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Old 11-07-2014, 03:32 PM   #801
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I think the edges are important for how they set...after that the forces of burying overwhelm whatever little tilting force they may exert.

Just because I hold a party sized helium balloon doesn't mean I will float away.

You really have to run some numbers of the forces involved...and I'll bet the manufacturers did....probably more accurately than some assumptions and eyeballing...and I'll bet the anchors continue to dig deeper just fine even with the winglets...just like the hoops that pictures clearly show don't tilt the rollbar anchors back upwards.

It's all about force...not guess.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:21 PM   #802
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Here is the Delta side by side with the Sarca EX-Cel. I need to copyright this picture as it is rare. The picture of the anchor shank is the Ex-Cel. The small shackle would work with the Delta. Of course, the Sarca is larger, but the shank is much larger. I had to add a larger shackle to work with it. The larger shackle would not work with my 5/16" G-4 chain, so had to use a smaller one there.

Before I get feed back about the lines being tied so crazy, we were finishing the teak toe rail. We had to make certain we were not chafing the soft finish. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Parks help me out here.

Notice the Sarca does not sit straight up, but lays slightly on its side causing the point to come into contact with the bottom. In fact the whole "attitude" of the Sarca is different from the Delta. I almost forgot, but the Sarca has a great deal of weight behind the tip area. This should really make the tip penetrate. Hoping next week to give it a good work out.

This should give Eric something to chew on.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:28 PM   #803
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I can testify that Don normally ties his boat to the dock in a safe and sane manner. I think the varnish fumes got to him this time.
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:37 PM   #804
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It's all about force...not guess.

Absolutely: empirical data almost always trumps speculation!

Especially when the speculator (like me) basically has very little clue about many of the anchors being discussed.

FWIW, in an earlier lifetime, I learned that reporting was quickly dismissed if it stated with something like "I guess..." whereas the same exact report was usually deemed quite credible if it started out with "My assessment is..."

Even better if it started "Our assessment is..." which apparently implied the incorporated weight of additional opinions... oops, I mean assessments... within the report.

But I digress...



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Old 11-07-2014, 04:49 PM   #805
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I got my Rocna anchor today. After all the speculation about the construction of these anchors I was a little worried. But after looking it over I think it will be do the job. My last and favorite anchor was a 1,000lb counterweight off a Caterpillar Frontend Loader. It never deformed or dragged, even in hurricane force winds. But it was a bitch to find a suitable bow roller for .........LMAO
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:55 PM   #806
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Here is the Delta side by side with the Sarca EX-Cel. I need to copyright this picture as it is rare. The picture of the anchor shank is the Ex-Cel. The small shackle would work with the Delta. Of course, the Sarca is larger, but the shank is much larger. I had to add a larger shackle to work with it. The larger shackle would not work with my 5/16" G-4 chain, so had to use a smaller one there.

Before I get feed back about the lines being tied so crazy, we were finishing the teak toe rail. We had to make certain we were not chafing the soft finish. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Parks help me out here.

Notice the Sarca does not sit straight up, but lays slightly on its side causing the point to come into contact with the bottom. In fact the whole "attitude" of the Sarca is different from the Delta. I almost forgot, but the Sarca has a great deal of weight behind the tip area. This should really make the tip penetrate. Hoping next week to give it a good work out.

This should give Eric something to chew on.
Just look at the mud up on that cute little ear of that Delta. Looks like the Sarca is a refinement of the Delta, including the weighted tip. I can dig it!
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:03 PM   #807
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Absolutely: empirical data almost always trumps speculation!

Especially when the speculator (like me) basically has very little clue about many of the anchors being discussed.

FWIW, in an earlier lifetime, I learned that reporting was quickly dismissed if it stated with something like "I guess..." whereas the same exact report was usually deemed quite credible if it started out with "My assessment is..."

Even better if it started "Our assessment is..." which apparently implied the incorporated weight of additional opinions... oops, I mean assessments... within the report.

But I digress...



