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Old 11-04-2014, 11:11 AM   #21
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The Vulcan did look familiar to me, design wise, and rather than an analog of the Spade/Ultra, I think it is closer to the Oceane also made by Spade. Spade has discontinued this anchor because it sucked from a performance standpoint. The reasons why it might not work were explained by (drum roll, please) - who else but Peter Smith and Rocna. Spade and Sword anchors (Rocna Knowledge Base)

These guys such charlatans. Even if they make a good product, you really have to wonder why they behave the way they do.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:48 AM   #22
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Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.
No it's not. It's about competition, and the size and complexity of the product doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if you decide to make jetliners or cardboard boxes, as soon as someone else decides to make jetliners or cardboard boxes, it becomes a competitive market. And you have to decide how information about your product can help or harm your ability to maintain, or gain, the edge in your market.

We have no idea of how Canadian Metals, which is a huge company with a large and diversified global product line, views information about its products. If they are like most big companies, they have a whole herd of lawyers who spend their days thinking about what might help or harm the company. And I can tell you from my own 35 years of communcations experience in a huge company with a big herd of lawyers, they almost always come down on the side of NO. In other words, don't say it, don't release it, don't talk about it, don't tell anybody.

Delfin seems to automatically assume that if a company doesn't reveal everything about their product they're trying to get away with something. And there's no question that this happens. But he, and the rest of us, know absolutely nothing about what goes on at Canadian Metals. To them, not revealing the exact specifications of the components of their products may be a company policy, a policy that's applied to all their products, not just anchors, for competitive reasons. We don't know.

The fact that the Rocna is doing very well in the market as you yourself have pointed out indicates that revealing the exact specification of the metal they use is not something they view as being important to this particular product's success. You may not like it, and Delfin may not like it, but as long as their product is successful and continues to hold its own or advance in the market against the competition, Canadian Metals is not going to care what you or Delfin happen to think.
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:07 PM   #23
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Delfin seems to automatically assume that if a company doesn't reveal everything about their product they're trying to get away with something. And there's no question that this happens. But he, and the rest of us, know absolutely nothing about what goes on at Canadian Metals. To them, not revealing the exact specifications of the components of their products may be a company policy, a policy that's applied to all their products, not just anchors. We don't know.
Hardly so. "Everything about their product" is not what was asked. I merely inquired what the strength of the shank was. Since Rocna has lied about this in the past, it seems a reasonable question. This is the equivalent of asking whether the tomatoes are organic or not. Answering that question doesn't reveal what fertilizer is used, whether they are hot house or field grown or anything else "proprietary". Not answering such a simple question is consistent with a company uncomfortable with the truth, so again, buyer beware.

If I ask Boeing how they make a complex wing I don't deserve an answer. If they want to sell me an airplane and I ask them if it will fly to 40,000 feet without imploding and their answer was "that's a secret", I'd buy Airbus. And until Rocna/CM starts acting like they don't have something to hide, my advice would be to buy from manufacturers who feel fine telling you whether the product you are purchasing meets some performance specification that exists on paper, not in the imagination of someone like Peter Smith.

The fact that they are doing well in the marketplace tells me they are doing well in the marketplace, and that there are lots of people who don't pay very close attention to the quality of what they buy. Big surprise.
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:21 PM   #24
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If I ask Boeing how they make a complex wing I don't deserve an answer. If they want to sell me an airplane and I ask them if it will fly to 40,000 feet without imploding and their answer was "that's a secret", I'd buy Airbus. And until Rocna/CM starts acting like they don't have something to hide, my advice would be to buy from manufacturers who feel fine telling you whether the product you are purchasing meets some performance specification that exists on paper, not in the imagination of someone like Peter Smith.

The fact that they are doing well in the marketplace tells me they are doing well in the marketplace, and that there are lots of people who don't pay very close attention to the quality of what they buy. Big surprise.
That's a reasonable position and one I would not disagree with. My reponse to Eric was to give a possible reason for why Canadian Metals has chosen not to disclose the exact specifications of the anchor.

As you say, given the past fiasco with Holdfast and the initial move of production to China, I would be wary of the quality of Rocna's current lineup today were I in the market for one. I would want to know the strength of the components in terms of what kind of metal and production processes were used. And if I was unable to obtain that information, there is a distinct possibility I would buy a different product even though I think Rocna's design is the best one as far as rollbar anchors are concerned. I would probably think very hard about having a Sarca shipped in.

But the Rocna continues to garner glowing customer testimonials-- I've mentioned the experience of the sailboat owners who share our finger dock who, when sailing in the Southwestern Pacific their Rocna 20 held in storms that had everyone else in the anchorage dragging--- and as long as that continues, the anchor will continue to sell well. As you say, probably 99 percent of boaters who buy anchors are not concerned wth details like the metallurgy that was used.

