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Old 07-15-2016, 07:29 PM   #161
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Hi Howard--

I certainly didn't mean to jump out at you! After awhile frustration sets in. I had to listen to my wife telling me that its less expensive to get a mooring instead of anchoring; kept telling me not to purchase another anchor. I did not like the idea of parting with $725 (best price I have seen) for that new Fortress which I did hoping to sleep well in any weather on my boat.

The one thing that doeas concern me though and not the pulling aspect. It is the anchor size. I may be going in the wrong direction and just maybe a smaller anchor is the way to go. Yes, this seems against all logic but a smaller anchor will bury faster than a larger anchor. There were in past years discussions over on the Cruiser's forum pertaining to this topic.

In the mean time--- I wish you the best at anchor
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:35 PM   #162
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Hi Howard--

I certainly didn't mean to jump out at you! After awhile frustration sets in. I had to listen to my wife telling me that its less expensive to get a mooring instead of anchoring; kept telling me not to purchase another anchor. I did not like the idea of parting with $725 (best price I have seen) for that new Fortress which I did hoping to sleep well in any weather on my boat.

The one thing that doeas concern me though and not the pulling aspect. It is the anchor size. I may be going in the wrong direction and just maybe a smaller anchor is the way to go. Yes, this seems against all logic but a smaller anchor will bury faster than a larger anchor. There were in past years discussions over on the Cruiser's forum pertaining to this topic.

In the mean time--- I wish you the best at anchor
Where did this statement of fact come from?

Sure I can see where a smaller anchor with just a touch of pull may start to set faster...but inevitably, the force required to stop your boat is either from sheer weight or anchor setting and holding characteristics.

When the time comes, all anchors will start to bury and stop movement. Larger ones have the ability to overcome small issues like biological, surface crusting, etc....
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:42 PM   #163
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Hey Guru--

You expect facts backup by laboratory testing in a public boat experience sharing forum?
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:49 PM   #164
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Hey Guru--

You expect facts backup by laboratory testing in a public boat experience sharing forum?
no...but you state something like it is fact...every time anchor testing is done, every new anchor, every new poster, new anchor setting pictures and videos seem to disprove the earlier "facts"...

So I am just disputing the "smaller anchors set faster" statement unless you or anyone else can prove that without a doubt.

If it's your opinion...that's OK too....and I don't think it is a relevant general consensus.

But based on your anchoring success......
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:58 PM   #165
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I mentioned that there was a discussion on this very topic at the Cruisers Forum. And it remains a lengthy discussion for those so inclined to participate. I discussed how I increased my anchor sizes from a 55 Delta to an 88 Delta.....the 55 is sold but if interested I will offer the 88 at a great price.

Further inthe course of these posts I explained how I replaced my 88 Delta with an 80 Manson Supreme, ALL OF THESE ANCHORS ARE OVER SIZED FOR MY BOAT. All anchors so far used on my 40 Silverton (25-30K#s) failed! That was my only reason for even mentioning the Cruiser discussiong about using smaller anchors. At this time I am ready to pray to all gods even the demi ones
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:03 PM   #166
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In my above post I overlooked mentioning that my ordered Fortress FX 55 is way oversized for my boat. My anchoring history gives proof that I believe in oversized anchors.
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:27 PM   #167
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foggy,what do Steve` SV Panope tests say about the Manson Supreme?
I`d be interested to hear Steve`s views about the advantage/disadvantage of upsizing anchors.
The perennial question, does size matter? Anchor makers invariably upsize anchors with boat size. Is there a point at which it becomes a disadvantage, always assuming the windlass has the capacity to retrieve it?
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:05 PM   #168
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I will pay the $$. Which anchor is best.

