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Old 11-16-2011, 02:24 PM   #21
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Peter B wrote:
...so (Marin) do you really think they would compromise the performance of their flagship new anchor by adding a slot if their tests had not proved the opposite to this anchor tripping bogey...?
*Who knows why manufacturers do what they do?* All I know is that when researching what anchor to get to replace our Bruce, I read enough testimonials on the T&T list, and on on-line review sites, and even in some on-line magazine articles, about experiences of having a Manson anchor backed out by the rode shackle sliding down the fluke end and subsequently backing the anchor out of the bottom that we determined that was not a feature we would want on our anchor. Were all these people lying? I have no idea.* But we saw enough testimonials and reviews statements to this effect that we figured why mess with the possibility at all.

The other problem the slotted anchor presented to us on our boat--- had we even decided we wanted one-- is that the inclusion of the slot PLUS the need to make the shank strong enough results in a very tall shank, or deep shank, or whatever the proper term is.* On our boat, it would have not fit under the pulpit bail.* As it turned out the Rocna barely fit under the bail as it was.* The Manson would not have fit at all.

But the main reason we eliminated the Manson from our list of candidates--- and would have elminated the Sarca, too, had it been available to us then--- is the slot.* Of course one doesn't have to use the slot, but if you're never going to use it, which would have been the case for us, then why have an anchor with it in the first place?

People who have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out.* If it ever happens to them, then they will have had it happen to them.* There have been enough people who have written about or posted their experiences of having this happen to make us not want to use a slotted anchor, or the slot in a*slotted*anchor.

Today I could get a Sarca up here if we wanted one.* But the design of the anchor is not advantageous enough-- or at all---*over the Rocna to warrant pursuing this.

The one exception would be if the kind of sport fishing we did had us anchoring and re-anchoring many times in the course of a day over bottoms that are prone to snagging anchors.* In this situation, the slot is a great idea and we'd have one on the boat.* But we don't fish in this way so have no need of the advantages of a slotted anchor.
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Old 11-16-2011, 02:45 PM   #22
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Steppen wrote:
*I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.*
The Chinese-made Rocnas have raised lettering on the underside of the narrow, angled up lip across the wide end of the fluke.* There is lettering on both halves that give the anchor name, the model (which is the same as the weight) and some other info.

If a Rocna does not have this lettering on the fluke but only has the black*nameplate on both sides of the anchor shank at the fluke end, it was made in New Zealand or by Chris Pocock's Suncoast Marine foundry in Vancouver, BC.* If it was made by Chris it will have the name Suncoast Marine in small print at the bottom of the nameplate.* I've not seen a Rocna made in New Zealand so I don't know if the plate includes a "Made in New Zealand" line or not.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:49 PM   #23
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Conrad and Marin -

Thank you gentlemen, appears I have a Chinese model with the lettering on the underside of the fluke.*

So Conrad, did Canadian Metal give you any indication as to why the 33 lbs models were not affected by the inferior production run?

No response back from Fisheries Supply yet.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:54 PM   #24
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Hi Step; here is the e-mail I received back from them:

Hi Conrad,<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Many thanks for your email.*<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Im pleased to advise that we can definitively rule out your anchor as having been affected by the recent steel issue, as our records show that*<strong style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;">no[/b]*affected anchors in the 33 pound size were sent to North America for sale.<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Were delighted to hear that your*Rocna*has been serving you well over the summer, and I hope you find this news reassuring.<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Please dont hesitate to contact us if there is anything else we can help you with.
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:15 PM   #25
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:49 PM   #26
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Quote:
Steppen wrote:
Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*
All Chinese Rocnas are made of steel no stronger that 620 yield MPa, which is a minimum of 10% and up to 25% weaker in the shank that the steel specification indicated as essential by the designer. *The reason for the range of values is because steel grades generally specify the minimum strength, and actual values can exceed that minimum by a fair amount. *

The current story from those not wanting to cover excessive warranty claims is that the 620 steel is "good enough", which it no doubt is depending on the stress it is put under. *When the distributors say that no anchor in the 33 pound range with suspect steel was shipped to N.A. they are not being accurate, depending on how you define "suspect". *If you define it as steel in the 420 grade range that Rocna used for quite some time, and you have a 620 anchor then they would be correct. However, if you define as "suspect" steel that doesn't meet the minimum specifications identified by the designer, then yes, you have one made of suspect steel. *If at that time you purchased your Rocna the company website was advertising that the anchor was made of 800 grade steel, then yes, you got screwed. *Whether you care or not is a matter of personal preference. *Whether the lower grade steel will matter to you is a matter of physics.*
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:00 PM   #27
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Steppen wrote:
*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask? *

