Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-31-2012, 08:35 PM   #1
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
The Modified XYZ Anchor.

The nose piece is just mild steel so that makes this a proof-of-concept offering but I'm ready to try it and will have it aboard. The grey color is from an aerosol can of spray-on galvanize. Perhaps it will keep my deck (where the anchor is (flush like an old Danforth)) from getting brown from rust. If I like it I'll make another nose piece from 4140 steel and have it hot dipped galvanized.

I've never seen an anchor that didn't have pointed flukes but I think this thing will work. If the anchor lies flat on the bottom the nose piece will be like a chisel and I've used countersunk flat head screws instead of the regular allen (socket head) cap screws that came w it. This should insure that the chisel end of the fluke lies flat and flush w the bottom w a shallow angle of attack. I suspect that on rocky bottoms setting may not take place. But if the anchor lays on it's side the edge of the front of the fluke should penetrate easily. Note the 2nd picture. Sand and mud should not be a challenge any way it lands.

For the rocks I've got 3 other anchors that should pick up the slack and the way I've got things set up I can swap and switch easily. We'll see.

I've tried to post the 2nd picture several times. You'll just have to imagine the anchor on it's side.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF0261.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	106.8 KB
ID:	11571  
__________________
Advertisement

Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:15 PM   #2
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Looks to me like you've created an anchor with more resistance to penetrating the bottom than the original. I suspect there's a really good reason why anchors for the last few centuries have used pointed flukes instead of squared-off chisel-blade flukes regardless of the rest of their designs.

Which takes less force, pushing the length of a knife blade down into a block of cheese or pushing the the point of the blade into the cheese? This is one case where I think your armchair theory is going to let you down.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 12:02 AM   #3
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
No argument here Marin. Your'e words make sense.

And I promise I'll let you know if it dos'nt work. Actually if I put the anchor down and back over it forcing it to set on it's side I am quite sure it will set good. But I'm not so sure it will bury itself right side up. I'll find out though.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 12:54 AM   #4
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Why don't you put a roll bar on it? That will force it to lie on its side every time no matter how it lands.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:56 AM   #5
Guru
 
Anode's Avatar


 
City: Missourah
Country: USA
Vessel Name: M/V Scout
Vessel Model: Sundowner Tug 30'
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 645
You're going to embarrass Willy if you hang that thing on the bow.
__________________
Chip

Deliveries & Yacht Services
www.captainchip.com
Anode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 12:32 PM   #6
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
No worry Chip. The "thing" is flush on the deck like a Danforth.

Marin, No it won't. It will force it to lie on it's side OR sit up straight. The roll bar will not keep it from sitting right side up.

The "hoop" on the Sarca seems to force it to sit right side up and even keeps it from laying on it's side. I'm almost certain that will be my next anchor. You should see the Anchor Right video. There's still time for me to send it to you.

The "mast" on the XYZ keeps it from laying upside down after it is dragged along a bit. Not to fear though if things go to far south I've got a trusty Claw aboard not to mention the Dreadnought and an additional rode.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 01:18 PM   #7
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
No worry Chip. The "thing" is flush on the deck like a Danforth.



The "hoop" on the Sarca seems to force it to sit right side up and even keeps it from laying on it's side.
If that's what it really does then cross the Sarca off my list of recommended anchors. The whole point of the rollbar concept is to force the anchor to ALWAYS end up on its side no matter how it lands on the bottom. This enables the fluke to slice down into the bottom like a knife blade when you pull on the rode which is what makes these anchors--- at least the Rocna, Manson, and Bugel--- set so fast and so positively.

If the anchor does not end up on its side the whole "slice down into the bottom" concept doesn't work and all you have is another anchor that's dependent on sliding along the bottom in the hopes that the fluke will catch and dig in.

The rollbar and the resulting consistent positioning on its side is what attracted us to the Rocna as it makes it what I've called a "pro-active" anchor as opposed to a passive "drag it along and hope it sets" anchor.

In the videos of the Rocna you will see that the anchor always ends up on its side no matter how it hits the bottom. The weight of the rollbar helps tip the anchor onto its side at which point the rollbar prevents the anchor from tipping over any farther. And as soon as you start pulling on the rode that sideways vertical fluke pivots on the skid plate and the end of the rollbar and knifes sideways down in to the bottom. The point-of-the-knife-into-the-cheese analogy.

If the Sarca doesn't do this and is simply positioned every time with its flat fluke sitting on the bottom like a sled, then it's just another passive "drag and hope" anchor like CQR, Danforth, Bruce, etc. In which case it's about the last anchor I'd want since the odds of that single sled-like fluke digging in as it slides across the bottom are considerably reduced.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 01:46 PM   #8
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
Watch the video Marin.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 02:36 PM   #9
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
I did. In fact I just watched all the Super Sarca videos on the Sarca site. They are doing some judicious editing here. In every video, they start their demonstrations or tests with the anchor already rightside up and with the end of the fluke already dug into the bottom. So all you see in the video is the digging-in part of the set.

