Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-14-2011, 07:16 PM   #1
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
New anchor buying decision

We've decided to invest in a new anchor.* We currently have a 176# Bruce/Claw but we can handle up to 275# or so without much trouble.* My reasoning on anchor selection is as follows:

1. While it is true that I am happy with the holding of my current anchor, I also know that happiness could dissipate pretty quickly at the worst possible time.* So, even though I don't need another boat expense, spending a fraction of what I pay for insurance to maximize the probability I don't need the insurance in the first place seems like a reasonable proposition.* The principal question then becomes what is a better anchor than what I've got?

2. My initial thinking was that the Rocna would be the best I could get.* But thanks to many of the posts on this forum, I reconsidered that conclusion and feel more comfortable going in a different direction.

3. The Excel anchor from SARCA in Australia, in the tests I have seen, has a very desirable characteristic, and that is a small environmental impact when used.* Off Port Townsend, areas have been closed off from anchoring to protect the eel grass - torn up by traditional anchors. My politics are slightly to the right of Attila the Hun, but I do not like the idea that my pasttime is trashing the beautiful spots I drop the hook.*

4. The company that makes the SARCA doesn't engage in the distortion of facts that I have seen from other manufacturer's representatives on this forum, which I personally find a real turn off.** Quality products sell themselves, and don't need bogus data or attacks on the competition to preserve market share.* Example of a quality product - Fortress, who produce an anchor that tests at the top of the pack in many conditions, and sells itself on that basis.* That's one of the reasons I carry one as a backup anchor.

5.* I find myself sold on the convex vs. concave argument.* Many of the new breed of anchors, like the Rocna, Spade, or Manson, are effectively scoops.* And scoops scoop, bringing up a lot of muck and mud that will take time to hose off.* This is a nuisance with my Bruce, but must be a real headache with a Rocna/Manson/Spade.*

6.* The Excel is manufactured with a Bismuth alloy shank and tip.* This is a very, very hard but flexible alloy, which won't snap under load like the high tensile shanks of the CQR, or the Rocna.* This is the downside of high tensile steel.* It has higher yield, but when it does yield, it snaps.* While not a problem with the Excel because of the characteristics of Bisalloy, if I had to choose between a mild steel shank that would bend or a high tensile shank that would snap, sign me up for a bent shank that saves my boat.

7.* The Excel is pretty.* Hoop anchors, including the Super SARCA and clones - not so much.* This is more a personal opinion on esthetics, but there you are.

8.* The Excel has excellent, best of breed holding.* While no anchor is perfect in all conditions, it does seem to test at the top in virtually all reputable tests of performance.* I exclude self-serving videos done by some manufacturers that are self-evidentally jiggered to favor their product from my definition of reputable tests.

10.* The Excel is made in Oz.* Many other anchors, like the Rocna, are manufactured in China.* I have nothing against outsourcing manufacturing and many fine products are made in China.* However, having been involved in production in China of products, I know that without extraordinary rigor in enforcing quality standards, quality may not be what you get.* Live there with them while they make it, no problem.* Contract someone to make it for you and live here, almost always a problem.* I would rather not find out about QC problems on my boat.

11.* The 125 kg Excel will fit in the same space as my 176# Bruce. *

Best environmentally, outstanding holding, pretty, first world manufacturing, all add up to the Excel being the best anchor for us.

Bottom line, for a fraction of a percentage of what it took to restore Delfin, I can't see skimping on what protects her in a gale.

One big disadvantage of the Excel or Super SARCA is that you have to ship the darn thing from Australia.* If anyone is interested in pooling an order for an anchor from these folks, let me know.* Maybe we can save some freight together.
__________________
Advertisement

Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:15 PM   #2
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
New anchor buying decision

Based on the shipping costs from the southwestern Pacific that were in place when we were talking to Rocna about one of their anchors, shipping anything over about 20 pounds can cost in excess of the value of the item you are shipping. This was one reason Rocna had just begun manufacturing their anchors in a second plant in Vancouver, BC, which is where we got ours.

At that time--- this was some five years ago or more-- the shipping cost for a Rocna 20 (44#) from New Zealand would have come close to or exceeded the purchase price of the anchor. I have no idea how shipping prices stack up today.