*
Perhaps they are tired of being lied to by a company that seems unable to tell the truth? *Whether it is RINA certification or steel grades used, you really can take nothing these folks say as truthful. *Given that there are better manufactured products by companies not prone to rampant fabrication, why carry Rocnas? *Who needs the grief?
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:04 PM   #28
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Tidahapah wrote:
Carl,
I havn't used my Sarca Excell a hell of a lot as yet.Mainly due to this last 12 monts engine refit.
But once I get back to proper use I may try for some under water shots.
I must admit for the use I have had I am really glad I made the change from my old plough.



-- Edited by Tidahapah on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 12:23:43 AM
*What I am really curious to know is whether the videos posted by Anchorite prove out in the real world. *Based on those videos, the Excel outpulls the Supreme and the Rocna, while doing less damage to the seabed. *I have an "Earth First, then we'll log the other planets" *bumper sticker on my truck so I am not exactly what you'd call a rabid environmentalist, but I would rather do less damage than more when anchoring so I'm willing to pay a bit if a product really is superior in this area. *

Thanks, Ben. *I hope to see your thoughts on this in the future.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:21 PM   #29
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Perhaps they are tired of being lied to by a company that seems unable to tell the truth? *Whether it is RINA certification or steel grades used
FWIW the current version of the*Rocna website has a photo of their RINA certificate. The document is dated a few years ago.* So it would appear that that part of their story, at least,*is indeed true.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:24 PM   #30
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Quote:
Delfin wrote:Steppen wrote:
Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*
All Chinese Rocnas are made of steel no stronger that 620 yield MPa, which is a minimum of 10% and up to 25% weaker in the shank that the steel specification indicated as essential by the designer. *The reason for the range of values is because steel grades generally specify the minimum strength, and actual values can exceed that minimum by a fair amount. *

The current story from those not wanting to cover excessive warranty claims is that the 620 steel is "good enough", which it no doubt is depending on the stress it is put under. *When the distributors say that no anchor in the 33 pound range with suspect steel was shipped to N.A. they are not being accurate, depending on how you define "suspect". *If you define it as steel in the 420 grade range that Rocna used for quite some time, and you have a 620 anchor then they would be correct. However, if you define as "suspect" steel that doesn't meet the minimum specifications identified by the designer, then yes, you have one made of suspect steel. *If at that time you purchased your Rocna the company website was advertising that the anchor was made of 800 grade steel, then yes, you got screwed. *Whether you care or not is a matter of personal preference. *Whether the lower grade steel will matter to you is a matter of physics.*

*Hi there Delphin...

Yes, I took their message to mean that we have a 620 anchor, not the 800. For the anchoring we do, it will suffice. If we decide to head north to Alaska, or go around Vancouver Island, we'd rethink the anchor, but then we'd probably also rethink the entire boat.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:35 PM   #31
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Quote:
Steppen wrote:
So, I have quietly sat back through this whole Rocna/Manson/Whatever debate.* Anchors and their design are like politics and religion - no one is ever going to agree on everything.

I purchased a Rocna 33 from Fisheries Supply (Seattle) at the Seattle Boat Show in 2010.* I have been very happy with the anchor, never had any type of problem, and in the time we have had it, it has never drug and always sets quickly.* Used the anchor all the way up the inside passage to Alaska in 2010 and love it.* I kept the old Bruce 33 in the lazarette as my spare anchor.

The latest posts here have got me wondering.* I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.* I know that West Marine has offered exchanges on Rocnas to those who suspect they have a Chinese manufactured unit.*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask?* Don't know, but I have shot them an email asking if they can trace my anchor to a lot number or tell me if it is Chinese and suspect of the quality issues.* Also asking if they are refunding/exchanging anchors if one is shown as being substandard.* Will post the response back from Fisheries.

*

*
*Steppen,

*

The first 15kg/33lb units made with 620 shanks only arrived in Canada in*May 2010 after being shipped by sea from Shanghai on 32 April 2010.

Prior to this since November 2008 all 15kg shanks were made using 420 steel. This has now been confirmed by Linox who were the Rocna contacts dealing with the Chinese factory so you do not just have to take my word for it.

This means that your unit is a 420 shank model as I believe the Seattle Boat Show was in late January/ early Feb 2010.

