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Old 07-28-2014, 09:53 PM   #81
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+1 to all that.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM   #82
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Brian,

I hope you do understand that there is no way you can satisfy this crowd. Even if you did 100,000 tests with every imaginable variable thought of, many would still not be satisfied and attempt to pick the methods and results apart.

If I were you, I would forget trying to defend, justify or explain every detail to this crowd. Just show them the report when completed and let them have at it with each other. It will be both entertaining and ridiculous, as most anchor threads are. They'll probably also make some newbies heads explode.

You're doing the boating community a service here. It may not be perfect, but it seems as though we'll get valuable information from it, and, I for one, am appreciative.
Agree 100%...the more justifications are made...the less respect I have...

2 assumptions that stand out...that we are that stupid not to pick out what's reality about anchors in general and the reality of the test's limitations in general.

Just get on with the tests the best that can be done for the moment, be honest and let the cards fall where the test has laid them...
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:11 PM   #83
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That's what he's doing Scott.

Just stepping up to the bar and revealing the details we are interested in.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:19 PM   #84
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Brian,

I hope you do understand that there is no way you can satisfy this crowd. Even if you did 100,000 tests with every imaginable variable thought of, many would still not be satisfied and attempt to pick the methods and results apart.

If I were you, I would forget trying to defend, justify or explain every detail to this crowd. Just show them the report when completed and let them have at it with each other. It will be both entertaining and ridiculous, as most anchor threads are. They'll probably also make some newbies heads explode.

You're doing the boating community a service here. It may not be perfect, but it seems as though we'll get valuable information from it, and, I for one, am appreciative.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:15 AM   #85
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Brian,

I hope you do understand that there is no way you can satisfy this crowd. Even if you did 100,000 tests with every imaginable variable thought of, many would still not be satisfied and attempt to pick the methods and results apart.

If I were you, I would forget trying to defend, justify or explain every detail to this crowd. Just show them the report when completed and let them have at it with each other. It will be both entertaining and ridiculous, as most anchor threads are. They'll probably also make some newbies heads explode.

You're doing the boating community a service here. It may not be perfect, but it seems as though we'll get valuable information from it, and, I for one, am appreciative.
Thanks for the advice Nsail, I will follow up next week with the results.

All the best,
Brian
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:21 AM   #86
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>FF I hate the expression "knockoff". <

I thought knock off would be more PC than copy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:22 AM   #87
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>FF I hate the expression "knockoff". <

I thought knock off would be more PC than copy.
In one way they're all knock offs. It's just a very simple concept. You take metal of some type and shape it in some way to try to anchor. But it's the subtleties, the fine details, that end up distinguishing them. Change the shape slightly. Change the way it connects to chain. Change the material ever so slightly. Even different grades of the same metal. I spent my career in soft goods and there's nothing new there as the products have looked similar for centuries. Yet there is new as materials and treatments of materials and methods of manufacturing change ever so slightly. So what looks the same often isn't quite. Sometimes then the apparent "knock offs" may not work as well and other times they may actually be an improvement.

This isn't at all to minimize praise for the creativity of anchor makers. In fact it is the opposite. They take a concept that has existed for centuries and make minor alterations to it, work in very careful detail, to improve it. But in some ways they all have aspects of being knock offs, but don't underestimate the fact that what looks or seems much the same may perform quite differently.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:19 AM   #88
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FF,
No "copy" is better. One can make a very good quality copy taking time to do a good job. A "knockoff" is a cheap quick and dirty imitation meant to fool people into thinking it's a good copy of the original.

Here's a "copy" of the only anchor test I know of that was done on a mud bottom. My first XYZ was the one in this test. It was an amazing anchor but I usually could not get it to set in anything but mud. It's in the landfill at Thorne Bay now.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PracticalSailor-April06 copy 2.pdf (698.2 KB, 46 views)
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:16 AM   #89
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Here is another mud bottom test.

SOFT MUD BOTTOM ANCHOR TEST
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:15 PM   #90
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Capt.Bill11,
Thanks for the input Bill but I'm not impressed. How could anybody have trouble getting an anchor to set in mud. Unbelievable. They must have thrown the whole rode over the stern in a heap (they basically said as much) and then dragged the tangled up mess. The Claw is known to be one of the best and fastest setting anchors known.

But I'm not surprised the Super Max did well. With it's huge and wide fluke (and if it's used) the adjustable shank mud should be IMO an easy task. Can't imagine it setting on a relatively hard bottom. Like FF says ... Several anchors for different bottoms.

Again thanks. I'll read it more as I'm into anchors.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:33 PM   #91
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Yeah the setting issues are odd. But if it was very soupy mud I guess I could see it. They also didn't mention as I recall if they were using those mud shoes you get with a Fortress on the Fortress at the time of the test.
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:07 PM   #92
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Yeah the setting issues are odd. But if it was very soupy mud I guess I could see it. They also didn't mention as I recall if they were using those mud shoes you get with a Fortress on the Fortress at the time of the test.
Capt.Bill11, from the image of the Fortress, it didn't look like the Mud Palms were installed for whatever reason. We have included them inside the box with every anchor for the past 20 years or so, and with instructions to permanently install them.

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Old 07-29-2014, 04:35 PM   #93
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Capt.Bill11, from the image of the Fortress, it didn't look like the Mud Palms were installed for whatever reason. We have included them inside the box with every anchor for the past 20 years or so, and with instructions to permanently install them.

