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Old 10-03-2014, 01:14 PM   #661
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Even the less discussed roll bars seem to do OK.....

Uploaded on Mar 5, 2008
80 Knots at Punta Delgardo in the Magellan Straights. Basically an open roadstead. Thanks to the Manson Supreme, I did not budge an inch!

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Old 10-03-2014, 02:49 PM   #662
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Marin wrote;
"I think your strong bias against Rocna and rollbar anchors in general is coloring your view of things a bit"

That resembles me a lot too and in reverse it resembles you equally. You frequently defend these RB anchors and specifically the Rocna as it they were an 11 year old daughter. I like them too Marin and if the new Spade (Sea Blade) lives up to it's good looks I may even have another RB anchor. But I suspect the RB will be surpassed and outdated soon .. relatively soon.

Actually Marin RB anchors could be in their model T phase. Breakthroughs in technology could catapult the RB anchors to stardom and cause the cessation of the manufacture of anything else. I wouldn't buy a Rocna because P Smith is connected to the brand but I'm almost fully open to all the rest.

Design wise I think the Bugel had a lot going for it and the new Spade "Spoon" could have found a defect and it's performance could be a lot better. Don't know but it's bound to come out in future tests. At least some indication.

Scott it looks like the rode could be as important as the anchor in your "anchorage". A 500' bunji as in a nylon line seems appropriate to me.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #663
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[RIGH[/RIGHT] But I suspect the RB will be surpassed and outdated soon ..
Just like those old, outdated relics like the Bruce/Claw, Danforth, CQR, Spade, Navy, Forfjord etc have been proven to have "problems" and so no boater in his right mind would continue to use one, right?

Yeah, I can get behind that notion. Seems like you've been advocating using Model T anchors all along here, Eric. Time to throw out all that junk you've been toting around and get in line be for that high-tech, digital anchor that's just around the corner.

But I am glad to see you feel the same about old, outdad anchor designs as I do.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:19 PM   #664
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Below are images of the All at Sea magazine report about the test.

You will note on page 3 the writer's comments concerning the Rocna. As previously mentioned, there was surprise aboard that this anchor had setting issues, which were attributed to it landing upside down or on its side, and then the anchor just dragged along the soft mud in that position and the fluke never positioned into the bottom.

We noticed this tendency with the Rocna during preliminary testing, and we decided to experiment and help it orient by tying a small buoy (remember the Hydrobubble?) to the roll bar, thinking that might assist the anchor to land in the fluke down position....and it did.

For whatever reason, this setting issue was not as common with the other roll bar anchors (Manson Supreme & Mantus).
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:13 PM   #665
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Just perfect!

Hey, mods. What about changing "Anchors and Anchoring" to "Anchor Sluts"? A great way to increase viewership with all the mis-directed Google hits you'll get.
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Aaah…no…I think we'll pass on that Angus. Thanks for the thought though...
OK, so "Anchor Sluts" is out. Probably insensitive anyway since I believe we're dealing with something beyond the victims' control. What about a forum that offers shelter and support to those exhibiting the disorder we see at work here . . . although I haven't quite worked out what to call it:

Anchorholism?
Fluke Fetish?
Roll Bar Envy?
Ground Tackle Compulsive Disorder?

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Old 10-03-2014, 05:18 PM   #666
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"Ground Tackle Compulsive Disorder"
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:27 PM   #667
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Nevertheless, every time I've dropped my Bruce knockoff, it grabs the sticky SF estuary mud readily in the 1-to-2.5-knot current; lay out some more scope, and I'm good to stay despite frequent 180-degree tidal changes.
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:38 PM   #668
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OK, so "Anchor Sluts" is out. Probably insensitive anyway since I believe we're dealing with something beyond the victims' control. What about a forum that offers shelter and support to those exhibiting the disorder we see at work here . . . although I haven't quite worked out what to call it:

Anchorholism?
Fluke Fetish?
Roll Bar Envy?
Ground Tackle Compulsive Disorder?