I've got you all beat by 7500 years. I was anchoring on Noah's Ark. We used to tie a rope to a Hippo and toss him overboard. He never drug but we played hell getting him back on board. You should have seen the windlass we had to install. Seemed to work best in mud.
My two cents is still Mantus with a Fortress back up. All chain on the main, boat length of chain backed up with rope on the alternate.
There is no such thing as a perfect anchor for any and all situations but this combo is pretty hard to beat.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:26 PM   #169
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I've got you all beat by 7500 years. I was anchoring on Noah's Ark. We used to tie a rope to a Hippo and toss him overboard. He never drug but we played hell getting him back on board. You should have seen the windlass we had to install. Seemed to work best in mud.
My two cents is still Mantus with a Fortress back up. All chain on the main, boat length of chain backed up with rope on the alternate.
There is no such thing as a perfect anchor for any and all situations but this combo is pretty hard to beat.

I am interested in renting that Hippo when available. I know where to find the mud he will love

In the mean time I'll just have to put up with my MS and my being delivered Fortress. And I am in your camp, no perfect anchor
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:18 AM   #170
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My two cents is still Mantus with a Fortress back up. All chain on the main, boat length of chain backed up with rope on the alternate.
There is no such thing as a perfect anchor for any and all situations but this combo is pretty hard to beat.
Precisely my setup. My Mantus sets faster and harder than any anchor I've ever owned.
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:15 AM   #171
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In my above post I overlooked mentioning that my ordered Fortress FX 55 is way oversized for my boat. My anchoring history gives proof that I believe in oversized anchors.
Foggysail, can I suggest you take up Bruce's suggestion and look up Steve's anchor setting videos on this thread....

Anchor setting Videos

I think you will find them enlightening, and the Manson Supreme and Fortress types, among most of the other alternatives, including the latest new generation anchors, are included in the studies, which happen to be about the best example of comparative anchor testing, setting, current change re-setting etc ever done, I think.
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Old 07-16-2016, 11:46 AM   #172
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Bruce & Peter--

Thank you for your suggestions. I have watched Steve's anchor setting videos along with those from testing done in the Chesapeake Bay plus West Marine's test data. West Marine is reported to be the worlds largest anchor retailer so they have a vested interest in tests without vendor influence.

There were some interesting comments in the Chesapeake reports that somewhat support the slow setting routine instead of hard pulling as incidently the tests I saw employed. Bruce's thoughts on "is big really better" still remains an issue. With all the testing done that I am aware of that different size, same style anchors by the same manufacturer were never compared side by side.

To be sure, the anchoring discussions will remain with us for some time to come. The only thing that I believe is true is that there is no perfect anchor for all applications.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:27 PM   #173
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I agree w Drake. Looks like the Mantus would be the anchor most likely to solve foggysail's problem. I for one would like to discover what exactly is foggy's problem. I have used about 10 kinds of anchors and never dragged. I've had setting problems though and Steves tests have shown the Mantus to quite likely be the setting king. It may not set at very short scope but almost never is that done or needed. Anchoring at short scope is a very valuable advantage if you and your gear have it.

I think the problem is not the anchors or their size. I don't think small anchors set better (they may) but they definitely penetrate better. But that's not foggy's problem. The problem is foggy IMO. I really doubt the anchors have much or anything to do w it. But the problem is'nt all foggy's doing as grass is problematic for everyone as I see it. My trusty old 13lb Danny would'nt even give a tiny tug on the rode over the slipery grass we found. But foggy's talk'in about quite a bit of anchoring .. not an isolated grass experience.

I's suggest foggy lower his anchor slowly to the bottom and back down slowly paying out rode all the time w the rode slack or nearly so until enough rode is laid out for at least 3-1 scope and for setting 4-1 would be better. Then back down very slowly probably using intermittent gear engagement (no 2 or 3 knot nonsense) to just take most of the slack out of the rode and enough to pull slightly at times. Do some of that all the while until considerable strain on the rode is felt. Then idle the engines in gear after a pause w slackish rode. Or use 1200 rpm w a single engine. Done.

Foggy you may already see the problem as you are problbly doing something WAY different than the above. Or several things. But hundreds of us anchor regulary not being anywhere near as serious or fussy as my scenairo above and come closer to just dump'in the hook down and pay'in out some rode for scope and tide.

