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Old 09-09-2015, 07:34 AM   #21
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I'm not ready yet to supply my eventually detailed report on Fortress FX 23 anchor's overall setting, holding, and break free capabilities in SF Delta's extremely soft mud bottom [haven't used it anchoring enough times since my spring 2015 FX 23 purchase]...

But, I will say this: So far its actions for setting and holding and breaking free have been stellar overall. It is proving to quickly set-into and to continue further digging-into the soft mud. By far outperforms big, heavy (35 to 40 lb) Danforths.

FX 23 is one size bigger than recommended for our substantial windage, 22K lb loaded, 34' Tollycraft tri cabin. I believe in always using the next size up for anchors. With FX 23's lightweight the aspect of handling that anchor is a breeze.

FYI: I have the FX 23 fashioned with Fortress mud palms installed and its shank set at largest angle offered to its flukes.

Happy Anchoring Daze! - Art
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
Since my boat's design does not share the same overall profile of the average production trawler (which the charts are based on), I had sent technical information, calculations and load estimates to various mfg.'s. Chose three similar designs so that the comparison would be "apples to apples" as Manyboats was stating.

One came back with what I believe is an accurate recommendation. The other two were so incredibly, blatantly wrong that I laughed out loud and scared my cat.

Anchor discussions are always hot and my intention is not to start a pissing contest. But the wonderful purpose of forums is to share information from a variety of sources.

Of course it'd be interesting hearing the "who shot John?" that you got back from the manufacturers....

Also, you could try a fun "contest" (of sorts) here: describe the boat, and then let us all recommend anchors of various weights and styles.

I'm sure you'd get consensus eventually.



Hmmm.... maybe not!

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Old 09-09-2015, 07:42 AM   #23
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Marty,
You really think anchor dragging is common? Don't think it's common in the PNW. But you're right if it is .. bigger is certianly better. Think I'll try my 15lb Manson Supreme w/o the roll bar this weekend. Only setting will be tested as wind is to be less than 10 knots. I could try and turn it up side down though.

Not uncommon around here. Usually two main causes: undersized anchor, or non-existent technique.

The former is usually a very small Delta, too small for the boat weight and/or windage. Usually looks as if it came with the boat, when delivered new. (We've had OK success with a Delta in the past, except for particularly slimy areas or when completely overloaded, so I'm not knocking the design, here.)

The technique thing is usually one of two options: 1) drop the anchor 'til it touches the sea bed, get a beer, or 2) drop the anchor and throttle up to wide open in reverse until just before grounding.

Other antics sometimes, especially in a particularly oozy area, where the anchor isn't well-suited to actual slime. Usually folks who have a clue seem to be able to figure that out (try a different area) quickly enough.

-Chris
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:49 AM   #24
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I go the opposite way. I look at the manufacturer's recommendation and I buy the next size up, based on experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
FX 23 is one size bigger than recommended for our substantial windage, 22K lb loaded, 34' Tollycraft tri cabin. I believe in always using the next size up for anchors. With FX 23's lightweight the aspect of handling that anchor is a breeze.

Seems to me, many manufacturers say their table is for boats with given length and/or displacement and with a "typical" (or "normal?" whatever) windage profile? And during typical weather conditions, i.e., not tropical storms or hurricanes and so forth.

If so, it certainly seems reasonable to upsize based on whatever factors seem relevant to a specific boat/situation. And we've usually done that too (and we do have some extra windage issues).

Interestingly, the SuperMax folks have said their table has already taken all that into account: they consider theirs to be storm anchors for the recommendations in their table. (My paraphrase; pardon if I got it slightly wrong.)

-Chris
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:50 AM   #25
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As Chris alludes to in post 23... anchoring technique is at times considerably more important than anchor size or style.


"It ain't the meat it's the motion... that makes my anchor want to set"!
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:46 AM   #26
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Sure the new guy is touting his miracle at $50 a pound as the cure for anything, BUT the standards are still being made and still work just fine.
Good point. Let's say that the old-fashioned anchor needs to weigh 50% more than a new breed of high performance anchor but the price is 1/7th, then that is perhaps a good solution as long as the extra weight is not an issue.

