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Old 08-14-2010, 10:38 PM   #141
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Well * *..Ive got Firefox onboard now but I think I need my Java updated and perhaps other stuff. My link icon is still grey. I'm hoping Sarah gets up here to help me as I don't have the time now to sort it out w the info you guy's gave me.I have decided the hyd winch was not the best for us. Too much money to complete the install and it's too big for the boat. So I'm anchor shopping again. Marin * *..still got that Bad Boy Bruce? I could use it as my rock anchor and find a near perfect general purpose anchor to go with it. Perhaps I wouldn't need another. I wonder if the Ray is much better than the Bruce. Must be structurally but I mean in performance. It's 8:30 now and fairly dark.
Winter's coming for us Marin and summer for Peter.
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Old 08-15-2010, 04:01 AM   #142
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Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Eric, I think you'll find that now you have Firefox up and running, if you copy the URL from the address box or your bookmarks/Favorites in I/E, and paste it into the advanced text editor, the highlight it again, the greyed out hyperlink icon will un-grey, if I can coin that term, then you follow the prompts like I went over a post or two ago. Or, use Marin's tip he gave me on another thread. Type in http://then paste in the URL you wan...f with another (don't forget the forward slash in that second bracket), and voila - live link - see.....



-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 15th of August 2010 04:02:32 AM

-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 15th of August 2010 04:06:49 AM

-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 15th of August 2010 04:07:31 AM
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:43 AM   #143
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Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

*
Marin * *..still got that Bad Boy Bruce? I could use it as my rock anchor and find a near perfect general purpose anchor to go with it.
Our Bruce is doing a job for which it is eminently suited--- propping open a door in our garage.* So far, we have not experienced any reliabiilty problems with it in this function.* After our experiences with a Bruce anchor I would not sell or give this one to anyone because I would not want to bear any responsiblity for what would happen.

The live link tip doesn't show in Peter's post because when he typed it in it made his sentence "live" and you can't see the code at either end that did this.* So what you do is type open-bracket ([), then the letters url, then close-bracket (]), then paste in the url that you copied from your browser's address window, and then right after the url you type open-bracket, forward-slash (/), the letters url, and close-bracket.* This should highlight whatever you put between the two bracketed live-link codes.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 16th of August 2010 11:47:20 AM
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:44 PM   #144
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

There's a good market for genuine Bruce anchors out there. I sold mine on T&T in a heartbeat. It was ballasting my lazarette!
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #145
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Oh, that's just ridiculous that a Fortress anchor won't hold in mud. Makes the rest of the article suspect.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:05 PM   #146
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

The Practical Sailor review of heavier anchors Marin provided above is very interesting, and confirms my experience.* The Bruce type anchor doesn't seem to perform well in lighter weights when compared to Rocna/Manson, Fortress, etc.* However, when you start getting over 100#, they hold as well as any.* Mine is 176# and when set would appear to have more metal under the sea bed than comparable weights in other designs.* Of particular interest is the result that the Bruce type set quicker with less scope than either the Manson or the Rocna.* I guess the bottom line is that if you need an anchor less than 100# or so, the Bruce may not be your best choice.* Over that, they are hard to beat.* The ones originally developed to anchor oil rigs were not the 44# models.....
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:40 PM   #147
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

I have spent the last 35 years at sea in a professional capacity mostly as Master.

During this time I have performed many anchorings on all types of bottoms in all types of weather conditions and depths of water on vessels bigger than we are talking here.

In the late 60's early 70's we used the admirality pattern anchor predominately and from mid 70's onward the plough.

I could count on both hands or less the number of times the plough let me down.

A lot of anchors discussed here in this topic are knock offs of the plough. I currently have a manson on my boat that was there when I purchased it otherwise I would have had a plough.

There are good and bad points about all of these anchors however apart form a bullwagga I would not rush out and buy any of them for the money they are asking for them.

It basically boils down to "a good tradesman never blames his tools"
This applies to anchoring also.

If you have the correct anchor for your vessel taking into account hull shape, windage and weight of vessel and matched to the correct weight chain or chain / warp combination and the correct scope for the conditions of 5:1 or 7:1 then there should not be a problem. 3:1 one should only be used in shallow water and for short term anchoring. Never for overnight.

I would recommend at least 70 metres of all chain for normal anchoring up to 10 metres and 100 metres or more for deeper water.

Anchor tests are a guide and often performed with less than ideal techniques. They are a guide only and not gospel.

I can't say any more on the subject other than have a good look at your setup and make sure it is fit for purpose then make sure your technique is right and you should have few problems.

Anchors will always drag for one reason or another from time to time you just need to read the signs.

