Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-03-2016, 04:15 AM   #21
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
You're adding the weight of one man by going to 300 feet of 3/8 chain. I don't think you'll notice it.
Hoppy, that would be one fairly supersized man...are they that common over there..? Sorry, like you, couldn't resist...
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 11:38 PM   #22
Guru
 
HopCar's Avatar


 
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,505
Bunch of wise guys on this forum.
Ok here is what I meant about adding the weight of one scrawny Australian man.

The OP said his current rode weighs 180 pounds. If he goes to 300 feet of chain the rode will weigh 366 pounds. He will had added 186 pounds.

He could actually add the weight of a proper sized man, such as myself, and not notice the difference.
__________________

__________________
Parks Masterson
www.hopkins-carter.com
HopCar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 06:59 AM   #23
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
Bunch of wise guys on this forum.
Ok here is what I meant about adding the weight of one scrawny Australian man.

The OP said his current rode weighs 180 pounds. If he goes to 300 feet of chain the rode will weigh 366 pounds. He will had added 186 pounds.

He could actually add the weight of a proper sized man, such as myself, and not notice the difference.
Oh, I see...you were leaving the original guy on there, and adding one person. I was envisaging you taking the first guy off, and then putting one really big dude on there, so it was not too crowded on the foredeck.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 07:55 AM   #24
Guru
 
City: Doha
Country: Qatar
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 663
There was a previous thread which discussed rope/chain versus all/chain. Perhaps seῆor NomadWilly can comment on this, but my question is, setting aside the issue of chafe of the nylon line:

Wouldn't it be more advantageous to just have a short length of extremely heavy
stud link chain (eg. 6 feet of 1" stud link) attached to the anchor, followed directly by the nylon rode?

Basically dispensing completely with the typical 1/2 boat length of "normal" size chain. It seems that wind/surge load would have to be rather high for the 60 lbs of stud link and then the anchor to be raised above horizontal.
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 11:34 AM   #25
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,736
To me, handling the 6' of chain along with the anchor, could be problematic even in the best of conditions. Our first 2 boats had a combination of chain and rope. Our last 2 have had all chain. If there is a next boat, unless it's less than 25', it will have all chain.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 12:09 PM   #26
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101TUG View Post
shock absorption that the weight of the chain going up and down, of course hook grab to the chain and line on cleat to not force on windlass.

today I tried on anchor 20 knots of wind hook on chain + spectra line to the cleat no chock, and like you know spectra is not extensible?

one of the problem with chain + line that dangerous for all other boat passing on front, when wind blow line going up near the surface on long way especially on shallow water...

be nice with Europe first boat on your water what Europe boat
Once the chain come bar tight there is no more centenary effect.

As to boats picking up your anchor, sure it can happen but it's pretty rare. Except where you are with all the charters I guess.

The first boats in US waters were Indian canoes.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 01:10 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
101TUG's Avatar
 
City: Gustavia
Country: St Barth
Vessel Name: Super MAN
Vessel Model: Terranova Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
Once the chain come bar tight there is no more centenary effect.
you don't have enough chain on water ..

we speak about boat not canoe
101TUG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 01:44 PM   #28
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusty Chief View Post
Please remember tides. I'm in Octupus islands today, 42 feet of water at high tide.low was 31. Full moon tomorrow, so 175 feet out and 175 still in the locker.
Snubber is 7 feet below the water and we are sleeping well with 25 knots wind.

My recommendation is all chain on your primary, 300-400 should do it, but if you have the room and can handle a bit more weight, you won't regret it.

Just my opinion, and at two cents and on the net, take it for what it is.
Octupus Is. should'nt have any fetch so why the snubber? Are you sailing and thus jerking on the line?
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 01:57 PM   #29
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
101 TUG wrote;
"chain + line is really American way you never saw that in Europe
in caribbean only US boat and Puerto-Rican boat doing that "

Combination rode only popular in the US? That's a new one on me but I'm not well traveled. The rest of the world should come out of the dark ages and take advantage of nylon line.

I think handling is the reason people use all chain and of course the advantage of looking like an old salt .. chain does have that advantage. But convenience probably rules. One kind of rode, one gypsy to match the chain and it's simple. roll it out .... roll it in. But if you have heavy chain and lots of it along w very frequent salt spray on your PH windows don't blame it on the boat design, flare ect. Look in the chain locker.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:07 PM   #30
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Bill wrote;
"Once the chain come bar tight there is no more centenary effect."