In my case it gets extremely expensive (shipping, duties, greasing palms) importing anything to my ship builder, so the more materials and gear that we can source locally, the better.

Tough arguments both ways - why can't life be easy
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:57 AM   #27
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Of course it'd be interesting hearing the "who shot John?" that you got back from the manufacturers....
The three anchors of discussion were the Rocna original, Sarca Excel and the Manson Supreme. Rocna is the one that seemed most reasonable and accurate in recommending a weight. I have gone back a second time to the others trying to "force" a more educated answer out of them as well.

Quote:
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You could try a fun "contest" (of sorts) here: describe the boat, and then let us all recommend anchors of various weights and styles.
Great idea and I would love the feedback and to compare against what is going through my thick skull:

Dims: 50ft x 16.5ft x 6ft
Displ: 56 long tons
Windage: Very low windage compared to similar Nordy, Krogen, Bering, etc.
Sizing: Force 11 winds of 60 knots;
Load: Calculations indicate the wind plus surge load to be 14,000 pounds;
Style: I have not necessarily decided on one of the three aforementioned anchors, just a starting point;
Winch/Rode: Undecided, either all chain or a deck drum winch with chain leader and wire rope.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:46 AM   #28
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OK, I'll start... with a detour or two.

First, you might have a look at the Ultra anchors, which are apparently made in Turkey and might be "source-able" where you are. Not a recommendation, just an observation.

Second, you might consider keeping two anchors on the bow, different styles so you can go with the flow if substrate demands.

Third, and if you DO mount two anchors, I'd suggest the second be a Fortress, probably at least an FX-55 and maybe even an FX-85. (I think I'd still have to actually eyeball your superstructure and so forth to decide which size, if it were me. And even then, it would also take some insight into your mounting set-up...). If you intend storm-capable anchors permanently mounted, the FX-85 would perhaps be the better choice... if it would mount properly.


FWIW, I know I took a hard right turn there... but it happens I've had experience with Fortress, so felt like I could comment. No experience with those other brands/models, so you'd get better info from others here who know more about how they actually work -- without regard to whatever the manufacturers' tables say.


I could also hum a few bars about SuperMax too, but haven't a clue whether you'd even be able to get one there... so probably no sense going there, at least for the time being.

-Chris
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:50 PM   #29
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Reading the specs listed and understanding anchors (as well as anchoring in general) from decades experience... I'd recommend FX 85 as #1 anchor. Size should well handle your boat and its weight remains manageable. If not full chain rode then I'd recommend at least 50' of heavy chain to wire or line.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:24 AM   #30
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Mako, FWIW I was just glancing at the Mantus website -- looking at their swivel, actually -- and I saw they have a fill-in-the-blank sizing tool.


For our boat, and using "storm anchor" as our intended purpose, they suggest their 85-lb anchor. Much too heavy (now) for me to manually recover, should that become necessary.


Anyway, it's an interesting tool. Selecting "working anchor" returns much more info about suggested rope and chain sizes, etc.


Just an observation, not a recommendation. Realize this also isn't one of the three anchors you've been looking at, but thought you might find the results interesting... given the Mantus looks kinda-sorta similar to some of your other candidates.


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Old 09-10-2015, 10:16 AM   #31
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Mako, You can get over 14,000 pounds (about 1/2 the mean breaking load) of pull from 400' of 1/2" chain in 12' of water. As I've said before its the chain that anchors the boat and the anchor that anchors one end of the chain. In 410' of water the chain weighs around 877 pounds, but it's the leverage of that weight multiplied by the scope ratio that does the magic. One of the cool things about an all chain rode is that you can use the catenary to pull the boat forward to retrieve the anchor without an engine (no you are not using the windlass to pull the boat forward if you just lift the weight of the chain off the seabed). I did this regularly on a 40 ton sailboat with 1/2" chain and a hundred pound cqr I think it was. Anchored five days in Madeira in 50 plus kts for 2 of them waiting for the winds to shift.