-Chris
it was tough trying to not make it seem like I was singling you out....it was more to try to explain many of the forces on these anchors that some are wildly guessing. I believe they are truly wild guesses and it seems that enough others also accept some of the photos and reports that they too think these tilting and resistance issues are utter hogwash when it comes to the overall performance of the anchor.

plus you were not taking into account interning drag so I knew immediately you were out of your league and just out there enjoying real anchoring like the rest of us.
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:15 PM   #808
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Here is the Delta side by side with the Sarca EX-Cel. I need to copyright this picture as it is rare..
Don--- A still photo is always automatically copyrighted to the photographer unless he or she signs the rights over to another person or organization. This is not true of video, but it is of still photos.

For example, Boeing's still photographers sign upon joining the company a statement giving Boeing all rights to all photographs taken for the company. If they didn't do this, the rights to the photos they take in the course of their work at Boeing would belong to them, not Boeing. The rights to photos they take on their own time of subjects other than Boeing belong to the photographers themselves, some of whom do their own commercial projects like calendars, wedding photography, and so forth.

When a Seattle magazine used as a cover shot a photo I had taken of our Beaver taking off from a lake in SE Alaska, they did so without my persmission. They didn't do it on purpose--- they had been given a copy of the photo by another person who did not realize it had been shot by me.

When a co-worker saw the magazine in a store and brought it to my attention I immediately realized it was my photo. I contacted the magazine, told them it was my photo (and proved it), and said that they owned me a rights fee for using it. They apppologized for using the photo without my permission and agreed to pay a rights fee. I drew up a contract that gave the magazine the rights to use the photo one time on that particular issue of the magazine for a specific fee, which I recall was $3,000. They promptly paid me, and part of that fee bought our Rocna.

So you don't need to worry about copyrighting your photo. If you took it, you own it and all the rights to it. There is a time limit on a photo copyright but I don't remember what it is.

Again, this applies to still photos only. NOT video.
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:43 PM   #809
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plus you were not taking into account interning drag so I knew immediately you were out of your league and just out there enjoying real anchoring like the rest of us.

Heh... yep, that captures it.

I was mostly not even paying too much attention to posts in the thread that were about anchors I'm not familiar with... until that whole "Spade can be dismantled" thing came up. Hadn't really looked closely at most, so I didn't really appreciate convex vs. concave, "ears" that tilt up or down, etc.

Now that I've looked a bit at the various designs... it looks to me like most of 'em will work pretty well.

But I still remember reviews of our anchor where it was described as being fully submerged (the whole shank and all) in substrate -- gooey mud, that I was interested in at the time -- and so deeper still seems better to me.

From the Fortress results, I "assess" that most of the tested anchors don't keep digging; they seem to reach a certain depth and no more. And then sometimes they un-dig. At least in that kind of mud. At least in that round of tests.

We're probably anchoring out over this long weekend

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Old 11-07-2014, 09:39 PM   #810
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Chris,
Many anchors aren't designed to burry themselves but those that do reach a point where the forces to rise or dive are equal. The anchor then just "cruises" along at a constant depth. The bottom frequently is the determining factor .. think a foot of mud on top of hard sand. A small chain or cable will permit deeper penetration but anchor design is probably the most influential variable regarding penetration.

I don't know for sure but I think the Danforth types don't burry very far but have tremendous holding power. But one could say deeper is better just like bigger is better but there's enough variables so both are frequently not true. A smaller anchor out perforformed a larger anchor in this anchor test and I seem to recall penetration was involved.
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:53 PM   #811
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Is there something like an article, or a website, or a phone number I can call where I can find out what anchors are supposed to dig, dive, float, travel, cruise, etc....etc

I don't ever think I have ever heard that before and I sure need to brush up on that concept...