While you have made your choice and I see no reason for you to change it, I will say that for myself, I would never let the "ethics" of a manufacturer's advertising or promotional campaign prevent me from buying their product if I felt their product was the best thing for what I needed it to do. But then I've been working in the advertising and marketing world my whole life, so I take all the hype with a grain of salt. Hell, I help produce it, so perhaps I've learned to totally ignore it when making the final decision on what to buy, be it a TV, car, smartphone, or anchor.

In the case of an anchor, my boat's going to stay attached to the bottom by virtue of the anchor's design and manufacturing quality, not because the owner of the company tried to make a competitor look bad by conducting a test in such a way that the competitive product didn't perform as well as his own product. I may not agree with his promotional tactics, but if I think he makes the best anchor for my needs, that's what I'm gonna buy. His ethics are his problem, not mine



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 14th of February 2011 09:23:16 PM
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:19 PM   #3
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: New anchor buying decision

Fair points, Marin.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:57 PM   #4
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
RE: New anchor buying decision

I think you summed the situation up very well Delfin, and if I was you, buying an anchor for a boat your size, I would make exactly the same decision. All I can say on the shipping front is I did call Rex Frances of Sarca, and had a good chat about this very supply issue, and he assures me he is doing his best to line up a US manufacturer/distributor even as we speak. I can say no more, however, if you are not in too much of a hurry, so we are not talking air freight, I doubt the cost would be as bad as Marin suggests.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:57 PM   #5
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,709
RE: New anchor buying decision

Remember that lizard in Jurassic Park? The one that flared out and made that awful sound**** ...kinda like the Arabian women to in demonstrations that sounds worse than a french ambulance? The lizard and those sounds have an effect on me that's not unlike the effect the Rocna Smiths have on me.
Carl,
I don't see how you can go wrong w the SARCA's. In Peter Smiths video w the wildly different draw speeds I was VERY impressed w how FAST the SARCA dug in as soon as it got turned around. I'm amazed at the extreme differences in performance from anchors that look almost identical. I have 3 steel Danforths but I've only used one mostly because the one I use works perfectly always. It's held us in 30 knot wind overnight but 50 knot stuff isn't rare at all up here so my anchor evolution goes on. Must be nice to solve the anchor dilemma so easily. TWO thumbs up
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #6
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: New anchor buying decision

Thanks Peter and Eric.* One of the things I liked about the SARCA was their testing.* I know that there may be differences with beach testing vs. wet testing and so on, but the idea of dragging two (or three) anchors behind a balance bar seems like it provides a good apples to apples test.* There may be other conditions where the result is different, but at least in the example as tested, you know which anchor is superior.* I really don't see how such a test can be fudged.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 10:22 PM   #7
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,709
RE: New anchor buying decision

Carl,As Marin pointed out they can show you the bar and allow you to draw conclusions about what the anchors are doing. Also I think dry sand testing is'nt quite apples and apples and very important to me there's no scope involved. But even on a dry beach an anchor that works best probably will work best under water too * * *...probably * *..I think??? Perhaps it favors one brand while in the water the other may be better out of the water. I like tests from the deck of a boat at various scopes on a consistent bottom. Think about who pays for these tests and a much better "scope" on anchors can be had by reading 4 or 5 tests. I think the Fortress has won all the tests it's ever entered and other anchors do very well all or almost all the time. And others never seem to make a positive showing. If you're interested in anchortology read those hyperlinks I put on the other thread.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:33 AM   #8
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
RE: New anchor buying decision

One of the things which came out of my call to Rex Frances was he is going to see if he can put the whole video on the website of the anchor tests using that yellow machine and the drag bar and in shallow water so the conditions are comparable. I was given a copy of it when I was talking to him at a boat show, and it is extremely interesting, and very informative. Much more comprehensive than what can be seen in the short version on the website at present, and clearly impartial. The only reason they did not put the whole thing up there was they thought it might turn people off by its length and detail. However, as we know, real boaters want detail...right...?
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:54 AM   #9
Guru
 
Tidahapah's Avatar
 
City: Mooloolaba
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Tidahapah
Vessel Model: Bert Ellis Timber motor cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,779
RE: New anchor buying decision

Carl,
When you decide to buy and they have not started production on your side of the pond I will bring it over to you as excess baggage.
PS I only travel business at the least.