There's been lots of talk about that over the years but I don't put much stock in it.
First of all the catenary would be closer to the anchor and not visible. The catenary is not a linear arc. The chain droops like a hockey stick. It would take a lot more than wind to straighten out a chain rode. IMO. But I'm not supporting all chain. IMO catenary is mostly beneficial setting the anchor. A level pull on the anchor is important then.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:26 PM   #31
Guru
 
Crusty Chief's Avatar
 
City: Las Vegas/Portland
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pairadice
Vessel Model: Selene 47
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Octupus Is. should'nt have any fetch so why the snubber? Are you sailing and thus jerking on the line?
When we anchor for several days in one location, I usually use the snubber line for a couple of reasons. The first, we don't get the chain noise from the pulpit rollers. The second, the snubber changes the angle of incidence? I think that's what it's called, maybe you guys know the correct term.

My pulpit rollers are 8ft above the water and when we get a stiff wind without the snubber, the chain on the rollers gets noisy when sailing back and forth. Can't say for sure, but sailing seems to be reduced with the snubber. I made the snubber line with a finished length of both sides right at 24 feet. By running through the forward Hawspipe and securing to the Samson post, it hangs down about 8 feet below the water with no strain. Our next test in wind we will try routing the snubber to one side or the other to the next Hawspipe back. Several people have recommended this to reduce sailing even more.
__________________
John & Tracey
Pairadice S4714
http://mvpairadice.blogspot.com/
" I can explain, but I can't make you understand"
Crusty Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:37 PM   #32
Guru
 
78puget-trawler's Avatar
 
City: LaConner
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 34' CHB
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Bill wrote;
"Once the chain come bar tight there is no more centenary effect."

There's been lots of talk about that over the years but I don't put much stock in it.
First of all the catenary would be closer to the anchor and not visible. The catenary is not a linear arc. The chain droops like a hawky stick. It would take a lot more than wind to straighten out a chain rode. IMO. But I'm not supporting all chain. IMO catenary is mostly beneficial setting the anchor. A level pull on the anchor is important then.
I made this point earlier and agree, that no way do you pull an all chain rode "bar tight", on a small boat anyway. Probably not even on a battleship.
78puget-trawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:44 PM   #33
QB
Senior Member
 
QB's Avatar
 
City: San Diego and Gabriola
Country: USA and Canada
Vessel Name: Skookum Maru
Vessel Model: Ed Monk design #1924
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusty Chief View Post
Full moon tomorrow, .
Check your lunar tables there Crusty!
QB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 02:44 PM   #34
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
There was a previous thread which discussed rope/chain versus all/chain. Perhaps seῆor NomadWilly can comment on this, but my question is, setting aside the issue of chafe of the nylon line:

Wouldn't it be more advantageous to just have a short length of extremely heavy
stud link chain (eg. 6 feet of 1" stud link) attached to the anchor, followed directly by the nylon rode?

Basically dispensing completely with the typical 1/2 boat length of "normal" size chain. It seems that wind/surge load would have to be rather high for the 60 lbs of stud link and then the anchor to be raised above horizontal.
Nice to be remembered .. thanks.

Several years back someone dug up some research and found that catenary on a rode is not linear at all. One would think (re a straight line) the droop or catenary would be at the mid point along the rode. Not so and I'm quite sure it varies w different scope and lengths of chain. Shorter scope would have the catenary closer to the anchor and longer scope closer to the mid point but not to the mid point until the rode is horizontal. Te research said the maximum cat was about 20% of the way up the rode .. probably w all chain. With all line being much much lighter the catenary would probably max further up the rode but still lower than mid point.

But exactly under what circumstances the cat become ineffective? .. I don't know. But having not used more than 15' of chain ever cat obviously had little to do w the fact that my boats have never dragged. Pacific is "peace" and little wind is the norm at night in the Pacific Northwest so that also was a factor. My boating goes (went) in spurts so that also helped. But I have anchored in 50 knot gales twice and 30 to 40 knot winds many (30?) times. My experience indicates cat (catenary) is a minor player in anchor performance. And my opinion is that ground tackle weight is most wisely spent at the anchor. In the "186lb" example above putting 50lbs into the anchor would be far better than 186lbs into the rode. And if one is bent on using the remainder of the "186lbs" but it in line available .. in the locker.