Brian
Interesting that you say that the mud palm should be installed permanently. Did that recommendation change over the years? For some reason I recall that it was optional in the past.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:43 PM   #94
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Interesting that you say that the mud palm should be installed permanently. Did that recommendation change over the years? For some reason I recall that it was optional in the past.
The Mud Palms were initially an option in the early years (late 80s-early 90s) and were available for free to anyone who called or sent in a card.
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:03 PM   #95
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The Mud Palms were initially an option in the early years (late 80s-early 90s) and were available for free to anyone who called or sent in a card.
Great, I remember something totally useless from decades ago. Now if I could only remember where I left my car keys yesterday.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:26 AM   #96
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Chesapeake mud? I'm putting my money on the Danforth. During Irene I didn't even come close to budging.
Just discovered this subject thread, and I'm reading thru it.

Long ago when I first moved to Annapolis Md to get involved in the boat business I lived aboard my 47' wood ketch which I anchored in the harbor of Annapolis (pre moorings). I had a sun awning over the deck, so my 'windage' at anchor was pretty substantial. We would get these summer squalls ever so often, and I was always fearful of the boat dragging its anchor,...which it did very often.

So what anchor was I using? I had discovered an anchor down in Fl that I used quite successfully out thru the Bahamas for 9 months. It was a relatively new product 'Wishbone' anchor (I'll see if I can dig up an old pic).
It was great in that sand covered coral of the Bahamas. It's single point fluke was well balance in line with the anchor rode, and it would quickly find a place to dig in. It would always lay 'flat' with its fluke pointed right at the ground, and on either face (upside down or rightside up). It would never foul its own anchor rode. And if it broke loose upon swinging it would quickly find another place to grab on to. BUT, what was its shortcomings? Annapolis harbor would test that. It's fluke area was just TOO SMALL for that soft mud on the bottom of the harbor. It would drag thru that soft mud when the wind really got the boat tugging at it.

The Danforth style won out, much better fluke area for the same weight/size of anchor.

With that in mind I eventually had a chance to test out a lighter weight version of the Danforth....the Fortress. My experience with these anchors down in the Keys was that they were just too light to grab the bottom quickly....they tended to skip along the bottom for a greater distance than I preferred. And what had me most worried about that situation was, if I were to swing around at anchor at night and the anchor become dislodged, how would it be on getting ITSELF reset fairly quickly. I was very much less than enthusiastic.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:47 AM   #97
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Wishbone Anchor

Yes it was discussed previously on this forum, and here is a pic:

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Old 07-30-2014, 10:02 AM   #98
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With that in mind I eventually had a chance to test out a lighter weight version of the Danforth....the Fortress. My experience with these anchors down in the Keys was that they were just too light to grab the bottom quickly....they tended to skip along the bottom for a greater distance than I preferred. And what had me most worried about that situation was, if I were to swing around at anchor at night and the anchor become dislodged, how would it be on getting ITSELF reset fairly quickly. I was very much less than enthusiastic.
And the lesson is to use a different anchor on that type of bottom??
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:17 AM   #99
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For the folks that anchor overnight with a single anchor a RESET test of some sort would be interesting.

Say a 180deg shift in the line load ,
or a pull to breakout and then distance to resetting and holding a modest load.

Both would be interesting.
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:59 AM   #100
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There are some who have posted with very real and critical comment on what Fortress have planned and there is much passion and advice.

Anchor testing is fraught with problems and given that there is some passion here and I like to see problems being addressed positively then:

If you think there are better ways to to test anchors, that address the various issues that have been raised, then it would be invaluable for 'the industry' (however it is defined) to have the benefit of the passion and knowledge available.

Can I suggest:

If you think there is a better, more fair, more accurate - whatever way to test anchors then make a proposition, think positive.

Anchor makers, the media, the boating public want a fair and acceptable way to test anchors - if you know of a better way - come up with ideas. Not ideas on what answers are needed but how to get them.

Its easy to be critical - much less easy to satisfy the sceptics.

But secondly any ideas need to be based on some form of reality - so consider how the testing is to be funded. If you think funding 'too high' then maybe rethink the testing protocol to get closer to what is economically feasible.

Maybe this needs a new thread (if so can you send me a PM in case I miss it).


A second point - Fortress are to address anchor testing in soft mud. To me this is slightly refreshing. All, most of the anchor tests on the newer models appear to have had a slight focus toward hard seabeds and mud has been ignored - but maybe Chesapeake is an exception and soft mud only occurs there (and near where I live)

But I do wonder why soft mud has not merited attention of the anchor makers?

Finally - I confidentally expect Fortress to come out on top, but if its 10% or 20% it will be a bit of a non-event. If its greater than 30% then, to me, its real improvement (or positive). But ignoring the placing of Fortress - they have no axe to grind, other than to show Fortress is better - what will be interesting is how the other anchors - and there is a reasonable cross- section, are placed - as having no axe to grind (or furrow to plough) they, or their placings, ought to be considered fair.

And finally - Fortress have invited a cross section of the boating media, have Chuck on board and will need a decent crew to complete what is proposed. The media are not being paid (I know, I was invited and sorely tempted). People talk, there are too many to keep any shenanigans secret, there will be too many who know too much about anchor testing and Fortress know they would not survive anything but the highest integrity. To my mind the testing has merit - even if we know the answer.
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