Heck,I always just thought that anchor was designed to pent rate as far as it could...only being stopped by a substrate to hard or not enough force.
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:05 PM   #812
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Is there something like an article, or a website, or a phone number I can call where I can find out what anchors are supposed to dig, dive, float, travel, cruise, etc....etc
Yes. Try http://www.anchors.performance_evalu...survey_lab.gov

This site graphs the performance of every known anchor from a rock to a Rocna in every known bottom condition. The information is from real-life, US government tests. No speculation, guesses, unproven theories or suppositions were used in the creation of the graphs. Only actual observation under all known bottom and weather conditions was used.

Every known type of vessel was used in the tests. So to use the graphs first find your specific vessel make and model, scroll down to the specific type and size/weight of anchor you are interested in, enter a scope ratio and then scroll to the right to see graphically how that anchor performs in every known type of bottom in every known type of weather and water conditions.

The latest upgrade to the graphing system allows you to enter your make and model of vessel, define a bottom type, define the weather and water conditions, and select a scope ratio. Then hit "Find" and the site will come up with the best anchor type and size/weight for your specific boat under those exact conditions.

it's a great tool. We used the Beta test version many years ago to select the best anchor to replace our unsatisfactory Bruce. I'm surprised Eric hasn't come across it yet as it would remove all speculation about any anchor in any bottom in any condtions with any vessel using any scope.

The current version uses CGI (Computer Generated Imagery) to show exactly how each anchor moves into and through every bottom type. So you can see exactly how the shape of an anchor affects how it sets, digs deeper, and moves under different pressures (you can select the load on the anchor to see exactly how it will behave under that load. Very cool.)

The site is constantly being upgraded as new boats and anchor combinations are tested. So don't be surprised if the site fails to open on your first try. Keep at it, though. Eventually it will open and you can take advantage of the incredible amount of testing that the government has done to date.
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:23 PM   #813
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Without speculation it would be rather boring. Wouldn't need anymore anchor threads .. for that matter wouldn't need any forum.
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:28 PM   #814
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Is there something like an article, or a website, or a phone number I can call where I can find out what anchors are supposed to dig, dive, float, travel, cruise, etc....etc

I don't ever think I have ever heard that before and I sure need to brush up on that concept...

Heck,I always just thought that anchor was designed to pent rate as far as it could...only being stopped by a substrate to hard or not enough force.
I don't think that the idea of an anchor designed to bury itself as you pull on it is that controversial or obscure a concept. A fisherman anchor is not designed to dive under the surface, nor I think is a Forfjord. A Danforth type, definitely. An Ultra/Excel/Spade, yes. A Rocna/Manson/Mantus, well maybe, but the vertical hoop will inhibit that so whatever the intent, they don't dive as deep as other designs.

This, I think, is what a diving anchor looks like:



And this is the very good non-diving Manson Supreme as an example of the hoop preventing it from diving any deeper that 8" or so:

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Old 11-07-2014, 10:53 PM   #815
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I think the edges are important for how they set...after that the forces of burying overwhelm whatever little tilting force they may exert.

Just because I hold a party sized helium balloon doesn't mean I will float away.

You really have to run some numbers of the forces involved...and I'll bet the manufacturers did....probably more accurately than some assumptions and eyeballing...and I'll bet the anchors continue to dig deeper just fine even with the winglets...just like the hoops that pictures clearly show don't tilt the rollbar anchors back upwards.

It's all about force...not guess.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:30 AM   #816
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Having a problem with the link.....tried to cut it up even and search but nothing that sounds right is coming up....

Whose website? US Geosurvey???

I'm still looking for something that says when an anchor is designed to stop burying itself...I didn't see anything on the Manson or Rocna sites...you know a statement like..."designed to reach max holding at XXX depth buried...indcrease holding power can be achieved by XXX (something like using cable versus chain or something)"....

But I haven't yet...still looking.
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:45 AM   #817
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I like my how-far-up-the-shank test. Had many occasions when mud was half way or more up the shank of my Delta. I recall it happening to a lesser extent way back in the day on the CA Delta with an old Danforth type. Let it "soak" for awhile, that's the ticket, do the initial set, pour yourself a drink, relax. Then come back and power down on it. Then stay a day or two.
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:17 AM   #818
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Is there something like an article, or a website, or a phone number I can call where I can find out what anchors are supposed to dig, dive, float, travel, cruise, etc....etc

I don't ever think I have ever heard that before and I sure need to brush up on that concept...

