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Old 10-08-2013, 01:16 AM   #1
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Eric's Dream Job



(poached the photo from here http://www.blueoceantackle.com/anchors_and_chains.htm )
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:24 AM   #2
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That's a monster indeed and the ship it's attached to is probably a monster also. I wonder how this would stack up in a weight of anchor to weight of vessel relationship. When seen on ships they look so small. But larger pleasure craft seem to visually have smaller anchors also. If I was to find out that ships have anchors that would equate to an very small anchor on my boat I'd wonder how they could hold the boat.

I saw this yacht in Craig AK a few years ago and it looks like it's Navy anchor gets used. If newer anchors are so much better why does this very valuable yacht depend on an anchor we all think it has so little holding power it's practically useless? It has a very important job and I'm inclined to think the people that put it there probably know what the're doing. Actually it could have been "put there" by the NA that designed the boat as the recession in the hull that the anchor resides in looks much like the other recessions on the sides of the hull. For boats this size there is probably a maritime standard (perhaps insurance related) that specifies the size of numerous types of anchors similar to the Navy anchor. Manson makes anchors for boats like this that look much like this Navy anchor. They call them a "Kedge" and the smallest is 112lbs. I saw on a website another company offering Navy anchors as small as 100lbs.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:35 AM   #3
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What do you think? 4 to 1, Anchor vs. Willy? Probably not big enough.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:51 AM   #4
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For boats this size there is probably a maritime standard (perhaps insurance related) that specifies the size of numerous types of anchors similar to the Navy anchor.

http://www.iacs.org.uk/vdunifiedrequ...r_a_pdf148.pdf
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #5
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Rick I made that comment hoping you'd respond. Haven't figured it out yet. What is "EN"? And what are "Bower" anchors?
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:50 PM   #6
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That's a monster indeed and the ship it's attached to is probably a monster also. I wonder how this would stack up in a weight of anchor to weight of vessel relationship. When seen on ships they look so small. But larger pleasure craft seem to visually have smaller anchors also. If I was to find out that ships have anchors that would equate to an very small anchor on my boat I'd wonder how they could hold the boat.

I saw this yacht in Craig AK a few years ago and it looks like it's Navy anchor gets used. If newer anchors are so much better why does this very valuable yacht depend on an anchor we all think it has so little holding power it's practically useless? It has a very important job and I'm inclined to think the people that put it there probably know what the're doing. Actually it could have been "put there" by the NA that designed the boat as the recession in the hull that the anchor resides in looks much like the other recessions on the sides of the hull. For boats this size there is probably a maritime standard (perhaps insurance related) that specifies the size of numerous types of anchors similar to the Navy anchor. Manson makes anchors for boats like this that look much like this Navy anchor. They call them a "Kedge" and the smallest is 112lbs. I saw on a website another company offering Navy anchors as small as 100lbs.
One thing for sure is that that hawse fitting would not accommodate a Rocna. Okay, or a Sarca, or a Manson Supreme, etc.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #7
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Conrad,

Shouldn't take much creativity to solve that problem. Do you remember the way the Fortress was carried on that CG boat in the pic less than a week ago? As I recall it was basically a hawse pipe through the stem of the bow. And of course one could always use a small crane on the bow to lift the modern anchor up on deck. That's the way yachts did it before about 1955. That was one of the advantages of a Danforth or Kedge (Yachtsman's anchor). They could easily be stored on deck. Makes for a better looking yacht too. A modern hydraulic crane could lower the mast down on the deck when through putting the anchor in it's cradle. And of course a giant bow roller could easily be fabricated .... but the thing may get in the way of mooring or other operations. Lots of options.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:43 PM   #8
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Rick I made that comment hoping you'd respond. Haven't figured it out yet. What is "EN"? And what are "Bower" anchors?
I couldn't get the link to do anything....slow here today I guess, blowing 30NW and the internets are downwind......

EN is probably Equipment Number if that's a class document. The EN is a function of vessel size and windage and is used for sizing anchors, cables, etc.

