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Old 10-15-2014, 01:35 PM   #21
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Here's the reply I received from Manson Anchors. Guess I need a can of cold galvanizing spray from Walmart. Go figure.

Hi there Howard.

To clarify some things about galvanisation first. Galvanisation is a
coating, and additionally when applied to the shanks of the Manson Supreme
and Manson Boss needs to be regarded as the softer sacrificial coating that
it is. When galvanising if formed, there is a coating and also a Zinc Alloy
forms with the top layer of the parent/base metal the anchor is constructed
from.
Because high tensile steel is much much harder than it's mild steel
counterpart 250 Brinell Vs 120 Brinell it means that the Zinc top coating
becomes the meat in the sandwich far more than with an old generation
anchor.

The expectation is that your anchor is quite similar to the paint work on
the front of the car, it's susceptible to stone chips, and impact damage in
exactly the same way. Use the anchor more and it will be at higher risk. Use
it in rocky ground and it will be at higher risk of damage. It really only
takes on anchor episode where it hits some steel debris or a harder rock, or
even stone or boulder on the seafloor to cause damage to the galvanising
coating.

We galvanise thousands of anchors ever year. We use the best galvaniser in
New Zealand, and additionally we send hundreds back to be regalvanised from
our QA process which is extremely rigorous.

The seabed is a very tough environment. We have had two Superyacht anchors,
made from Lloyd's Register approved 316L anchor in seabeds where the 316L
corroded. The analysis was conducted on the plate by a leading Metallurgist
in the USA, and it was determined that it was nothing to do with the
material and it's to do with the seabed. 316L corrodes in certain saltwater
conditions.

This is why Manson cannot offer to warranty galvanising. We simply have no
idea what each anchor hits, is anchored in and the potential for damage is
really high that it's not commercially viable and we'd need to dramatically
increase the price of our product. An anchor could get damaged in one
situation, and then it could take months for the issue to arise. This would
then never be attributed to that incident.

Just as in your car, you have to check the paint on the front for damage and
if it's not mended it will continue to corrode and eventually rust. The
owner of an anchor should be expected to review the galvanising on the
anchor, and, remediate as required. Whilst we do all the QA possible so too
does the customer. When an anchor is purchased, the galvanising is fairly
straight forward to analyse visually. It's a what you see is what you get
scenario, if it looks good, 99.99% of the time it is good. Presumably you
saw nothing remiss when you purchased the product.

So, in relation to your enquiry below. Yes you've watched the anchor come up
100's of times, but have you watched the anchor hit the seabed every time
and been sure that it's not suffered impact damage on the way down, or hit a
piece of concrete or steel on the seafloor, it's impossible to say that it
has not. You yourself admit you've anchored hundreds of times. Heavy use,
means must higher risk of damage and wear on the galvanising coating. To say
on the forum that my email to you was BS is a little insulting as quite
simply it wasn't BS, I never lie to customers. I've seen good galvanising
and bad, and your photos were not due to bad galvanising. There was clearly
impact damage on the anchor.

The solution is firstly to topically spray your anchor, or, and should that
fail, after heavy use over a period of a few years to have the anchor
regalvanised. Chain will do the same thing over heavy use and require
regalvanisation. You as the user cannot have an expectation that the
galvanising will last forever, this is not founded on any principles of
galvanisation if you understand the process and the relationship that using
the metals in the construction of our anchors involve.

This is absolutely not at all related to Rocna building product out of a
material they knew to be below their advertised tensile strength. We have
always been clear with our customers over the last 40 years about the
expectations from galvanising. We would totally refute any inference
otherwise.

The pitting on the shank in that customers' situation on Trawlers forum we
have reviewed, sent to our supplier, and, this is inconsistent with the
problem being to do with the galvanising and likely more an isolated issue
due to the higher phosphorus and silicon levels in the high tensile steel
and nothing can really be done to avoid the very very occasional issues when
they arise. Note the anchor isn't rusting, it's just causing little pits
which can be filled with some topical treatment, as you'd do with stonechips
in your bonnet.

Thanks again Howard for your email, but it's important to inform you of the
real work expectations of high tensile steel galvanising, and, galvanising
itself as a corrosive protectant. It's important we match customer
expectations with the realworld situations and scenarios.

Warm regards
Ned Wood
Manson Anchors
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:20 PM   #22
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So the galvanizing on anchors is meant to be sacrificial???

I wonder what he gets paid for such Bohemian Socioparapsycholgy.
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:46 PM   #23
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I'm not impressed w Manson saying the pitting was caused by wear from the sea floor. I'm also unhappy about this in that I've recommended the Supreme to many people. If I had been Manson I'd at least send the customer $50 for re-galvanizing.

