that after getting a set, the anchor then drags, or that the anchor never gets a set? To me, dragging is what happens after getting a set, later, like when the wind comes up.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #60
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I want one.

I called Joe Smith in Seattle but all he had was 80 pounders. Intends to get more but, of course he is going to wait till he's ready to order a large quantity.

I do remember in the video when the pull went gradually around at 100-1 scope the Sarca just rotated. You could see the very top of the roll bar and it was'nt even a tiny bit work'in it's way out. Stayed right down there. Looked like most all of the beach material was brown sand except for the weed that plugged the Rocna and Supreme....and the mud that also plugged the R&S. The Excel buried deep....to the point where there was only a slight lumped up area where the anchor was and the chain going down into the sand. I've seen video of the R&S buried too and most other modern anchors if given a very soft bottom. The Sarca seemed to set right side up and quicker than the Excel. These are rough observations from the first view only. More to follow.

At least at this point it looks like the distributor will likely be in Seattle.

Larry,
Yes good point and I perceive dragging as you do. And I also had 2 or 3 experiences w my Bruce on the Albin whereas we had to work the anchor out w the boat. My Bruce dragged a bit while setting at times but no dragging or breakouts after setting. I'd call it 99% performance. Where are you guys now? Weather's awful up here. Would'nt even want to be out on a boat. Usually May and June are rather dry and nice but most often chilly. Now it's chilly and very wet......raining most all the time and 37 to 44 degrees. And windy too.
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