Bower is just your largest anchor, classed ships will carry two of the same weight. Long ago the Best Bower was in the starboard hawsepipe, the Small Bower is in the Port hawsepipe, they are of the same size. Today they are just port and starboard bowers.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:33 PM   #9
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TAD .... Glad you're here. I'm trying to find out how many pounds of anchor is typically used to anchor how many tons of ship. We can all quickly compute that for our own boats and w the ships numbers we can learn or compare the difference between our boats and the same relationship of anchor to vessel weight of big ships.

I'm thinking their anchors must be small but only because they look small. And that dosn't make sense as we know the holding power of typical ships anchors is very low (comparatively) to our small boat anchors.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:22 PM   #10
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TAD .... Glad you're here. I'm trying to find out how many pounds of anchor is typically used to anchor how many tons of ship. We can all quickly compute that for our own boats and w the ships numbers we can learn or compare the difference between our boats and the same relationship of anchor to vessel weight of big ships.

I'm thinking their anchors must be small but only because they look small. And that dosn't make sense as we know the holding power of typical ships anchors is very low (comparatively) to our small boat anchors.
I guess it depends on whether you think a 40,000 pound anchor is small?

The comparison is possible, I can give you a spreadsheet to calculate EN, but you need a ship for which you have all the dimensions. And I don't think you'll find it useful. Proportionally you'll find ship's anchors are small, but their chains are huge. For instance, in the ABS rules for Motor Yachts, for an anchor of 200 LBS (You must carry two of these) the required chain is 85 fathoms of 1/2". That's 1400 pounds of chain times two, plus 400 pounds of anchors. These are the old style stockless ship's anchor, most class society's will let you reduce anchor weight (but not chain size) by 25% for a "modern" high-holding power anchor, this would be anything like a danforth, CQR, Bruce, Delta, Manson, etc.

Also note that ships often drag anchor in high winds, it's just not that big a deal because the bridge is supposed to be maned 24/7. When ship's are mothballed without crew it's always to mooring buoys and they drop their anchors, both of them.....
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:39 AM   #11
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Thanks TAD,
Food for thought. Lots of variables like multiple anchors and extreme variations in weight for freighters.

I found Titanic's specs.
"water disp" 66000 tons. Anchors 4000 tons ea. = 6600-1 ratio.

My Willard,
Disp. 16000lbs. Anchor 18lbs. = 800-1 ratio.

So my gut feeling seems somewhat correct that 1lb of anchor on a ship has MUCH more weight to hold back.

If Willy had the same weight to hold as Titanic her anchor would weigh less than 3lbs .... IF i figured it correctly and I'm not great w numbers. Looks like my anchor is way too big.

Tried to find the anchor weight of an Alaska state ferry ... but failed. If I had better numbers better comparisons could be made.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:59 AM   #12
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My gift to you Eric...have fun

http://www.uscg.mil/d13/cfvs/acsa/AC...s/ABS3-5-1.pdf
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:27 AM   #13
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Eric

For the Titanic numbers you posted, that works out to 17:1 or at 16,000 lbs for Willy a 940 pound anchor!

Where did you get a 4000 ton anchor? That seems pretty heavy.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:32 AM   #14
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Also note that ships often drag anchor in high winds, it's just not that big a deal because the bridge is supposed to be maned 24/7. When ship's are mothballed without crew it's always to mooring buoys and they drop their anchors, both of them.....
No mooring buoys here at the fast-disappearing Suisun Bay reserve fleet.

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Old 10-09-2013, 02:12 AM   #15
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Eric,

Here is some more anchor info for you.