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Old 09-10-2015, 10:30 AM   #32
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up the rebels!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:36 AM   #33
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What type of bottom/s will all this be taking place over?
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:57 AM   #34
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So the knowns are force 11 and boat size. The unknown are duration, bottom and fetch.


Force 11 yields 37' to 52' waves on open conditions. In shallow or near shore those waves will be breaking.
I don't know how you can plan for that.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:05 PM   #35
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So the knowns are force 11 and boat size. The unknown are duration, bottom and fetch.


Force 11 yields 37' to 52' waves on open conditions. In shallow or near shore those waves will be breaking.
I don't know how you can plan for that.
You plan on running the engine(s), and prayer.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:27 PM   #36
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I appreciate all the feedback so far. To answer the above questions:

* Bottom conditions will of course be varied, so I'm trying to size anchors based on somewhere in-between the holding loads reported from hard sand to soft mud. Just an average, trying to be conservative. For the first few years she will be based out of the west coast of Malaysia where previously we had encountered either sand or sand/clay.
* Sizing for force 11 winds to calculate aerodynamic drag. I can't recall the last time someone tried to anchor in 30 to 50 foot seas

Design and calculations are always based on assumptions, ideal conditions, etc., but in the end selecting anchors is based on experience, gut feeling, etc. My previous boats all came with anchors and the only new one that I built (small fisherman) was easy to decide on ground tackle because it was a day boat anyway.

Desiging and building a new boat is exciting and fun and very frustrating all at the same time.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:41 AM   #37
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"Force 11 yields 37' to 52' waves on open conditions. In shallow or near shore those waves will be breaking.
I don't know how you can plan for that."

Running up a river would be my solution .

Depending on the bottom contour anchoring in 400+ ft of water might keep one out of the steep breaking water.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:27 AM   #38
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IMHO - Although the Beaufort Scale is good rule of thumb... conditions mentioned at wind speeds are broad outline.


http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html


Beaufort Wind Scale


Developed in 1805 by Sir Francis Beaufort, U.K. Royal Navy



Force


Wind
(Knots)



WMO
Classification



Appearance of Wind Effects


On the Water


On Land


0

Less than 1
Calm
Sea surface smooth and mirror-like
Calm, smoke rises vertically

1

1-3
Light Air
Scaly ripples, no foam crests
Smoke drift indicates wind direction, still wind vanes

2

4-6
Light Breeze
Small wavelets, crests glassy, no breaking
Wind felt on face, leaves rustle, vanes begin to move

3

7-10
Gentle Breeze
Large wavelets, crests begin to break, scattered whitecaps
Leaves and small twigs constantly moving, light flags extended

4

11-16
Moderate Breeze
Small waves 1-4 ft. becoming longer, numerous whitecaps
Dust, leaves, and loose paper lifted, small tree branches move

5

17-21
Fresh Breeze
Moderate waves 4-8 ft taking longer form, many whitecaps, some spray
Small trees in leaf begin to sway

6

22-27
Strong Breeze
Larger waves 8-13 ft, whitecaps common, more spray
Larger tree branches moving, whistling in wires

7

28-33
Near Gale
Sea heaps up, waves 13-19 ft, white foam streaks off breakers
Whole trees moving, resistance felt walking against wind

8

34-40
Gale
Moderately high (18-25 ft) waves of greater length, edges of crests begin to break into spindrift, foam blown in streaks
Twigs breaking off trees, generally impedes progress

9

41-47
Strong Gale
High waves (23-32 ft), sea begins to roll, dense streaks of foam, spray may reduce visibility
Slight structural damage occurs, slate blows off roofs

10

48-55
Storm
Very high waves (29-41 ft) with overhanging crests, sea white with densely blown foam, heavy rolling, lowered visibility
Seldom experienced on land, trees broken or uprooted, "considerable structural damage"

11

56-63
Violent Storm
Exceptionally high (37-52 ft) waves, foam patches cover sea, visibility more reduced


12

64+
Hurricane
Air filled with foam, waves over 45 ft, sea completely white with driving spray, visibility greatly reduced
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