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Old 07-17-2012, 04:43 AM   #21
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Correction---- The fellow who owned Suncoast Marine in Vancouver when we bought our Rocna from them was Mark Pocock, not Tom.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:52 PM   #22
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Hi Marin,
You're right Marin. Personal preference. Could even be more important than bottoms in anchor land. You know I process all the anchor stuff in front of me and then look behiend for more and I try to be objective but I know I fall short at times.
Re the Rocna my preference and philosophy dictates I'd prolly never buy one just because their short scope performance has (to my knowledge) never been praised and has been criticized several times in anchor tests. I gather that ther'e are many boaters here that always have enough room to anchor at 7-1 but I rarely do and when it's possible (without compromise) I still limit scope to about 4-1. 5-1 in a gale and I've never dragged. Many here would consider this careless.
I'm not say'in it did but it may have played a part in my using too much scope thereby limiting my ability to keep off the rocks and we hit a rock at 2am. So I've had the experience of using too much scope.
So Marin is spot on saying personal preference is profound in anchor thinking and I'll be the first to admit that I can be less that fully objective but I promise you I try hard to be objective.
Re the OP ..... I suspect that the shank on the Fortress is not only highly tapered but is probably made out of much stronger aluminum. The parent material in aluminum products is very important.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:15 PM   #23
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actually they say they use the same alloy for the FX and the Guardians. apparently the smaller, cleaner extruding process of the FX allows them to make a slightly larger anchor for the same weight. The Guardian is "bulkier" for lack of a better term. Shank is more squared off (thicker in the corners) and the outer edges of the flukes isn't as nicely finished, not anodized, and doesn't allow for the 45* setting. All things I was more than willing to overlook for the price I got this one for (CL find brand new with the sticker still on the fluke!), and its large enough to be a storm anchor for my boat's size/weight. If money were no object sure I'd have gotten an FX version, but I'm far from rich, hence the boat I have vs. the one I dream of. My FX23 is plenty of anchor for me, I bought this one just in case I ever have to anchor the boat out for a hurricane.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:53 PM   #24
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Eric-- Under typical conditions around here we use a 5:1 scope with all-chain rode. If it's forecast to get a little windy, particularly if there is enough fetch upwind to allow the buildup of waves, we'll let out to a 7:1 or even more. But we rarely have to use more than 5:1 although we'll sometimes use more than that to set the anchor and then move back in.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:41 PM   #25
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Five to one scope means you'll have a 1000' dia area to swing in when you anchor in 50' of water. The norn in Alaska and not far from it in Pudget Sound. That huge area will need to be free of rocks, shallows, other boats swinging and all other hazards ......... at low tide. And when the tide comes in your'e scope will be less.
For me now that I'm in Puget Sound crowded a anchorage's will take the place of small and deep so I still have real need for short scope performance. Many anchors are considerably better at short scope like the Manson Supreme, Danforth, Claw, XYZ, SARCA, Navy and others I'm sure.
Your Smith guy said to an anchor tester that one should anchor at 5-1 and then shorten up so even he didn't say his Rocna was above average at short scope or claim the test results to be wrong. If the Rocna actually had excellent performance at short scope one would think he of all people would defend his product. .... But he didn't.
If the wind dosn't blow chain will reduce swinging area dramatically but when the wind picks up it dosn't mater much.
I think we'd all be better off if we had anchors that performed well w no chain and at short scope. At less than screaming winds chain will then then increase performance even more.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:15 PM   #26
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Eric--- We've been anchoring our boat for 14 years in a variety of anchorages and bays from the San Juans to Desolation Sound, often in the company of quite a few other boats. Minimum scope has always been 5:1 and we have never had any issue with getting too close to other boats. For one thing, they all swing when we do. And in the anchorages where currents can be funny and point one boat this way and the next one that way, 5:1 has still never been a problem.

From talking to other boaters here from time to time about anchoring and what scope they use and so on, I always get the same answer. Minimum 5:1, use more if you need it. So I assume all the boats around us are using about the same amount of rode we are, and I have yet to see any sort of imminent problem.