Allan
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:53 PM   #148
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Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Quote:
Keith wrote:

Oh, that's just ridiculous that a Fortress anchor won't hold in mud. Makes the rest of the article suspect.
Keith is right.* I have read in more places than I can remember that the ideal bottoms for the Danforth anchor are sand and mud.* Since the Fortress is basically a Danforth design, I would think its performance would be similar, and that in*sand*or mud the Fortress would be among the top performers across the board.* It's certainly spelled out that way in most of the anchor tests I've seen*that include a Fortress.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 17th of August 2010 09:26:24 PM
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:23 AM   #149
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

"In the late 60's early 70's we used the admirality pattern anchor predominately and from mid 70's onward the plough."

Allan, I'm having trouble visualising a ship of any size with a plough anchor. it just does not compute. I thought they all used big, heavy, Danforthy type dual fluke anchors sticking down out of hawse holes either side of the bow. How big a vessel are we talking about here that would use a plough?
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:03 AM   #150
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

We have a bruce on our trawler right now that was there when I bought the boat. I do not like it at all. I miss my delta plough anchor we had on our 38 sedan previously and will be buying another one ASAP.
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:18 AM   #151
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

AllanY,That was a breath of fresh air. There's so much hype about these "next generation" anchors*it seems to good to be true. And we all know what that means. On what seemed to be the biggest and best anchor test about 5 next generation anchors tested with 20 times the holding power of most all the old standby anchors like CQR, Danforth and Bruce. TWENTY TIMES. How could these old anchors have kept the boats of the world off the beach and rocks if that were true? And at the bottom there was an advertisement by guru Peter Smith about his next gen anchor. What does that say about Practical Sailor Magazine? I've never seen a copy of PS mag but I'll bet there's full page adds for next gen anchors. I do think many of the comparisons are probably valid though. I was hoping on this thread more would tell of their experiences anchoring and build a basement of knowledge to get one through all the hype and old wives tales. Probably 25% of our members have the Bruce anchor and feel it needs replacement now and that may not be justified. Interesting how the Plough has driven or influenced most of the NG designs.
Thanks again for your post Allan.


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Old 08-18-2010, 09:42 AM   #152
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

I love all this anchor talk. I had no idea so many trawlermen were doing that much anchoring. It would seem with all this debate that a "best" anchor would "surface."
I have a 20kg SS Force on my bow and I have no idea how well it performs. It's purely for "looks." I use a Danforth on the bow and a Bruce for my stern when needed. (Which is almost never. )* The Force looks great..Doesn't it?
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:33 AM   #153
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

I found this interesting.
The CQR.
Legend has it that in 1933, Cambridge professor Geoffrey Taylor conceived the first plow anchor, the CQR ( the name being a faux acronyme for SECURE ). I always wondered what it stood for. Sort of like the band NXS. for in excess. anyway it was to outfit World War II hot air balloon missions.

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Old 08-18-2010, 03:05 PM   #154
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Peter

Often small ships up to about 150 ft carried a plough (CQR)

It depends on where they carried their anchor if on a bow roller then it was a plough and if through a hawse pipe then a dreadnaught or danforth type anchor

Whilst working around the islands we used ploughs in the main but it depended on the type of vessel with landing barges using dreadnaught or similar and these anchors were holding large vessels with no issues.

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Old 08-18-2010, 07:58 PM   #155
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


Interesting how the Plough has driven or influenced most of the NG designs.
The design of the three roll-bar anchors--- Rocna, Sarca, and Manson Supreme--- is the exact opposite of the plow design.* Where the plow is shaped to facilitate forward movement through the bottom (like a plow being pullled by a horse or*tractor, a concept that has never made sense to me from an anchoring point of view), the Rocna/Sarca/Manson are spade designs.* The*fluke, when buried, resists forward movement just like*a shovel blade.

There may be other NG anchors that got their inspiration from the plow anchors like the CQR, but the roll-bar anchors aren't among them.*
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:26 PM   #156
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

All anchors are "shaped to facilitate fwd movement through the bottom". How else are they to penetrate the bottom so they can resist movement mostly in the other direction and hold a boat in place. Anchors that don't penetrate don't anchor. The CQR has the outward and upward shaped fluke much like the Delta. Peter Smith, Manson and others learned from Spade that a concave surface seemed to be better for holding while CQR, Delta, Hydrobubble and SARCA perhaps tried to optimize for penetration. Both obviously are needed. The CQR was the original. It was unique. It was not a descendant of any other.*I don't even think at that time there any other single fluke anchors but ??? I would say the Spade is a closer relative to the Rocna than CQR but most all modern anchors descended from the CQR. The Rocna just traded the tip ballast for the roll bar and I'm not sure that was a 100% positive trade. The Spade and Delta have weak short scope performance too. I think the next "next generation" anchors will perhaps incorporate the advantages of the independent shank movement of the Danforth types w the Spade like fluke. I know it's kinda like having to admit you descended from Neanderthals but*that's fact too.