On the upside I've used aerosol spray galvanize w great success so it should take care of the problem. However it looks to me like some kind of electrolysis caused the pits or very small holes. Like the anchor was lowered over the side like a sacrificial anode and subject to stray current or perhaps a hot marina. But what would one be doing hang'in their anchor over the side? Perhaps the owners boat was anchored for a long time next to or actually in a marina that was hot.

Unless other Manson anchors come up w the same problem I'm going to assume this particular anchor has seen some very unusual treatment or usage. Perhaps it's just a glitch that got past Manson's QC. Something unusual obviously happened.

Any other Manson's out there have similar symptoms? Mine sure dosn't look like that.
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Old 10-15-2014, 03:21 PM   #24
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Ned Wood

Your reply to the galvanizing issue covered the subject pretty well, but with two exceptions. First, to suggest your galvanizing process in no way suffers the same fate as Rocna's metallurgical build issues seems to raise a red flag about your galvanizing process when one wasn't needed. Second, maybe the anchor in question should have been one that was indeed rejected via the QA procedures you stated were in place.

To be clear, my background includes a degree in metallurgical engineering, active work history in the zinc primary and secondary business and front line work in a zinc galvanizing enterprise where about 50,000 tons per year of conduit were plated.

I fully well know there are several missteps and shortcuts in the zinc heavy metal (like anchors and chains) galvanizing business that can lead to QA/QC rejection visually as well as via sporadic non destructive testing. Maybe a hint or two on these product support and backstop procedures would be helpful.

Your anchors are great and obviously well received in the marketplace. Unfortunately in this day and age internet rumor and mongering raises a new challenge to quell innuendo and adroitly put down stupid stuff from guys like us.

Respectfully,

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Old 10-15-2014, 04:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I'm not impressed w Manson saying the pitting was caused by wear from the sea floor. I'm also unhappy about this in that I've recommended the Supreme to many people. If I had been Manson I'd at least send the customer $50 for re-galvanizing.

On the upside I've used aerosol spray galvanize w great success so it should take care of the problem. However it looks to me like some kind of electrolysis caused the pits or very small holes. Like the anchor was lowered over the side like a sacrificial anode and subject to stray current or perhaps a hot marina. But what would one be doing hang'in their anchor over the side? Perhaps the owners boat was anchored for a long time next to or actually in a marina that was hot.

Unless other Manson anchors come up w the same problem I'm going to assume this particular anchor has seen some very unusual treatment or usage. Perhaps it's just a glitch that got past Manson's QC. Something unusual obviously happened.

Any other Manson's out there have similar symptoms? Mine sure dosn't look like that.
Eric, as you know I was considering the Manson Boss. This makes me glad to have chosen the Ex-Cel. Even my Delta after anchoring in all sorts of bottoms (sand, mud, and coral rock) for 10 years shows no problem with the galvanizing.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:12 PM   #26
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Greetings,
OK, I'll admit it...30 Kg. Bruce. Probably 15years old at least. Only wear/rust is on tips and where the shank sits on the bow roller (stainless). NO pitting at all. Shank although weathered/dull is still galvanized. Just gave her 2 coats of Rustoleum Bright Galvanizing compound. The can says dry film contains 93% zinc. As others have said, yours seems to have slipped through QA unless, as Mr. mb suggests other Manson users have experienced similar pitting.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:29 PM   #27
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Don,
Yea I'm a bit glad you passed on the Boss ..... it looks a bit questionable now but some great anchors have looked questionable at times. My own favorite the XYZ looks bad in most of the anchor tests but I support one XYZ model anchor as it seems extremely well designed and I've had a 100% success experience w it. Most of my experience has been w the modified anchor though.

I think you would have been equally happy w the Supreme and I think Marin would have been pleased w the performance of a Claw if he had just gotten a bigger anchor.

The Boss may suffer a little like the first XYZ. They look a little bit alike and are definitely short. The SARCA is also short but seems to make the best of it ... maybe related to it's weight being well aft.

If there was anything wrong w Manson's galvanizing I'm sure we would have uncovered it before. But on the other hand if it was an extremely isolated occurrence (and I think it is) you'd think Manson could be a little more supportive.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:31 PM   #28
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I have seen similar pinhole pitting on galvanized anchors, boat trailers, turnbuckles, and even a $1.00 swivel that was on sale at Defender as a "blemished" product.

I can't say that it's something I would want on my anchor...but with no rust from the pin holes and seeing the same effect on many galvanized parts in service also with no rust...can't say I'd get too excited about it if I never saw rust in that area.
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:47 PM   #29
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Hello, we very rarely comment on these boards, and I am only doing this to address this issue directly without having my emails posted up here and misconstrued.

We use a third party to galvanise our product, the best galvaniser in New Zealand. This company, along with all other companies willl not give us any warranties on any galvanising, so, inheriting the warranty becomes problematic and extremely subjective to the potential reason for the galvanisation to have been worn in places.