The CEO of Air Malta told me a number of years ago in an interview that "perception is 50 percent of everything." Today it's problably more like 75 percent. As long as the Rocna is perceived by the market as being a superior anchor, it will continue to sell well.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:04 PM   #25
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As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:05 PM   #26
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As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?
Yes to both.
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:03 PM   #27
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As a point of interest does any other anchor manufacturer give a lifetime warranty on their anchors, which begs the second question has Rocna ever have had to make good on the warranty?

Fortress, Mantus, Rocna, Ultra, and Anchor Right all offer a lifetime warrantee which includes bending.

The above companies will cover an anchor bent for any reason. The only usual requirement is that the anchor has to be suitable size for the boat and for some the original purchaser only.

Some, but not all, of the companies require the bent anchor is shipped back to the dealer, and the shipping costs from the dealer to you, which can be expensive, but it is still a generous offer and far better than those companies that exclude deformation.
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Old 11-04-2014, 09:43 PM   #28
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Canada Metal Products has a long and storied history. Its well spring is Cominco which was founded early in the last century. CMP are well beyond their 20th year of across the board ISO 9000 type compliance with numerous products big and small sold into the world marketplace. Having worked closely with some of their sister companies and executives it is hard to conceive that "tiny" Rocna would be able to force them to make a lack luster metal product.

CMP can spell and do metallurgy as related to castings, shapes, forgings, weldments and anodes. Best to fuss about will the Rocna supplant the other brands of similar if not identical anchors than question the capability of CMP. The Aussies may well have a fight on their hands especially in NA with low cost freight rates and simplified logistics.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:34 PM   #29
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Canada Metal Products has a long and storied history. Its well spring is Cominco which was founded early in the last century. CMP are well beyond their 20th year of across the board ISO 9000 type compliance with numerous products big and small sold into the world marketplace. Having worked closely with some of their sister companies and executives it is hard to conceive that "tiny" Rocna would be able to force them to make a lack luster metal product.

CMP can spell and do metallurgy as related to castings, shapes, forgings, weldments and anodes. Best to fuss about will the Rocna supplant the other brands of similar if not identical anchors than question the capability of CMP. The Aussies may well have a fight on their hands especially in NA with low cost freight rates and simplified logistics.
My comments did not challenge CMP's capabilities, but whether answering a question of what the shank strength is of one of their products with "it's a secret" is confidence building to possible purchasers. Michael Collins excellent book 'Built to Last' details lots of capable companies whose culture was such that honest dealings were not of particular importance. Zenith, Polaroid, Bell & Howell - these were all eminently capable companies whose culture doomed them to eventual insignificance. I have no clue whether that would be CMP's fate, but that doesn't make suggesting that their obfuscating answer to a simple question is a mark of a company culture that is incompatible with the one that drove Peter Smith's enterprise into trouble an unreasonable observation.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:50 PM   #30
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Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.
I don't think that's a long jump at all. I shoe horses... Rocket science right? And one farrier hides all of his "secrets" from everyone else in the trade locally. As small a market as there is for each design type, having knock off's (any number of them) would reduce your profits and the value of all the research you did getting it to market.

Not a long jump at all.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:00 PM   #31
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I don't think that's a long jump at all. I shoe horses... Rocket science right? And one farrier hides all of his "secrets" from everyone else in the trade locally. As small a market as there is for each design type, having knock off's (any number of them) would reduce your profits and the value of all the research you did getting it to market.

Not a long jump at all.
That's right. It's called 'commercial in confidence', and accepted world wide. I have no trouble with the concept, but that's why good products/tradesmen, whatever, give a guarantee. Because they are not about to divulge their specifications/formulae/recipes/techniques, etc, but are willing to back them.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:21 PM   #32
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That's right. It's called 'commercial in confidence', and accepted world wide. I have no trouble with the concept, but that's why good products/tradesmen, whatever, give a guarantee. Because they are not about to divulge their specifications/formulae/recipes/techniques, etc, but are willing to back them.
Which are divulged by virtually every other manufacturer of anchors in the market. I mean, all those who have not in the past lied about their specifications. The reason why CMP doesn't want to state what grade of steel they are using would seem to be transparent. It is because it is less robust than the competition. If it were stronger than the competition, do you think they would do the Kabuki dance when you ask them about it? Perhaps to protect the market share of the competition?? Really?
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:21 AM   #33
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I don't think that's a long jump at all. I shoe horses...
Derailing this thread a bit, I think that's very cool. I spent a lot of time as a kid and early teenager around horses, and I've used horses to hunt moose in BC. Well, the horses didn't hunt the moose but you know what I mean.

But I have a great affinity for them. Had I not gotten into flying and then added boating, I would most likely have acquired a couple of horses and gotten, with my wife, into horse camping and exploring in the PNW and BC. It's one of those things I'll lie on my deathbed wishing I'd done.

So I've watched farriers at work, and although I don't know a thing about the practices and techniques, I seemed pretty obvious to me that it's a real art and talent.