But either the Super SARCA, Mantus or AR Excel will give you super good setting performance. As for holding there's thousands of posts to read here. There was an anchor test done some time ago testing "veering" performance of anchors. And there's much to be learned by Steve's tests in "anchor setting videos" .. a thread.

But foggy if you were to go out anchoring w a good experienced skipper and observe his anchoring you would probably arrive at a point where you'd think or say "oh I don't do anything like that" or "now I see what I'm doing wrong". I suspect it will be a "seeing the light" experience.

But you are the common denominator in your tale, not anchors.

Just a thought but you may be lowering or dropping the chain in a heap around the anchor and the anchors may not be able to shed all the chain. So the anchor draggs some chain along that makes the anchor inoperative.
Because I had an anchor that had serious setting problems I developed a method of mostly dealing w it. That was to lower the anchor until bottom was felt. Not lowering more rode until stern way began and then lowering slowly laying out the rode in a relatively straght line giving the rode no chance to get tangled on the anchor. Then the back down/setting begins. So if your problem is chain/anchor tangling the above should guide you to avoid that. Some anchors are more subject to chain tangling than others.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:39 PM   #174
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What he said. ^
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:56 PM   #175
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See post 156. We've come full circle.
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Old 07-16-2016, 01:18 PM   #176
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Eric--

I anchored for 25 years with my sailboat using at first a Bruce 33, later moving to a 44. Neither anchor ever failed until our harbors filled with ell grass. The Bruce DID easily penetrate the grass but a false set resulted. Yes, the set would satisfy normal weather conditions but not high winds/storms. The failure was the bottom itself pulled off the ocean floor such that the anchor resembled a roiund ball surrounded by ocean bottom.

I at first used the Bruce 44 with my Silverton. IT HELD FIRMLY IN SANDY BOTTOMS, it failed in mud whereas in the sailboat, it held in mud.

There are two different conditions that occur with the Silverton. The first is the anchor eventually slips. I always watch my location on my GPS which is left on thoughout each anchor stay. The Delta anchors always set! But they did not stay in the locations they were placed at. Heavy wind & currents caused the anchors to either slip or plow. Cannot verify which becuase I don't dive onto my anchors as many do. This plowing occurred with both a 55# and an 88#. Sure, if the harbors here were not so crowded, maybe I coiuld have lived with the boat's movement.

I am into my 4th year with the Manson Supreme. There are times when the anchor holds without issues. I used to brag to others that I found the "right" anchor for my boat......until one stormy weekend at Cuttyhunk Harbor with heavy ell grass. We had winds in the 25K range for three days. On day two I noticed that boat was slipping but I didn't want to do anything to jeopardize where I was anchored. I probably should have set more scope but by the time I made the decision to do so, there was inadequate anchorage clearance to allow additional chain to be deployed. We were forced to move later to a rental piling.

The next time I ran into problems with teh MS was last week at Lake TAshmo on Matha's Vineyard. The anchor held steady for days with a dominant easterly 20-30K wind. Gees, I was again proud of my MS! Then we had a wind change when the weather improved, a nearly 180 degree change. I was actually watching the GPS at this time and witnessed the slippage. Sure, not much maybe 50'. So I started the engines and reset the anchor. So you say this is normal. In fact the testing done in the Chesapeake verified that most anchors will reset themselves but it can take many feet before doingf so. Think of an anchor loaded with mud just being ripped from the bottom. That contaminated anchor is NOT going to immediately reset until some of the mud on it has cleared.

That is problem #1! The anchor I want is one that DOES NOT PULL OUT with a wind change. The Cuttyhunk problem might have been avoided if I had increased scope to nearer to 10 when I had the chance to do so.

Problem #2 is when the anchor just will not set at all. And for sure this is related to that particular bottom condition. Some harbors such as Lagon Pond here in Vinyard haven (on a mooring here until tomorrow) do not have bottom consistancy. Some areas are mud, others are sand and then there is the most difficult bottom which has mud covered hard gravel.