Sorry to make waves with my first posting on this forum, but the record needs to be straight.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:50 PM   #32
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Quote:
grantking wrote:Steppen wrote:
So, I have quietly sat back through this whole Rocna/Manson/Whatever debate.* Anchors and their design are like politics and religion - no one is ever going to agree on everything.

I purchased a Rocna 33 from Fisheries Supply (Seattle) at the Seattle Boat Show in 2010.* I have been very happy with the anchor, never had any type of problem, and in the time we have had it, it has never drug and always sets quickly.* Used the anchor all the way up the inside passage to Alaska in 2010 and love it.* I kept the old Bruce 33 in the lazarette as my spare anchor.

The latest posts here have got me wondering.* I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.* I know that West Marine has offered exchanges on Rocnas to those who suspect they have a Chinese manufactured unit.*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask?* Don't know, but I have shot them an email asking if they can trace my anchor to a lot number or tell me if it is Chinese and suspect of the quality issues.* Also asking if they are refunding/exchanging anchors if one is shown as being substandard.* Will post the response back from Fisheries.

*

*
*Steppen,

*

The first 15kg/33lb units made with 620 shanks only arrived in Canada in*May 2010 after being shipped by sea from Shanghai on 32 April 2010.

Prior to this since November 2008 all 15kg shanks were made using 420 steel. This has now been confirmed by Linox who were the Rocna contacts dealing with the Chinese factory so you do not just have to take my word for it.

This means that your unit is a 420 shank model as I believe the Seattle Boat Show was in late January/ early Feb 2010.

Sorry to make waves with my first posting on this forum, but the record needs to be straight.

*Grant, I think it would be very helpful for the folks here to get your background, as it would lend significant weight to your comments.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:59 PM   #33
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Free Enterprise works

Quote:
Conrad wrote:grantking wrote:Steppen wrote:
So, I have quietly sat back through this whole Rocna/Manson/Whatever debate.* Anchors and their design are like politics and religion - no one is ever going to agree on everything.

I purchased a Rocna 33 from Fisheries Supply (Seattle) at the Seattle Boat Show in 2010.* I have been very happy with the anchor, never had any type of problem, and in the time we have had it, it has never drug and always sets quickly.* Used the anchor all the way up the inside passage to Alaska in 2010 and love it.* I kept the old Bruce 33 in the lazarette as my spare anchor.

The latest posts here have got me wondering.* I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.* I know that West Marine has offered exchanges on Rocnas to those who suspect they have a Chinese manufactured unit.*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask?* Don't know, but I have shot them an email asking if they can trace my anchor to a lot number or tell me if it is Chinese and suspect of the quality issues.* Also asking if they are refunding/exchanging anchors if one is shown as being substandard.* Will post the response back from Fisheries.

*

*
*Steppen,

*

The first 15kg/33lb units made with 620 shanks only arrived in Canada in*May 2010 after being shipped by sea from Shanghai on 32 April 2010.

Prior to this since November 2008 all 15kg shanks were made using 420 steel. This has now been confirmed by Linox who were the Rocna contacts dealing with the Chinese factory so you do not just have to take my word for it.

This means that your unit is a 420 shank model as I believe the Seattle Boat Show was in late January/ early Feb 2010.

Sorry to make waves with my first posting on this forum, but the record needs to be straight.

*Grant, I think it would be very helpful for the folks here to get your background, as it would lend significant weight to your comments.

*I was Production Manager / troubleshooter for Rocna from January 2009 until June 2010 during which time I oversaw production in China with regular visits there as well as design work, quality control, Rina certification, selection of metals and any other task required by Holdfast in relation to Rocna.

I was responsible for changing the metal being used from 420mpa UTS to 620mpa UTS after discovering the use of substandard materials that had resulted in shanks bending and failing worldwide. The change took place gradually from December 2009 through to June 2010 depending on the size of anchor shank.

I have detailed and comprehensive records of all production areas and shipments during my time there along with 1000's of interoffice memo's and emails to back up every thing I post on the various forums.

There are extensive postings made by me on the YBW forum under my user name GrantKing and on other forums under the user name marinextreme. All are factual postings and have not been refuted by Rocna.

I think that about covers it.

Grant


-- Edited by grantking on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 09:05:29 PM
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:10 PM   #34
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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m January 2009 until June 2010 during which time I oversaw production in China with regular visits there as well as design work, quality control, Rina certification, selection of metals and any other task required by Holdfast in relation to Rocna.

I was responsible for changing the metal being used from 420mpa UTS to 620mpa UTS after discovering the use of substandard materials that had resulted in shanks bending and failing worldwide.