I envy your ongoing ability to work with these animals.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:48 AM   #34
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Too funny! I went to Bud Beaston's farrier college in Sperry, Oklahoma back in 1974/1975 where I learned to shoe horses. Shortly thereafter I got interested in flying and went out and got my private pilots license. Shortly after that I bought an airplane, a Cessna 170B, and enjoyed it for several years until I got smart and sold it to buy a house. Not much later I bought my first boat, actually it was my second boat, my first boat was a 12' Achillies inflatable I used for scuba diving off the coast of SoCal. The rest is history and I've owned several boats, albeit nothing over 30', almost all of my life since then.

Somewhat getting back on topic... I just returned from Doumen, China where I visited the Seahorse Marine shipyard and I learned that the two anchors that are supplied as a N/C option with my new boat purchase are similar in design to several of the name brand anchors available today. The one thing that I learned about the anchors supplied with my boat that concerns me is that they are made from mild steel and not hardened. That leads me to my question... Does anyone know, or could provide me with a link, about hardening an anchor, specifically what specs do I need to have it hardened to?
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:22 AM   #35
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Marin that's a big jump ......

Jetliners to small boat anchors.

I think I understood his point. Intellectual property is intellectual property...

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Old 11-05-2014, 10:11 AM   #36
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Too funny! I went to Bud Beaston's farrier college in Sperry, Oklahoma back in 1974/1975 where I learned to shoe horses. Shortly thereafter I got interested in flying and went out and got my private pilots license. Shortly after that I bought an airplane, a Cessna 170B, and enjoyed it for several years until I got smart and sold it to buy a house. Not much later I bought my first boat, actually it was my second boat, my first boat was a 12' Achillies inflatable I used for scuba diving off the coast of SoCal. The rest is history and I've owned several boats, albeit nothing over 30', almost all of my life since then.

Somewhat getting back on topic... I just returned from Doumen, China where I visited the Seahorse Marine shipyard and I learned that the two anchors that are supplied as a N/C option with my new boat purchase are similar in design to several of the name brand anchors available today. The one thing that I learned about the anchors supplied with my boat that concerns me is that they are made from mild steel and not hardened. That leads me to my question... Does anyone know, or could provide me with a link, about hardening an anchor, specifically what specs do I need to have it hardened to?
I don't think any anchor is hardened per se, but is made of of steel whose physical characteristics are appropriate for the design. Excel, Manson, Knox - all use shank steel with an MPa rating of 800+ so that the shank section can be thinner and present less resistance to getting the fluke set. This is why the idea that a manufacturer would pretend that this elementary bit of information is proprietary is so silly. The Super Sarca, for example has a mild steel shank, but it is thick enough that bending isn't apparently a problem. The Sarca Excel on the other hand, has a Bisalloy 80 shank that is far stronger but also thinner. The Ultra has a thin stainless hollow shank, but also has internal reinforcing to provide what they think is adequate strength. In all these cases, a lifetime warranty is offered, and none of these manufacturers have any problem telling you what steel they use to make their product. The flukes are rarely made of anything other than mild or stainless steel because making them out of something more robust (except for the toe) doesn't yield any benefit.

What is a bit different about the Rocna is that the former owners of the design lied to people about what steel they used, and it proved to be insufficient for the job. The new owners, one would think, would want to demonstrate that after purchasing this asset the public could count on them to produce a high quality product that met the specs advertised. Instead, they have apparently chosen to pretend that those specs are proprietary. The equivalent would be asking what horsepower a truck had and being told that was "intellectual property". Everything is intellectual property at some level, but only those with something to hide stretch that concept to avoid apples to apples comparisons with competitors. Maybe the shank of the new Rocna is the strongest on the market. Who knows? One thing is certain, if it is, Rocna isn't going to tell you why preferring the "trust us, we're professionals" approach to marketing.
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:33 AM   #37
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That sure sums it up Carl.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:46 PM   #38
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Asking what MPa an anchor shank steel has is not quite the same as asking for the ingredients in Coca Cola.
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Excel, Manson, Knox - all use shank steel with an MPa rating of 800+ so that the shank section can be thinner and present less resistance to getting the fluke set. This is why the idea that a manufacturer would pretend that this elementary bit of information is proprietary is so silly.

I can't tell exactly, but it might be that Parks didn't actually ask what the MPa rating is. They may have been willing to answer that question...

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Old 11-05-2014, 03:20 PM   #39
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I can't tell exactly, but it might be that Parks didn't actually ask what the MPa rating is. They may have been willing to answer that question...

-Chris
Perhaps, and they certainly should, but if you ask what the metallurgy is of the shank the expected answer to tell you what grade steel is used and that tells you the MPa. The term "High Tensile" refers to such a broad range of specifications as to be meaningless.
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:14 PM   #40
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Carl I think "high tensile" means it has carbon added to increase it's strength. And of course the amount of carbon (and other additives) determine the physical characteristics like hardness, strength and many other chacteristics. Usually every steel has a designation number like 4140 ect.

So getting that specification from Rocna tells a great deal. What kind of strength or other chacteristics the anchor has.
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