There is only one video in which at the beginning of one scene you get a quick glimpse of the anchor flipping from its side--- which is where the rollbar positions it just like a Rocna or Manson--- to the rightside up position as the fluke, which has started to slice down into the bottom turns the anchor upright.

Why Sarca doesn't make any effort to point out in their videos WHY their anchor sets so fast the way Rocna does in their video using animation and real footage is something I don't know. But they have edited out that on-its-side starting position from every scene of the anchor setting except in the one scene I mentioned.

Were I a potential anchor customer, I would be drawn to the Rocna over the Sarca if for no other reason than Sarca does such a poor job in their videos of explaining how their anchor actually works. They do a good job of demonstrating what happens with their anchor once it starts to dig in, but they have missed--- in my opinion as a film producer--- a great opportunity to really convince people exactly why their anchor works so well. In addition to independent user testimonials from all over the world, a major factor in our decision to buy a Rocna was their excellent video which explains and shows exactly how and why their anchor works so well.

The Sarca Excel is, of course, a different animal altogether and has a different setting action than the rollbar-equipped Super Sarca.

Bottom line--- I was not at all impressed with Anchor Right's Super Sarca videos because I learned nothing about how they work. I didn't bother watching the Excel videos because that anchor is based on the same principle as the CQR which to my way of thinking is a less-than-desirable design.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 03:03 PM   #10
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
I suspect the video I have is not on their web site but I'm not sure. Hav'nt got time to check it out now. Gotta get back down to the boat and get more stuff done.

One thing I'm convinced of is that to set it's far better to be right side up w the Sarca but w the Supreme and Rocna it's better to be on their sides. In the video I see the Sarca's stand up almost instantly and at least several times they start out on their sides. The Rocna won't hold well at short scope and won't set at short scope because the shank will be picked up and it will be right side up. Loose loose.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 04:56 PM   #11
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
The Rocna won't hold well at short scope and won't set at short scope because the shank will be picked up and it will be right side up. Loose loose.
Your theory runs counter to users' experience . I'm going to go with experience over theory. No anchor does well on a super short scope but some do a little better than others.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 10:14 PM   #12
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I suspect the video I have is not on their web site but I'm not sure. Hav'nt got time to check it out now. Gotta get back down to the boat and get more stuff .
They say the videos on their website are from their new DVD. Whether they are the same ones that are on the DVD you have I don't know.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 10:46 PM   #13
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
The Rocna short scope issue I mentioned was from anchor tests at 3-1. More than one test mentioned it.

And the setting short scope thoughts were my own armchair theory only.

Usable 2-1 performance was the original thing that attracted me to the XYZ.

I think we're leaving Sunday AM. I'll have pictures and stories to tell when I get down but probably not enough time as we need to make another trip north and then another in the fall. Look and chat stuff for winter.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 11:09 PM   #14
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Well have a great trip south. I envy you getting to boat through that country. We've only flown through it so far but are looking forward to the day when we can take off in the boat for a few months and go north.

We may or many not be off to China on Monday depending on everyone's ability to deal with the latest obstacle Chinese customs has come up with. But if we go it will be two weeks there followed immediately by two weeks of halibut fishing up the north end of Vancouver Island.

So be careful, have a great time, and don't let your bargeload of anchors get you in trouble.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 11:34 PM   #15
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
If that's what it really does then cross the Sarca off my list of recommended anchors. The whole point of the rollbar concept is to force the anchor to ALWAYS end up on its side no matter how it lands on the bottom. This enables the fluke to slice down into the bottom like a knife blade when you pull on the rode which is what makes these anchors--- at least the Rocna, Manson, and Bugel--- set so fast and so positively.
The rollbar and the resulting consistent positioning on its side is what attracted us to the Rocna as it makes it what I've called a "pro-active" anchor as opposed to a passive "drag it along and hope it sets" anchor.
Relax Marin (and Eric), the Sarcas roll-bar does exactly what the Rocnas and others do, it is just that it does it so quick, it is a bit hard to catch it in the act, so to speak, but yes, initially and briefly as in Marin's post....
"the anchor always ends up on its side no matter how it hits the bottom. The weight of the roll-bar helps tip the anchor onto its side at which point the roll-bar prevents the anchor from tipping over any farther. And as soon as you start pulling on the rode that sideways vertical fluke pivots on the skid plate and the end of the roll-bar and knifes sideways down in to the bottom. The point-of-the-knife-into-the-cheese analogy."
however in doing so, it so quickly moves to a vertical position after the tip of the fluke engages the bottom it is all like one continuous action from edge knifing in...to tip engagement...to whole fluke burying, so it almost looks like it is actually landing on the tip - but it doesn't - not possible in fact.
The video footage on their website is an edited down version for the sake of brevity, which would make that even harder to spot.
I hope that clears that up. I had this exact discussion with Rex of Sarca over a coffee just the other day at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show. There is no attempt to disguise anything from trick editing I assure you. I have a copy of the full video.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 12:05 AM   #16
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
I wan't implying the editing was trying to fool anyone, just that they cut into their scenes after the important visual of the anchor ending up on its side and then knifing in and rolling to an upright position. Bad edit decision as far as I'm concerned because it leaves out what to me is one of the major selling points of the anchor, its "pro-active" action to set.