Unless, of course, someone drags at which point it can get interesting or entertaining depending on how close you are to the dragging boat.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats
Five to one scope means you'll have a 1000' dia area to swing in when you anchor in 50' of water....
Eric, I think you mean 500' swing diameter or 250' radius.

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Old 07-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #28
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Gig of course. I need to get better at editing myself .... Then again someone is usually handy to pick up the ball.
I'm surprised Marin seemed to miss that.
Marin you're getting predictable.
That is a huge advantage for lots of chain in that it limits swinging to a nice little area but to some degree but it presents a problem when you anchor next to other boats using mostly line and all that scope you're talking about. And w much wind Marin your position could change several hundred feet in a very short period of time.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:46 PM   #29
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We do what works and apparently works for most of the other boaters around here. So now that we have resolved our unreliable anchor issue anchoring is just something we do, not something we analyze. So while I read the posts on the subject I'm not into the topic enough to check everyone's math. Besides, I'm no good at math so I get my dog to do it for me and he's not here right now.

But whether the swing diameter with 5:1 is 500 feet or 5 miles I don't really care because using 5:1 hasn't been a problem for us or any of the people we've anchored around who are presumably using the same sort of scope.

When we set the anchor we make sure that with our rode stretched out we aren't going to end up on rocks or in too-shallow water when the tide goes out. Most of the time the weight of the chain keeps us fairly close to the anchor itself but we still check out where we'd end up if the wind came up and took all the catenary out of the chain. And so far, 5:1 or greater has never posed a problem in this regard.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:32 PM   #30
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I've been looking at Fortress anchors locally and notice that the flukes are very sharp compared to all other Danforths I've seen. In my situation I should probably have one as it would be easier to handle being lighter and would hold in most all conditions. If it didn't set or if I felt it dragging over rocks or if it was going to blow I'd just use another anchor but most of the time anchoring would become a walk in the park. Not night and day but a really big load off my back. Something to consider as well as chain and the appropriate winch. Options Options Options .... Perhaps that's why anchoring is so full of way different opinions, philosophies and practices. Hardly ever is ther'e a post about dragging so everybody seems to be anchoring secure. And my short scope anchoring even worked in a 50+ knot gale. That night I definitely would have been at 7-1 if it hadn't been for the other two boats in the small anchorage. My rode is over 400' long. One nice thing about your ground tackle and methods Marin is that your'e always set for a worst case scenario. Of course I have the option to do the same too ... But I don't or haven't yet.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:14 PM   #31
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I've been looking at Fortress anchors locally and notice that the flukes are very sharp compared to all other Danforths I've seen. In my situation I should probably have one as it would be easier to handle being lighter and would hold in most all conditions. If it didn't set or if I felt it dragging over rocks or if it was going to blow I'd just use another anchor but most of the time anchoring would become a walk in the park. Not night and day but a really big load off my back. Something to consider as well as chain and the appropriate winch. Options Options Options .... Perhaps that's why anchoring is so full of way different opinions, philosophies and practices. Hardly ever is ther'e a post about dragging so everybody seems to be anchoring secure. And my short scope anchoring even worked in a 50+ knot gale. That night I definitely would have been at 7-1 if it hadn't been for the other two boats in the small anchorage. My rode is over 400' long. One nice thing about your ground tackle and methods Marin is that your'e always set for a worst case scenario. Of course I have the option to do the same too ... But I don't or haven't yet.
Hardly ever might be accurate...but enough people post or have posted about dragging. That's what creates the passion of so many that think their anchoring method/system/tackle is the right one...those that have drug and those who haven't are two very passionate camps...I doubt either is absolutely correct.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:17 PM   #32
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Eric-- We've never used our Fortress FX-23 as our main anchor yet although it's sized-- actually a bit oversized by the chart-- to be the boat's main anchor. As a stern anchor it's great because its light weight encourages you to use it.

But on one occasion we were using the Fortress off the stern and the wind switched so we were hanging on the Fortress rather than the mooring buoy. I'd set the Fortress by hand after rowing it out in the dinghy but it never budged even with a pretty good breeze coming from dead astern for a night and part of the next day.