But if I had a 45' boat I definitely would have a rode much or considerably different than the one I have now. If the boat was stern heavy I'd have lots of chain. But not all chain. Not all because I could have a very long rode in a combination rode and that may keep me off the beach (sand or rocks) some day. But I would have more than "a few feet of chain". If the boat was bow down (heavy) I'd have a combination rode w considerably less chain than line. And I'd work hard to get the boat in trim.

So Mako I would say probably more and lighter chain would be better. Up to about 30 - 35% of rode. But keep in mind that most combination rodes rarely let out line at all .. or just a small amount. So perhaps 20% chain would be best for cat performance. Lots of variables to consider.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 03:01 PM   #35
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by 78puget-trawler View Post
I made this point earlier and agree, that no way do you pull an all chain rode "bar tight", on a small boat anyway. Probably not even on a battleship.
PT,
I agree but Peter Smith (Rocna) says so. I don't take much stock in what he says and I'm not going to spend a lot of time proving it. But I'm quite sure normal anchoring won't pull out the catenary. But how much pull on the rode will reduce the cat to be ineffective? It's a degree thing and how valuable is it in the first place? Don't know but I (like you) believe we won't get a chain bar tight w all chain out. I believe the anchor to be far more effective on anchoring performance than chain. Steve on Panope showed rodes at quit an angle w lots of tension on and the shanks w their shackle end (of the shank) down in the bottom. Many were surprised to see that. That alone shows cat is'nt as important as we thought. But lots of people think it is.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 03:12 PM   #36
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Crusty Chief,
OK good. I never have the chain noise so rarely think of that.
I'm keen on bridals though as we sail a lot and really dislike it.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 03:58 PM   #37
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,796
If you are truly setting the anchor by powering back on it, you are by definition eliminating the catenary of the chain. I've seen all-chain rodes pulled completely tight on a variety of boats, typically at around 25 knots depending on boat design.
A snubber doesn't change the angle of incidence or pull one bit; it essentially creates a combination rode.

Chain accomplishes a number of things that casual or occasional boaters may not have particular need of. Beside dampening the motion of the boat in fair weather conditions, it eliminates chafe on the bottom in those conditions, such as when only mild current shifts or breeze directions cause the boat to move about. I've recounted here the time when I saw our anchor (or the end of the shank, I should say when I got up one morning, off our port quarter with the half-buried chain running parallel to the boat all the way on up past the bow... we were lying to the chain due to a breeze shift during the night. Likewise, we have brought in several yards of mud packed chain when weighing anchor.

And it reduces the exposure of the rode to chafe at the boat as well, though of course care with snubbers/bridles requires chafe protection too... it's just that they are more eminently and quickly easy to replace should they be compromised by chafe.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 04:11 PM   #38
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,188
I never thought about it before, but as the anchor gets heavier on larger boats, is there a point where all-chain is required to ensure engagement with the windless gypsy? Would a combo chain/rope rode engage securely with a 175lb anchor and maybe 50-75 lbs of chain? Are combo gypsies even available above 3/8" chain size? I only remember seeing chain gypsies available for my Maxwell 3500.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 05:04 PM   #39
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
Caltex,
Chain on the end of the anchor shank actually inhibits anchor penetration because it slices into the bottom w dificulty. Anchor penetration is better w a short length of cable (2 or 3') because the end of the shank goes into the bottom better.

But you can't see the catenary near the anchor. The chain near the bow pulpit may look straight but lower down and especially near the anchor it may (probably) is drooping w considerable catenary. I can offer no proof but belive it to be true. Re chafe good point.

Twistedtree,
I'm quite sure you're right. At some point in size it will ceast to be available. Then all chain or cable is a given.

With a reel winch all rode types and combinations are available. Studded chain, shackle, heavy chain, shackle, standard chain for the boat, shackle, nylon line or whatever.
But w/o the reel winch all chain of one size it the only option and long rodes are way too heavy.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 06:11 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,892
So much speculation...hard to add anything....other than just practice with what you have....go from there.
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012