Big E Statistics

Designation: USS Enterprise (CVN-65)
Keel Laid: February 4, 1958
Launched: September 24, 1960
Commissioned: November 25, 1961
Overall Length: 1,123'
Width (at widest point): 257'
Height (from keel to mast): 250'
Area of Flight Deck: 4.47 acres
Area of Hangar Bay: 216,000 sq. feet
Displacement: 93,000 tons fully-loaded
75,000 tons without airwing, jet fuel, or ordnance
Crew: 5,500 (airwing + ship's company)
3,500 (ship's company only)
Nuclear Reactors: Eight
Horsepower: 280,000
Top Speed: 30+ knots
Propellors: Four, each measures 18' diameter
Rudders: Four, each weighs 35 tons
Anchors: Two, each weighs 32 tons

Each anchor chain is 1,080 feet long, and consists of over 700 links of 369 pounds each. Each anchor chain weighs 113 tons.

The Displacement/Anchor ratio is 2906:1.

For your Willie, using the same ratio, you would need an anchor of only 5.5 lb. . . . . . .

The scaling is obviously not linear.

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Old 10-09-2013, 07:16 AM   #16
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(poached the photo from here Anchors and chains and marine equipment. )
Blue Ocean Tackle is a great site! I see they also are offering the Black Pearl for sale Pirate Ship For Sale
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:15 AM   #17
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Murray,
Yes it's a can of worms and TAD hinted of that in a previous post.

EN??? I think I'll just leave that one lie. Bower? Yet another name for an anchor.

Tom I got the 4000 ton anchor number from the Google Search anchor images. One thumbnail gave some specs for Titanic. She was rather large .. Right? Over 1000' long.

Mark I remember seeing those old ships when I was 19. Three of us in a 1940 Chevy coupe. First time to California. Still remember the very warm sun and huge palm trees. Had our first frost last night.

Larry,
Great old stuff. I think the Titanic's rudder was 116 tons. Still wasn't enough rudder when they needed it. It was made of multiple pieces.
5.5lbs EH? Well that's more than I figured.
1961 .... That's when I joined the Navy. The Big E was the star of the fleet then.
Not linear? You mean I don't get a 32 ton Bower? Or do you mean the ratio should be much the same for ships AND boats. Well maybe there's more of those guys say'in their anchor isn't big enough until their friends are making fun of their huge anchor. We even had a thread "Bigger is Better" or someth'in like that. If you adhere to the philosophy of "get the next size up" theory one may be inclined to do that twice or start w a blown up number. Then get bigger yet. I started that w Willy. She came w a 13lb Danforth. I've used heavier anchors since then up to 35lbs. And I haven't dragged w any of them. I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of excess weight insures that machines will be less effective than they would be if they didn't have that excess weight. Now that I know my anchor only needs to be 6lbs maybe I should be scaling down instead of up from my 18lb Bower.

Well I think this has shown what I expected and I shouldn't be anchoring downwind of a big ship in a blow.

Thanks all for the help.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:29 AM   #18
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Eric,

That's for sure, in fact, just stay away from ships and their anchors!

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Old 10-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #19
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Thanks TAD,
Food for thought. Lots of variables like multiple anchors and extreme variations in weight for freighters.

I found Titanic's specs.
"water disp" 66000 tons. Anchors 4000 tons ea. = 6600-1 ratio.

My Willard,
Disp. 16000lbs. Anchor 18lbs. = 800-1 ratio.

So my gut feeling seems somewhat correct that 1lb of anchor on a ship has MUCH more weight to hold back.

If Willy had the same weight to hold as Titanic her anchor would weigh less than 3lbs .... IF i figured it correctly and I'm not great w numbers. Looks like my anchor is way too big.

Tried to find the anchor weight of an Alaska state ferry ... but failed. If I had better numbers better comparisons could be made.
Which is why the E number takes windage as well as weight into account. Boats with the highest windage (sailboats with tall rigs and multi-story boxy powerboats) need bigger anchors and heavier/longer chain.....
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:51 PM   #20
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Just purchased a 175 lb. Mantus will let everyone know how it does, It's going to replace a50kg claw on a 54' trawler with 40 ton load. We will see what the deal is. We travel alot and I'm trying to worry less. I'm new to this site and just figuring out everything.Will post what the anchor lives up to.
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