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Old 09-12-2016, 10:44 AM   #121
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[QUOTE=Ted;478990][QUOTE=Nomad Willy;478813
Fortress had their small anchor (in the Chesapeake test) penetrate better in one situation and penetration is probably universaly better. But weight dosn't guarantee penetration. The Navy anchor is evidence of that being essentially a bulldozer. ]

The Fortess anchor was best in testing that fortress paid for and fortress defined the test protocol The test protocol was odd to say the least, and it does not reflect real world anchoring. I was at the Chesapeake Biological Laboratory, whose ship Rachael Carson was the test platform, doing research for a magazine article. I mentioned the anchor testing. In their words "Well I'm sure you have seen the results of our now well discredited tests." These tests, as with almost all anchor tests i have read,seem to prove that the best anchor happens to belong to the people hosting the tests.
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:07 PM   #122
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Advice please...

On the flight home from Annapolis last night, my Mom and I were discussing spare anchors. She said that in all her years of sailing, she and my Dad never used a second anchor to anchor, and never lost and anchor. However, they always had a spare.

On my sailboats, I usually had a spare Danforth or Fortress. On my Catalina 400 it was a Fortress with 200' of nylon rode. Never needed the spare.

On my current boat, I don't have a spare anchor. I want to get an anchor to use as a spare in case I lose an anchor to fouling. It has never happened yet, but could really run a vacation if I was to foul the only anchor that I have.

I have the CQR that I took off the boat and replaced with my Excel and could use that as a spare, but the thing is huge and heavy. If I felt like spending lots of money I would go with the Sarca Excel Alloy anchor with the removable shank. Lightweight, easy to store, and effective. However, that would be pretty expensive.

I am leaning towards another Fortress and 300' of nylon rode. I am not concerned about quick deployment or using it as a second anchor. My primary concern is the temporary replacement of a fouled anchor.

Looking for opinions and advice, most of which will be far more educated than my own.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:42 PM   #123
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Dave,
A spare for an Excel is a hard clam to crack.

A spare anchor should be like a VP in the whitehouse. Complementry. To step in and do a reasonably good job under a wide variety of conceveable circumstances. Should be economical as it would be most likely not used. Should be dependable as it may be needed in demanding circumstances.

A Claw seems obvious to shoe in. It's dependability is questionable. But that shortcomming is reduced very quickly as size increases. So if a big Claw actually becomes dependable (from excess size) it could rival the primary. And as a spare that would fit nicely. But the question of dependability would vary widely among users ... from what I hear and read. But the Claw is very flexible .. can be used on almost any bottom, at any scope and veering but perhaps not reversals.

Another way to look at it is to carry a spare like a small 45mph spare tire on a car. To get you where you can replace your primary anchor. A small Supreme or SUPER SARCA. Undersized and more or less lightweight. Handy to use in an emergency. Easy to store and deploy. But just big enough to hold in a strong breeze (35-40mph) but probably not in a gale. Think again of the donut spare on a car.

A Mantus has very very good ratings for setting dependability. Good holding too. It's disassembles so would store easily.

But many think a second anchor should be of a different type than the usually used anchor. An anchor that does well where the other does not .. or is weak. I don't know that there is a weakness in the Excel's performance. Could be mud and I really can't think of any other possible weakness. But I personally don't know much about the anchor.
So if a president is perfect the VP should mirror the president. But no president is perfect nor is any anchor but if you've got one close perhaps another Excel would be the smart thing to do. Just as a guess I'm going to throw out the Spade .. a small one to keep the price down. Actually there is a good sale going on now at the duckworks for new anchors and they have reconditioned Spades for sale. Look at Steve's (Panope) vids and hear again what he says about the Spade.

I wish we had more posts about what anchors that members are using. Would be nice to have a poll of 100 or more members but that doesn't look likely.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:54 PM   #124
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A Mantus has very very good ratings for setting dependability. Good holding too. It's disassembles so would store easily.
Great thoughts. The Mantus is a great suggestion. I don't know why I didn't think of the Mantus before. It disassembles so solves the storage issue and it is known to perform well. I rejected the Mantus as my primary anchor as it would not fill on my pulpit with the roll bar. However that may not be as much of an issue as a backup anchor.

I will need to see how it might work with just a nylon rode.

Thanks!
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:52 PM   #125
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Larry,
What's your experience with the Manson Ray (Claw) anchor?
I don't ever rember it mentioned on this forum. For others (not famillar w the Ray) it's very unique in that it's made very differently. I've only seen one anchor test involving the Ray. A very small test (three anchors) in South America. Being very expensive few buy it and little is commonly known. So what does one get w the Ray?
What's so unique about it? It's just a Bruce knock off.

Used a SS one on a 78' Marlow. The shank bent about the first time I used it.
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:50 AM   #126
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On the flight home from Annapolis last night, my Mom and I were discussing spare anchors. She said that in all her years of sailing, she and my Dad never used a second anchor to anchor, and never lost and anchor. However, they always had a spare.
On my current boat, I don't have a spare anchor. I want to get an anchor to use as a spare in case I lose an anchor to fouling. It has never happened yet, but could really run a vacation if I was to foul the only anchor that I have.
I have the CQR that I took off the boat and replaced with my Excel and could use that as a spare, but the thing is huge and heavy.
Looking for opinions and advice...
I retired a CQR when I bought the Sarca. It had worked quite well for us, I made it back up, with a combination rode.But, it was not oversized, if anything I thought it may have been undersized, it came with the boat. We carry more than one boathook,but anchor redundancy is much more important. If your CQR is too cumbersome maybe it`s not the one for back up, but if it worked well, maybe it, or a smaller relative is. The CQR served many of us well.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:43 AM   #127
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"On my current boat, I don't have a spare anchor. I want to get an anchor to use as a spare in case I lose an anchor to fouling."