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Old 08-19-2010, 05:19 AM   #157
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Marin, Eric made a good point there.* That is one area where Sarca diverges from the Manson and Rocna, in that the fluke is convex, rather than concave.* The reason is exactly the point re the way a plough works, by digging in and furrowing/burrowing down, then if its resistance to foward motion is overcome, it slices forwards under the surface still, and in a controlled manor, without dosturbing the surface very much until it takes up again, so there is no sudden lurch free, and it brings up a lot less bottom on retrieval.* By contrast, there is the potential for those like Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme, filling up with bottom until they can hold no more then popping out, or gouging a huge trench behind them, depending on the nature of that bottom.* The Sarca inventor experimented with a concave fluke and in the end gave it away, because of that feature.* The real issue with the CQR/plough is the tendency to not dig in, and if it does not, the hinged shank lets it just bounce its way across the bottom.* Once they do set, they hold quite well.* Delta, Ultra, and the Sarca Excel solve this by variations on a clever design of the edge of the fluke, and doing away with that hinged shank.* My off-putting experience was all to often where we cruise having the 'bounce-over-the-bottom' happen, thank goodness noticed before dark and we retired for the night.
Note convex fluke in pic below....
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:33 PM   #158
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Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

You two are missing the point. There is a difference between moving forward to penetrate the bottom and moving forward once the anchor is IN the bottom. The plow anchor (CQR etc) is still aligned to move forward through the bottom once it's set. Just like a farmer's plow. The only thing keeping it from acting like a farmer's plow and slicing smoothly forward through the bottom (and thus not holding the boat) is the fact there is a second blade welded or cast onto the other side opposing the the opposite blade. So the theory is that as the plow moves forward after setting, which it will, the two blades together force the blade deeper into the bottom to the point where the resistance against the blades is such that they won't move forward anymore.

The concave spade-configuration, on the other hand, is shaped like a shovel blade. So when it's set, it's entire shape resists forward movement though the bottom. If you stick a shovel into the dirt and then tie a rope on the handle at the top of the blade and then pull forward parallel to the ground, you're pulling against the whole flat of the blade which, with its concave shape, resists any movement forward and it won't move forward unless the dirt gives way in front of it.

The plow, on the other hand, is sitting there with its blades streamlined to move*in the forward direction. The only thing preventing it from simply "plowing" through the bottom is the downward force created by the curvature of the two opposing flukes. This works, obviously, and most of the time works quite well. But I believe it is still not as inherently resistive to forward movement through the bottom as a spade-shaped fluke.

This is a whole different deal than setting the anchor, where, yes, the shape obviously has to be designed to penetrate and dig in. But that's only half the story. The other half is how the blade or fluke shape behaves once it's in the bottom and is being pulled on. This is where I believe that anchors like the Rocna, Sarca, and Manson Supreme outperorm all the other designs.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 19th of August 2010 01:37:08 PM
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:17 PM   #159
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Marin,

You've been reading too much PS.


Not one of your super hot roll bar anchors can even outperform a Fortress, an old Danforth design.


I understand what your'e saying and Iv'e heard it from PS. Fact is the roll bars PREVENT the anchors from burring completely. As soon as the roll bar goes under penetration stops.I don't know how the RB anchors perform as well as they do but they do very well. The Plow anchor is not designed to plow despite what PS says. It's designed to go down like a spade (as you say) and then (because of the geometry of the shank, rode and bottom it acts like a deadman to the boat and rode. All anchors do that. The Rocna, Spade and others have a concave fluke that gives them a 5% edge on holding power, perhaps a tad more but it's not as stable as the convex form. So your'e correct when you say,


"But I believe it is still not as inherently resistive to forward movement through the bottom as a spade-shaped fluke."


Your roll bar anchors are excellent in most situations but the're only fair in at least two
situations that are important and even your favorite claw anchor does better.


Eric
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:41 PM   #160
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RE: Choosing the Right Anchor for Your Trawler

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,


You've been reading too much PS.


Fact is the roll bars PREVENT the anchors from burring completely.





Eric---

I have no idea what PS is.* And the roll bar does not prevent the anchor from burying completely.* I've seen footage, of above-water*tests*as well as underwater footage of Rocnas burying themselves so deep that in the case of the above water sets someone had to dig down with a shovel*to find the rollbar and then use that to horse the anchor up out of the bottom.

I daresay it won't do this in every kind of bottom and it won't do it at all unless it really gets hauled on, but neither will any other anchor.
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