Next time you see Rex you might pass that on. I think Anchor Right is doing themselves a disservice by not including a video or animation (or both which is what Rocna did in their video years ago) explaining and showing how the Super Sarca works all the way thorugh the process, from landing on the bottom to final deep set.

To me it was the most intriguing thing about the rollbar anchor and Rocna's website video is what promted us to start reading user testimonials about their anchor and then call them in NZ to talk about it The end result was a sale.

All the other anchors just drag along and maybe they dig in and maybe they don't. The rollbar anchors--- all of them---- take an entirely different approach in that their design forces them to penetrate the bottom in the most effective way possible, like a knife blade slicing downward. Brilliant design, whoever came up with it (the Bugel folks, I suppose).

Anyway, from the point of view of a film producer, I think Rex could help himself and his company a lot by reworking their videos or making a new one that clearly explains the superior setting action of a rollbar anchor.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 12:10 AM   #17
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
I think we're leaving Sunday AM. I'll have pictures and stories to tell when I get down but probably not enough time as we need to make another trip north and then another in the fall. Look and chat stuff for winter.
Eric, I wonder for the benefit of those of us not familiar with the geography of your part of the world, apart from in a general sense, if you could post some info re where you are now, and leaving from, and where you are heading for, and what stop-offs you think you will do, so we can look it up on the charts etc. And bon voyage and safe traveling.
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 12:18 AM   #18
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Marin wrote...
Anyway, from the point of view of a film producer, I think Rex could help himself and his company a lot by reworking their videos or making a new one that clearly explains the superior setting action of a rollbar anchor.

Point noted Marin, and I'll pass it along to Rex.
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 12:31 AM   #19
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Peter--- Find Thorne Bay on a SE Alaska map or chart. It's northwest of Ketchikan. From there the Inside Passage goes south (it's really east but that confuses the hell out of everyone so it's easier to say south) past Ketchikan, along the BC coast across Dixon Entrance to Prince Rupert. From Prince Rupert the Passage goes southeast past the mouth of the Skeena River to the top of the first of two long narrow passages between the mainland and its eastern islands and the western islands that lie between the Passage and the Pacific. The two long channels are Grenville Channel at the north and Princess Royal Channel to the south.

From the lower entrance to Princess Royal channel you work your way down through some islands to the First Nations town of Bella Bella or the "white" settlement of Shearwater. Then it's down through Hakai Passage to the bottom of Calvert Island. At that point you have to go "outside" around the unprotected headland of Cape Caution. Full fury of the Pacific and all of that.

Once you get round that you're in Queen Charlotte Strait. You can skirt through the islands on the mainland side or cross the Strait to Port Hardy, then south to the top of Johnstone Strait. You can go down Johnstone which can have some serious winds that make life tough or thread through the islands to the east. Either way, you end up at Campbell River on Vancouver Island or in Desolation Sound to the east. Both are at the top of the Strait of Georgia which separates the lower half of Vancouver Island from the mainland.

From there you can run down the east shore of the island through the Strait of Georgia to Nanaimo or you can run down the mainland shore on the other side of the Strait of Georgia past Powell River and Texada Island to Pender Harbor. At that point most people go down to the bottom of Texada and cross over to the west to Nanaimo or Silva Bay at the top of the Gulf Islands. We prefer to run from near Campell River down the east shore of Vancouver Island to Comox, and then make the next long run from Comox to Nanaimo. Shorter than the mainland side but you have to watch the weather because there are precious few places between Campbell River and Nanaimo to duck for safety if the winds kick up.

Thread your way from Nanaimo down through the Gulf Islands, then cross Boundary Pass over to the San Juan Islands on the US side of the border, thread your way through those to Anacortes. La Conner, Eric's final destination, is just south of La Conner on the Swinomish Channel.

That's more or less how we fly the Passage coming home from SE Alaska. Eric may be taking detours along the way but that's the basic route.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 01:19 AM   #20
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Thanks, I'll look that up. Sounds interesting - and challenging - but could be a real buzz. I guess he'll be doing it in easy stages, sort of anchorage-hopping.
__________________

Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012