I have detailed and comprehensive records of all production areas and shipments during my time there along with 1000's of interoffice memo's and emails to back up every thing I post on the various forums.

There are extensive postings made by me on the YBW forum under my user name GrantKing and on other forums under the user name marinextreme. All are factual postings and have not been refuted by Rocna.

I think that about covers it.

Grant
Thanks Grant - sorry to ask you to "out" yourself, as I'm sure that there will be a torrent of queries directed your way now, but there has been significant interest in the Rocna saga here for quite some time.

*
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:13 PM   #35
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Conrad wrote:If we decide to head north to Alaska, or go around Vancouver Island, we'd rethink the anchor, but then we'd probably also rethink the entire boat.
*I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle on this issue, Conrad.* There are two different issues here.* One is the whole bit about misleading specifications claimed by Peter Smith (I assume), the original Rocna company, and the subsequent purchaser, Holdfast and the manufacturing situation in China where, for whatever reason, the steel used was not the steel that was claimed to be used.

The other issue is whether the anchor you have is strong enough for the job. If you were taking your boat to the southwestern Pacific, where the design of the Rocna originated as an attempt to create an anchor that would set and hold more reliably in the open, windy, rough*anchorages that are common down there, you might have cause to rethink your anchor.

But for boating in the PNW, I don't think you have anything to worry about IF... your anchor is sized right for your boat.* It's easy to get all focused on one grade of steel vs another one and totally lose sight of what is really needed to hold your boat in place.* I have seen-- and you probably have too--- boats with really sorry-ass anchors on them.* Old, even slightly bent Danforth knock-offs, ancient CQRs, home-made*weld-ups*and--- more common than one might think--- anchors*very much undersized for the boat.* And we have seen these on boats which we have learned from the owners have gone up and down the Inside Passage any number of times, or to Desolation Sound, or to the west*coast of Vancouver Island.

Our boat came with a big Danforth knock-off of questionable*quality*with a slightly bent shank.* The boat had spent its whole life in SFO bay and the previous owners, at least, had anchored all the time up the rivers and in the delta and wherever people go in SFO bay.* So far as we could find out, they never had a problem with this truly pathetic anchor.

This is not a way of excusing what the Rocna/Holdfast organization did with regards to their product advertising and claims and denial of manufacturing problems in China.* Hopefully Canadian Metals will turn this around if they continue with the anchor.* But given some of the absolute crap anchors*I've seen on boats that are used and used a lot, I doubt your Rocna, regardless of whether it's 420 or 620 or 800 or whatever will do just fine for you up here.

It's been my observation-- and it's a big generalization with exceptions for sure---*that the boats that get used a lot by their owners often have the bare minimum that's needed to do the job for cost reasons.* They'd rather spend the money on actual boating than on the latest gee-whiz things, be it a plotter or anchor.* And they seem to have no problems at all.* The big fancy*status*hardware tends to be on the showroom boats*that never or hardly ever leave the slip.* Or if they do it's to go to another dock in another marina.

So my guess is that just about any*production*anchor you could pick--- including Rocna--- if it's sized right for your boat and you have the best type of rode for your anchoring conditions and windlass (if you have one)* will do the job just fine for you, particularly up here where protected anchorages are all over the place and never far away and the weather forecasting is actually very good.

I know of a 38' Island Gypsy tri-cabin*(I think it's 38') with a 20 pound Bruce on a combination rode.* This guy has been back and forth to SE Alaska more times than he can remember.* I think he's nuts with regard to his anchor type, size, and rode, but so far as I know he's never had a problem staying put.* Not something I'd ever try but it's worked fine for him.

So I don't think you should lose too much sleep or have nightmares about 420 vs 620 vs 800 vs ?. :-)

*

*
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:00 PM   #36
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RE: Free Enterprise works

Nicely said Marin and I concur with your train of thought.* My experience with both the previous Bruce and now with my 33# Rocna have been great in waters between Puget Sound and Southeast Alaska.* The Rocna sets quicker than the Bruce ever did and we have yet to drag anchor with the Rocna.* For the waters that*we*visit the 33# Rocna and 300 feet of all chain 5/16" rode on my*13,000 lb displacement boat is more than adequate.*

To Grant - Thank you for the info, it is gratifying to get input and confirmation from someone who was involved in the production.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:27 PM   #37
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Marin wrote:
Perhaps they are tired of being lied to by a company that seems unable to tell the truth? *Whether it is RINA certification or steel grades used
FWIW the current version of the*Rocna website has a photo of their RINA certificate. The document is dated a few years ago.* So it would appear that that part of their story, at least,*is indeed true.