Firstly in response to Sunchaser, the reason the Rocna issue was raised was that I was replying to an email that raised it to me, indicating I needed to be in front of the issue. I'd welcome any feedback from you about our QA procedures, but, I do doubt that visually we'd have seen any difference in this anchor.

Secondly in response to Manyboats, I never said that the pitting was caused by the seafloor. I said, that the impact damage visible was likely from impact. Our supplier indicated he wasn't sure but said that it's possible it was caused by the higher Phosphorus and Silicon content in the high tensile steel. It's potentially a steel/galvanising relationship, they do interact with each other intimately.
I said that there are many things in seabeds which can cause impact damage, and corrosion damage, like an old sunken boat or piece of steel cast of a ship. just because an anchorfield is mud doesnt' mean there can't be other debris in it. Once the galvanisation 'seal' is broken things can start to be affected.

I would love to be able to warranty galvanisation. But, the major issue is that what a consumer feels is a galvanisation issue, is potentially more a maintenance issue. Galvanisation isn't a perfect problem. You have to replace varnish on a boat, because it degrades in sunlight, an anchor sits in the sun, is dragged along all sorts of debris, in all sorts of seabed rot, and i think it's a little unrealistic to expect the galvanisation to not be in any way affected by this treatment.

Donsan, galvanisation isn't exactly sacrificial, but the only two galvanised components on a boat are the chain and anchor. What does a zinc anode do?

We do our best every single day to make the best anchor product on the market, we strive to ensure it's a safe, reliable, well made product. To suggest otherwise is a bit gutting but any visit to our factory would show the lengths we go to and processes we have in place.

Commercially I am not quite sure how we can warranty galvanising, when any of our suppliers won't and we reject so many anchors because the galvanising isn't nearly perfect. LAstly, in over 17,000 Supremes sold, i've never seen this issue, which would actually suggest to me that it's something rotten/alkaline in the seabed that has reacted with the parent steel, and the galvanisation to cause this. Like I said, i've seen 316L corrode, that was not our issue, it's just 316L in the right conditions will corrode. Expectations need to be matched with what can happen in the seabed.

Lastly, I don't actually get paid that much, and I'm not sure what Bohemian Socioparapsycholgy is, I'm just trying to help a customer out. I also wasn't told my responses would be posted, which is slightly unfortunate, not that I would have replied any different, but it would have been a courtesy I would have extended to a supplier which had otherwise delivered a fairly good product.
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Old 10-15-2014, 07:44 PM   #30
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Manson...thanks for the clarification...

I followed from the beginning...and have seen pin holes in areas of thick galvanizing in many places without even being underwater..don't know if it's the zinc or the underlying material causing it...but I wouldn't even go so far as to say it's "rare".

Many things are discussed here...and like most forums...most of it is thin air in hours or days as far as anyone taking info/posters seriously....hopefully the few get what they need and move on.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:28 PM   #31
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I anchor in the same places that I have for years with other anchors. This anchor has seen light use on the Chesapeake Bay for 3 years. I rarely anchor for more than a night at a time. I doubt that the mud bottom of Dividing Creek on the Wye river has suddenly become toxic to Manson brand anchors.

It doesn't really matter if a third party galvanizes your anchors. Manson is the seller of the anchor, and responsible for quality control. If in fact this is an extremely rare occurrence, most quality manufacturers would want to examine the product to see what went wrong. It is always easier to point fingers at the end user and say its his fault.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. The boat show starts tomorrow, and I'll be looking at anchors. I doubt if I'll stop at the Manson booth.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:58 PM   #32
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Yonder,
Your next anchor may have a better finish but will it be a better anchor?

Too bad you're not in the PNW as I'd buy it.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:48 PM   #33
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I think Marin would have been pleased w the performance of a Claw if he had just gotten a bigger anchor.
Hello from Malaysia. I'm sure you are correct, Eric. However the 655 pound Bruce that the Bruce folks told us was their recomendation for our size of boat (Grand Banks 36) would not fit on our pulpit. So we had to settle for a somewhat smaller model. And, as had been predicted by the folks at Bruce, it dragged halfway to China every time the wind got up over 20 knots or so.

So we sent it to the landfill, where I understand it is holding quite well even in winds in excess of 35 knots, and replaced it with a more intelligent design.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:53 PM   #34
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Hello from Malaysia. I'm sure you are correct, Eric. However the 655 pound Bruce that the Bruce folks told us was their recomendation for our size of boat (Grand Banks 36) would not fit on our pulpit. So we had to settle for a somewhat smaller model. And, as had been predicted by the folks at Bruce, it dragged halfway to China every time the wind got up over 20 knots or so.

So we sent it to the landfill, where I understand it is holding quite well even in winds in excess of 35 knots, and replaced it with a more intelligent design.
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