So while we would not switch our Rocna for a Fortress, the Fortress is a great stern anchor/main anchor backup if you size it appropriately.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:22 AM   #33
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Eric-- We've never used our Fortress FX-23 as our main anchor yet although it's sized-- actually a bit oversized by the chart.
this is what most people don't get. Those charts are MINIMUM recommendations. If you are going to just be a day boater and will be awake at all times when anchored or only anchor in protected coves these would be fine, most of the time. I always go atleast 1 size over and really like two steps up if I have the room. and the lightness of the Fortress lines allow this even though this boat doesn't have a windlass.

And Manyboats, yes the "biting" points on the Fortress anchors (FX and Guardian alike) are very sharp. With the mudpalms installed they dig in and bite like no other anchor I've ever used. But they are very unforgiving if you allow those teeth to even gently bump gelcoat or varnish!!
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:08 PM   #34
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Twisted,
Those numbers are'nt even "minimum". Ther'e just numbers some manufacturer pulled out of his head as far as I know. The numbers may be of help for people that know absolutely nothing about anchoring boats. Many do make an attempt to qualify their numbers by more hypothetical numbers about displacement and wind speed. One would think if an anchor had double the performance of another anchor they could/should/would recommend a size half as large as the "other" anchor but I've seen no evidence of that. I anchored in a 50 knot gale once w a 13lb high performance anchor where a 30 to 40 lb anchor would usually be recommended. I've been trying/doing anchoring w high performance anchors so I could keep anchoring by hand and avoid the cost and weight penalty of winches and big anchors. I've earned a lot but am still not sure what is really necessary. I see here in LaConner lots and lots of boats w pitifully small anchors and I'm quite sure they only have them because somebody told them anchors were a safety item or ... "it came w the boat". A lot of boaters use anchors about as much as their fire extinguishers ... and have them in the same category.
As far as my own anchoring I may have been marginal in Alaska but here in Washington I feel quite well equiped.
The sharp edges on the Fortress are noth'in compared to the saw teeth on the sides of the flukes on an XYZ. See a pic on post #64 on the thread "Bye Bye XYZ". In a survival situation I could use my anchor for a saw.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:25 PM   #35
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how much sawing action does an anchor do?
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:32 PM   #36
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Perhaps...but fortress gives guidelines. below is from their site. Once again, I'd consider this minimum recommendations. Either way manufacturers have to give consumers a guide, and its not in their best interest (if a quality manufacturer) to give bad figures and garner a bad rep as poor quality or function. And my comment about sharpness was about the forward biting points, they are like chisels.

"Boat size recommendations are for boats of average windage and proportions in 30 knots of wind, average bottom conditions, and moderate protection from open seas. Remember that the loads in 42 knots of wind are twice as much as in 30 knots."
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #37
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how much sawing action does an anchor do?


Well, if you hung up on a submerged log pehaps you could power your boat all around so the anchor would saw through it and free itself.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #38
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I don't carry that much fuel!
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:20 PM   #39
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Well, if you hung up on a submerged log pehaps you could power your boat all around so the anchor would saw through it and free itself.

The only log sawing I wanna do at anchor is in my bunk knowing whatever anchor I used...I hope I did it right!
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:28 PM   #40
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Perhaps...but fortress gives guidelines. below is from their site. Once again, I'd consider this minimum recommendations. Either way manufacturers have to give consumers a guide, and its not in their best interest (if a quality manufacturer) to give bad figures and garner a bad rep as poor quality or function. And my comment about sharpness was about the forward biting points, they are like chisels.

"Boat size recommendations are for boats of average windage and proportions in 30 knots of wind, average bottom conditions, and moderate protection from open seas. Remember that the loads in 42 knots of wind are twice as much as in 30 knots."
The "recommended" anchor is what the anchor manufacturer recommends for an all around anchor. More than for day tripping and less than would possibly use for crusin". Even then 99 percent of the time I anchor out there's winds less than 30 knots anyway....if more...either I marina up or if I had to anchor...mabe break out a bigger anchor or double anchor or look for a better spot to anchor. So an all around anchor size is certainly a reasonable suggestion and neither requires a minimum or maximum label (unless you attach a bottom type and wind/swell table to it...well then you might as well throw in all the other variables too! )

Nothing wrong with that as no one can really recommend a storm anchor anyhow...too many variables and to do so would be foolish.
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