So am I the problem? No, I don't feel so. Why order a large Fortress FX 55? back to praying to all gods including the demigods to be able to anchor and stay put. But being realistic, recognizing the fact that there is no magic bullet or anchor, I am merely increasing my odds that the anchor will stay put. And sure, maybe I purchased the wrong answer.

I want to close by referring to the OP's question, "what is the best anchor?" THERE ISN'T ONE!

FOGGY
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Old 07-16-2016, 01:25 PM   #177
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Your problems with the Manson Supreme are not problems that I am having or have read widely about.


In tests including the anchor setting video, the Manson holds it's own in the pack, but did not look good in the one video tests involving a pull and reset sequence. Only a couple anchors there scored well.


My own personal experience with tidal flow reversal has not been an issue...but I think it's because it has been set and rotated rather than pulled and tried to reset.


I have no idea what is going on in your situation...but all the next gen anchors seem to do well. Except a few test better in exceptional anchoring circumstances.


But for general cruising....the Manson as well as others seem to keep their owners satisfied. Sure, everyone winds up disliking a particular product...but it is the exception, not the rule.
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:26 PM   #178
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With previous boat;

Pick up the fishing gear 12 to 15nm offshore, run (at 7 knots) full cruise speed
towards shore. 7 or 8 miles off shore find the 28 to 32 fathom bank with the rest
of the fleet. Approach from the opposite way they are hanging (current runs up to
3 knots) pick an open area with swing room, slow to idle,shift to neutral, go onto
the bow, kick the anchor over.
The anchor (66lb Forfjord) almost freewheels pulling off 15 fathoms of 3/8 chain
and approx. 110 fathoms of line rode. Tighten up on the brake to bring the boat to a stop, swinging the bow smartly around to head into the current.
Watch the set for a few minutes then into the bunk.
Hope the wind doesn't pick up during the night, it's a 2 hour run to shelter.

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Old 07-17-2016, 05:38 AM   #179
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Yes, Ted. I often do the sailor's on-the-move drop. Works for me as well.
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Old 07-17-2016, 06:06 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
.....testing done in the Chesapeake verified that most anchors will reset themselves but it can take many feet before doing so. Think of an anchor loaded with mud just being ripped from the bottom. That contaminated anchor is NOT going to immediately reset until some of the mud on it has cleared.

So am I the problem? No, I don't feel so.

I want to close by referring to the OP's question, "what is the best anchor?" THERE ISN'T ONE!
FOGGY
Foggy, I hear what you're saying, because I had similar issues with the original CQR that came with the boat, and two things that come to mind...

1. The issue of the occasional failure to re-set of many anchors because of their becoming clogged is a concern, and often comes back to the fluke shape, and certainly occurs with the Bruce, Manson, Rocna and Danforth and Spade types, at times. Which is why Rex Francis of Anchor Right, the maker of my Super Sarca and the newer Excel, after experimenting with concave fluke, (i.e. shaped like a spade), returned to the somewhat convex shape, just so as to shed as much as possible of the substrate not only for less bottom damage, but also for cleaner retrieval, and better re-setting. Net result was an incredibly reliably setting anchor, with good holding, (although there are some that in certain conditions are claimed to be a bit a bit higher), and very quick at re-setting. As one is seldom exposed to conditions where ultimate high holding is paramount, the other two features give better peace of mind, in my view.

2. The other thing relates to your final comment re there being no 'best' anchor, because I think you are right, and I just explained why in point 1.

Because no one anchor ever will perform best in every possible situation and bottom condition. However, the closest you can get is to have an anchor that is a really good all-rounder. I think there are now enough guys up there in the North American area now who have them, who would say to you (as I do), keep the Fortress as your stern or back-up and get a (?#6) Excel. (Also coved by Steve's videos.)
You would then arguably have the best two anchor combination possible.
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