It would be good if Rex decides to start production over Stateside

Benn
Tidahapah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:57 AM   #10
Hospitality Officer
 
Andy G's Avatar
 
City: Pittwater
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Sarawana
Vessel Model: IG 36 Quad Cabin
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,557
RE: New anchor buying decision

Details,well yes Peter, but I don't want to be swamped(sorry) by details.What I really want is someone to tell me that given the conditions I use my boat in, with consideration to the size of the boat, what are say the best 3 anchors I should be looking at.

At present I have a 45lb plough anchor, a pretty standard piece of equipment when I look at other boats, that has never let me down, however having being woken up at 3.00am in a howling wind a couple of times I am open to suggestions. I just don't have the experience or technical know how to really understand the ins & outs of anchor technology. It's like which is the best car the Ferrari, Lamborghini or Porsche. Who knows? they're all great(actually it's the 1968 246 Dino Ferrari targa, my boyhood dream)
Andy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 04:18 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: New anchor buying decision

Danforth 190 HT. or next size up.

60 years of proven results rather than some add guys blither. And rigged "tests".
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 04:41 AM   #12
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
RE: New anchor buying decision

Ah, c'mon FF, get into the 21st century. Old is not best forever, just till something newer comes along which proves better, and that time takes longer for some things than others, (think of how long it took to go from vinyl to CD, VHS to DVD to Blue Ray), but even for anchors, that time has come.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 06:00 AM   #13
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
RE: New anchor buying decision

Quote:
Peter B wrote:Ah, c'mon FF, get into the 21st century. Old is not best forever, just till something newer comes along which proves better, and that time takes longer for some things than others, (think of how long it took to go from vinyl to CD, VHS to DVD to Blue Ray), but even for anchors, that time has come.
I think*FF has a couple of 8 tracks still in use.

*
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 08:19 AM   #14
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,709
RE: New anchor buying decision

I brought my Danforth home to weigh it and noticed it has the cheap single flanged flukes made by bending a piece of sheet metal but a forged shank. It weighs in at 14lbs. This is the one that works so well. FF recommended "Danforth 190 HT. or next size up." for an anchor. I've been under the assumption that Danforth has'nt made an anchor for years and the reason you can buy a "Danforth" is because W Marine made some drawings of an old genuine Danforth, sent them out to various fabricators for manufacture and put them in their product line. Lots of others have made Danforth copies and I was under the impression the real Danforth anchor had a forged shank AND "T" shaped forged flukes as well. Does anybody know the real story behind Danforth anchors made in the recent past?
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 12:39 PM   #15
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
New anchor buying decision

Quote:
shrimp wrote:

What I really want is someone to tell me that given the conditions I use my boat in
Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever going to happen.* Oh, you'll get plenty of people telling you what the best three anchors would be but this would be based on their own experience, opinion, or theory, and each person's list will be somewhat different.

This is exactly the dilemma we faced when we finally realized the Bruce was great for oil rigs but crap for little boats like ours.* So what to replace it with?

Looking around our marina to see what everyone else was using we decided was a flawed method, because that's how we'd arrived at the decision to buy a Bruce in the first place.* The two most popular anchors in the PNW are the Bruce and the CQR.* We'd learned the hard way the Bruce is (in our opinion) a non-scaleable design, and neither one of us care for the design or principle of the CQR.* Add to this that probably some 90 percent of the boats in our marina never actually use their anchors but bought what everybody else had, and this made the "buy what the people around you have" theory even more invalid to us.

So we started reading articles and looking at tests and manufacturers websites.* At that time we hadn't even heard of the new-generation anchors like the Manson, Rocna, SuperMax, etc.* Once we had, the Rocna stood out from all the rest for lots of reasons so that's what we got.

So in my opinion, the only way to get the right answer to what you want is to do the same thing.* Start researching anchors, look at tests, and pay the closest attention to the independent reviews and owner testimonials.* You may well end up deciding the best anchor for your needs is not like anything anyone else around you has.* When we bought our Rocna I suspect it was the only one in our 2000 boat marina, not that I walked all the docks looking.* A couple of years later one appeared on the 50' Nordhavn near us, then a sailboat one dock over, and so it goes.