Admirable but the best concept is a different Style of anchor for different conditions.

CQR are great , but in ooze they have to be really oversized.

Danforths do well in softer mud, not so well in large stones.

There action on the bottom is different , just what is required for #2.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:55 AM   #128
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Great thoughts. The Mantus is a great suggestion. I don't know why I didn't think of the Mantus before. It disassembles so solves the storage issue and it is known to perform well. I rejected the Mantus as my primary anchor as it would not fill on my pulpit with the roll bar. However that may not be as much of an issue as a backup anchor.

I will need to see how it might work with just a nylon rode.

Thanks!
Or...David, you could get a one size down alloy Excel as your back-up, which also disassembles, and even quicker than the Mantis, and has no roll bar. Tidahapah Benn has one as his back-up to his main Excel, so it might be worth PM'ing him..?
Oh, hang on - looking back I see you have already considered that.
On the other hand, and Eric would approve, I'm sure. Having a totally different type, but with proven good holding in most bottoms, like a Danforth/Fortress design could also work. You'll not use it anyway, unless something really weird happens to the primary Excel.
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Old 09-13-2016, 06:50 AM   #129
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Nomad W
"Another way to look at it is to carry a spare like a small 45mph spare tire on a car. To get you where you can replace your primary anchor."

Great analogy and may very well be true, however my thoughts are if I need the spare I may really be in deep shit and since this is my last stand so to speak, it needs to be really exceptional. Besides I may be days away for getting a new anchor.
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:03 AM   #130
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The Fortess anchor was best in testing that fortress paid for and fortress defined the test protocol The test protocol was odd to say the least, and it does not reflect real world anchoring. I was at the Chesapeake Biological Laboratory, whose ship Rachael Carson was the test platform, doing research for a magazine article. I mentioned the anchor testing. In their words "Well I'm sure you have seen the results of our now well discredited tests." These tests, as with almost all anchor tests i have read,seem to prove that the best anchor happens to belong to the people hosting the tests.

FWIW, those tests almost exactly replicated conditions we routinely see here on the Chesapeake, excepting the potential for tidal/current/wind direction changes after any one specific set. I could have predicted the Danforth, Fortress, and Delta outcomes (the other anchors I've used here) and if they had included the SuperMAX I suspect I could have predicted that outcome, too.


I wonder if their remark was a sarcastic response engendered by all the various follow-on commentary (in places like here) about how the tests couldn't possibly have been valid because they were bought and paid for by Fortress. (As with tests from other manufacturers: often criticized as not possibly valid because that maker developed the testing protocol and paid for the whole thing.) Just speculating...


-Chris
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:14 AM   #131
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:52 AM   #132
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I love that scene and the best line is, " hey, you scratched my anchor". LOL

Chris in my former life we had products that needed to be tested. I can guarantee you that we would never let the supplier set the test parameters or administer the test themselves. Need I mention why? 😁 White Labs was developed for such testing, independent with no dog in the fight.
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Old 09-13-2016, 09:53 AM   #133
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Re the last posts I personally don't think any anchor w significant weaknesses should be considered as a spare.

Danforths and CQRs don't measure up in that way. However if you boated exclusively in the SF Delta a Dan would do well. And since they are availible so cheap used that would make them a #1 spare anchor choice .. in the muddy Delta.

The #1 quality of a spare anchor is dependability. That excludes many anchors. I admit my mentioning the Claw may not have been approprate. But lots and lots of us the Claw is viewed as a dependable anchor. And for those it may be a good spare. If you had a big Claw on the bow and had good experience w it buying a new primary and keeping the Claw as a spare would definitely make good sense. And there are probably other good scenarios. And many anchors don't do well on rocky bottoms but the Claw is definite above average on the rocks. But you'll recall I didn't recommend a small one. One of my spares is a Claw but there's a BU for it too.

But everybody picks their spare pick.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:40 AM   #134
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Chris in my former life we had products that needed to be tested. I can guarantee you that we would never let the supplier set the test parameters or administer the test themselves. Need I mention why? �� White Labs was developed for such testing, independent with no dog in the fight.

Yep, and that'd probably be a good thing for anchors. I suspect Practical Sailor tests -- i.e., those they developed and conducted themselves -- come closest to that idea. At least I'm not aware of other independent laboratory testing?

I know lots of folks rail against manufacturer's own tests, and I also am not surprised when they release testing information that seems to support their product over others. I wasn't a marketing major (among others) for nothing!

But I'm willing to take in manufacturer's marketing info as something useful to consider, no matter how much other info might also become necessary to come to a decent (comfortable) conclusion. IOW, I'm not going to turn down a data point just because it came from the maker.

That said, I suspect folks often aren't really aware how testing protocols are developed, how individual tests can be repeatable enough to become statistically significant, what $$$ it takes to put together an appropriate testing platform (like the Rachel Carson, whether that was considered to be perfect or not) and then to carry it all out... And I suspect folks really aren't aware of how many digits might be involved in the $$$$$$ of a competent testing process. Multiply all that by the number of anchors (brands/models) to be tested, in the case of comparison testing (i.e., not just your own product).

I don't remember if Brian ever disclosed -- or whether he even could disclose -- an approximate cost for their recent round of Chesapeake Bay testing... but I'd guess it wasn't chump change.

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Old 09-13-2016, 11:58 AM   #135
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Marketing rules the world. LOL
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