Heck,I always just thought that anchor was designed to pent rate as far as it could...only being stopped by a substrate to hard or not enough force.

Try 1-800-ONA-HOOK



But yes, ref what I'd think is a good goal: penetrate as far as it can... only being stopped by too hard a substrate or not enough force. Exactly.

Around here that'd have the whole shank and maybe 3-4' of chain buried, too.


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I like my how-far-up-the-shank test. Had many occasions when mud was half way or more up the shank of my Delta.

That's the test we routinely use, too. And our shank routinely brings mud up, sometimes almost all the way up to the swivel. I can't always prove the shank was actually buried that far, though...

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Old 11-08-2014, 10:37 AM   #819
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Is there something like an article, or a website, or a phone number I can call where I can find out what anchors are supposed to dig, dive, float, travel, cruise, etc....etc

I don't ever think I have ever heard that before and I sure need to brush up on that concept...

Heck,I always just thought that anchor was designed to pent rate as far as it could...only being stopped by a substrate to hard or not enough force.
Yes, that is what an anchor is supposed to do. The design of the anchor may help initial penetration. However the same design features that help to quickly set an anchor with little tip weight can become an impediment to that same design penetrating as deeply as a differently designed anchor.

The function of the hoop in the Manson video above is obvious. It puts the anchor in a position where the tip can dig in. Then, as it is pulled, the anchor starts diving, and as it does the soil begins to compress as it passes through the hoop because the concave fluke is directing the soil in that direction (compare to a Super Sarca where the soil is directed away from the hoop). This is frequently a virtue, except in those cases where the soil doesn't compact, in the which case the hoop becomes a backboard tipping the anchor out of the soil. Otherwise, it merely becomes a surface horizontal to the direction of pull adding something to drag, but also generally preventing deep burying when compared to an anchor without a hoop. The hoop, like virtually all design features has advantages and disadvantages, which doesn't seem like a concept that needs much brushing up on.

The advantages of a burying anchor can be seen from the Fortress tests. Once configured correctly, the Fortress buried deeply, generated the highest resistance and brought up material from well under the sea bed surface. The next best seems to be the Mantus, whose thinner hoop wasn't much of an impediment to diving in the soupy mud, followed by the Ultra which has most of its weight in the tip. All kinds of trade offs involved, which come into play differently depending on the type of sea bed you're dealing with.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:09 AM   #820
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Ya know...

I've watched lots of anchor setting vids, including the two on Delfin's post # 814 of this thread. One extremely meaningful item I consistently notice is that the manufacturers' setting tests mostly utilize a nearly parallel with ground-surface rode angle while pulling to display setting capability of their anchor. In my estimation that skews things out of sync with reality of 5 to 1 or even 7 to 1 scope/angle that anchors need to set with during real-time anchoring procedures. Of course, if rode is fully heavy chain with oodles of scope, and anchor is not pulled back-down upon to aggressively (at least at first during setting sequence), then the shank of anchor would stay more parallel to bottom surface which would more closely resemble the test video occurrences. However, many boats do not have full-on chain from boat to anchor. Instead they have 10’ +/- chain with the rest being line; also, many do not provide ample scope. And, many boaters do not know very well how to “whisper” to an anchor while setting it. Therefore… I do not put full stock into results seen regarding on-screen-close-up pictured results of most anchor setting videos.

In comparison to the plethora of what I feel are skewed anchor setting close-up videos:

It is my feeling that the “test(s)” having results to be most relied upon were and are performed by Brian of Fortress Anchor. His tests were performed under very close to real life anchoring conditions and in comparison to many anchor types in same conditions under strict anchor setting guidelines.

In too many videos: Pickup trucks pulling anchors along surface with rode parallel to ground does not a realistic-boating anchor set condition make.

Just sayen!!
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