*Negativo. *The RINA certificate pertains to a type certificate that presumes the anchor was made of the material Rocna said it was, which it wasn't. *The RINA certficate is also a fraud.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:40 PM   #38
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RE: Free Enterprise works

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Steppen wrote:
Nicely said Marin and I concur with your train of thought.* My experience with both the previous Bruce and now with my 33# Rocna have been great in waters between Puget Sound and Southeast Alaska.* The Rocna sets quicker than the Bruce ever did and we have yet to drag anchor with the Rocna.* For the waters that*we*visit the 33# Rocna and 300 feet of all chain 5/16" rode on my*13,000 lb displacement boat is more than adequate.*

To Grant - Thank you for the info, it is gratifying to get input and confirmation from someone who was involved in the production.
*If the anchor is made of Q620 it may perform ok in most circumstances even though Peter Smith said it wouldn't be and anyone making an anchor out of such steel should be ashamed of themselves. *If it is 420 steel, then it does matter because it isn't safe and will bend when a normal side load is experienced. *If it bends on wind shift in a load, it will no longer be an anchor. *

You can check the steel yourself if you like. Get a center punch and tap your chain to see what kind of indent it makes. *If G4, it will be about the same hardness as the 420. *Sand away a bit of the galvanizing on the Rocna and tap it using the same force. *If 620, you shouldn't make much of a dent. *If you the indent is equal to or greater than what you see on the chain, you have an anchor about half as strong as it is supposed to be. *If you want to keep using it, do so understanding what it is, regardless of the comforting words of others expressing hopeful opinions.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:28 AM   #39
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Delfin wrote:
*Negativo. *The RINA certificate pertains to a type certificate that presumes the anchor was made of the material Rocna said it was, which it wasn't. *The RINA certficate is also a fraud.

I would be very surprised if Rocna or Holdfast and particularly Canada Metals which is very large international corporation with resident lawyers (CM is the owner of Rocna as of September, 2011) would be stupid enough to put a fraudulent certificate from an international certification organization on a public website where RINA is undoubtedly well aware of its existence.* That would be opening themselves up to legal action that would make the Chinese metals screw up look like a birthday party.

Here is the RINA certificate they supposedly don't have.* The earlier date I had recalled seeing is the date of the seabed test done in New Zealand in 2008.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 17th of November 2011 03:39:06 AM
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:54 AM   #40
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Free Enterprise works

Quote:
Marin wrote:.......People who have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out.* If it ever happens to them, then they will have had it happen to them.* There have been enough people who have written about or posted their experiences of having this happen to make us not want to use a slotted anchor, or the slot in a*slotted*anchor.................
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__________________________________
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Ok, well I don't want to flog a dead horse here, but as this is certainly not my experience, and I seem to be one of the few on this forum with actual experience of using a slotted shanked anchor, I am forced to conclude this failing, if it is a true failing, is unique to the Manson version, as I have google slotted anchors tripping out and hundreds of testimonials about both the Sarca and Manson Supreme until my eyes were watering and have not encountered one mention of a personally reported real instance of it happening and the consequences, although some referred to it as a theoretical risk "they had heard of somewhere".
Quote:
If it did happen, I can only conceive of it being a fairly freakish occurrence under very light conditions, because if there is any tension on the rode at all then the pull will firmly remain on the end of the shank, and it will behave exactly like any orthodox, non-slotted shank.* If it happened in very light airs, then so what?* No real harm done as the anchor will re-set immediately there is any real pull applied to it.* Having dived down on my anchor in light conditons, as many others no doubt have, the chain is seen to wander all over the bottom, looping round heaps of mud and weed etc, such that the chance of the chain dragging back virtually over and parallel to the shank in the reverse direction is statistically highly unlikely.* Any minor divergence from that condition and the shackle recommended to be used effectively grips in the slot and will not slide forward.* Maybe the Manson shank allows this to occur more easily?*
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I do find the fact Manson have already launched this new improved version of the Supreme called the Boss, interesting...almost an admission the other had issues.* I suspect the extra wide end part of the slot is so it can pivot to prevent the sideways stress on the shackle others have mentioned,* as a reason to put the u part through the shank hole.* However, with the trip slot it is necessary for it to work properly to use the correct heavy grade stainless shackle and put the pin/bolt part through the shank slot, so it can slide when needed up the slot without snagging.
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Marin if you could post a few links to some of those reports it would be really interesting to see them.
-- Edited by Peter B on Thursday 17th of November 2011 07:57:02 AM
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