The suggestions you'll get or have gotten will provide a good starting point for your research, but I think you've got to figure this one out on your own.* We followed the pack and ended up with an anchor that was a disappointment in almost every way.* That anchor today is doing a marvelous job of propping open a door, and we have moved on to a design that makes a whole lot more sense and has (so far) a much better track record.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 15th of February 2011 02:07:33 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 12:45 PM   #16
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
RE: New anchor buying decision

I'd rather make a mistake*from my own choice rather than copying someone else's mistake.
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 01:40 PM   #17
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,709
RE: New anchor buying decision

Mark,
I think that's what Marin said**** .....He copied the "mistake" of others*** ....found it didn't work and then got down to business and did his own research, made his own decision, went w that all has been well since.

Marin,
I'm sorry to say this but I think I've heard this Stupid expression "next generation" this and next generation that more than enough times. I also think think your buddy Smith started it. Why can't you just say "we hadn't even heard of the newer anchors like" ect ect. A writer like yourself should'nt be dependant on cliches.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 02:07 PM   #18
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: New anchor buying decision

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
I'm sorry to say this but I think I've heard this Stupid expression "next generation" this and next generation that more than enough times. I also think think your buddy Smith started it.
I think "Next Generation" is a valid description to differentiate a newer product from an older one.* The complete name of the current version of the 737 is "737NG" for Next Generation.* (A bit unfortunate as NG can also stand for No Good So we usually say or write "NextGen 737".)

Believe it or not, I didn't know until fairly recently that the "G" in 2G, 3G, 4G, etc in wireless technology stands for "generation."

I have no idea where it started with regards to anchors.* I rather doubt it was Peter Smith or any of the anchor manufacturers themselves.* I suspect it was coined by some magazine writer who was charged with doing an article about the new developments in anchors.* The media is usually responsible for stuff like this.* The Boeing Model 299 was given the name "Flying Fortress" by an overly-enthusiastic newspaper reporter who witnessed the first flight of the plane in the 1930s.

But I have no problem with the terms "next-generation" or "new-generation."* In anchors there do seem to be two groupings.* The stuff that's been around forever--- Danforth, Bruce, CQR, Navy, Fisherman's, etc.--- and the new developments-- BŁgel, Rocna, Sarca, Manson, SuperMax, XYZ, and so on.

Maybe if your anchor experiments pay off and you come up with a new design that proves to work better than anything else to date some magazine writer will review it and dub it the "third generation" of anchors.* The "Thorne Bay 3G" anchor.*



*
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 06:15 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Larry H's Avatar
 
City: Pacific Northwest
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Jacari Maru
Vessel Model: 2014 Ranger Tug R-27
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 359
RE: New anchor buying decision

A google search show that Danforths are still being made and in the USA.

Link: http://www.danforthanchors.com/

Larry H
Larry H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 08:49 PM   #20
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,709
RE: New anchor buying decision

Larry H,
I looked at that web site and think the anchor they called "deepset II" was on at least one of the anchor tests that I posted on the last anchor thread. It looks superior to my Danforth yet fell flat on it's flukes in the test. My 14lb Danforth works superbly well up and including 30+ knots overnight on an 8 ton boat. I feel like if I got a 25lb version of my Danforth I could hang safely at 55 knots. These anchor tests seem to be misrepresenting traditional anchors capability in the extreme. The newer anchors are better to be sure but they aren't perfect anchors however they perform numerically at levels twenty times as strong as Danforths and Bruces. I just don't believe the difference is anywhere near that great. Do the rest of you on this forum actually believe these newer anchors are 20 times as good as the old?
__________________

Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
buying a trawler edbulmer General Discussion 51 06-01-2015 10:33 AM
Buying decision, Turbo or Not ? Mappy Californian 12 02-25-2011 03:22 PM
Buying our first trawler jtflyn Power Systems 37 11-03-2010 07:34 AM
Buying a used trawler Dimview Power Systems 14 09-13-2010 04:39 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012