"Anchor-Type" Usefulness Denial

or

"Anchor-Type" Uselessness Denial

Depending on bottom composition... and... user's correct setting capability.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:07 PM   #669
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I think your strong bias against Rocna and rollbar anchors in general is coloring your view of things a bit. The only "problem" with a rollbar anchor is that it doesn't fit on a large number of pulpits.

Given the very large and growing number of boaters using rollbar anchors all over the world with outstanding results, it would appear that the so-called "problems" with rollbar anchors are only in the minds of those who don't have them. And apparently, nobody has thought to tell the anchors themselves that they have "problems" because they continue to rack up an enviable record of performance in recreational and commercial service all over the planet.
I don't have any bias against rollbar anchors other than what physics teaches me about the effect of trying to pull a solid bar perpendicular to the sea bed. It will initially increasing holding power, but will prevent the anchor from burying itself so will yield less ultimate holding than an anchor without a roll bar. Further, if the rollbar ends up piling up debris in front of it, holding is further reduced. That is, I suppose, why Starzinger's test in Patagonia of a Manson, Rocna and Bruce type Ray had the Ray come out on top.

Regarding Rocna, I have no special animus towards that product, but do find the tendency of some to tout it as the best anchor in the world pretty tedious, because it clearly is not. At least based on a wide range of objective tests. If I wanted a hoop style, I would probably choose the Manson simply because although they have strengthened the shank it is still weaker than the Supreme's and both test about the same in holding capacity.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:25 PM   #670
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If I wanted a hoop style, I would probably choose the Manson simply because although they have strengthened the shank it is still weaker than the Supreme's and both test about the same in holding capacity.
I agree with you there. Our Rocna is an original, made long before Holdfast showed up and moved the production to China. Canadian Metals moved the production from whatever fabrication plant Holdfast had been using to their own, wholly-owned fabrication plant in China, and they say the problems with the early Chinese shanks--- assuming there were any--- have been resolved.

But were we in the market for a new anchor today, while we would still choose a rollbar anchor because, as I've stated before, we think it is the best all-around, multi-bottom design going, we would probably order a Sarca from Australia because we are pretty sure it's made correctly and its performance is right up there with the Rocna's.

We don't like the Manson, partly because of its stupid slotted shank which in addition to the sliding shackle problem makes the shank too tall for a lot of pulpit anchor keepers (bails) including ours. We also believe that the Manson's overall design, while pretty good, is not quite up to par with Rocna's and Anchor Right's.

But we would be somewhat leery of buying a new Rocna today just because the alleged Chinese manufacturing problems in the Holdfast days makes us a bit unsure of the quality today. With the Sarca on the market, it enables a buyer to avoid the "Rocna uncertainty" altogether.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:45 PM   #671
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I agree with you there. Our Rocna is an original, made long before Holdfast showed up and moved the production to China. Canadian Metals moved the production from whatever fabrication plant Holdfast had been using to their own, wholly-owned fabrication plant in China, and they say the problems with the early Chinese shanks--- assuming there were any--- have been resolved.

But were we in the market for a new anchor today, while we would still choose a rollbar anchor because, as I've stated before, we think it is the best all-around, multi-bottom design going, we would probably order a Sarca from Australia because we are pretty sure it's made correctly and its performance is right up there with the Rocna's.

We don't like the Manson, partly because of its stupid slotted shank which in addition to the sliding shackle problem makes the shank too tall for a lot of pulpit anchor keepers (bails) including ours. We also believe that the Manson's overall design, while pretty good, is not quite up to par with Rocna's and Anchor Right's.

But we would be somewhat leery of buying a new Rocna today just because the alleged Chinese manufacturing problems in the Holdfast days makes us a bit unsure of the quality today. With the Sarca on the market, it enables a buyer to avoid the "Rocna uncertainty" altogether.
The Super Sarca would be a good choice, and I didn't mention it because of the lack of distribution. However, IMO, the SS overcomes or minimizes two of the problems I see in hoop style anchors. First, it has convex flukes, so debris is moved away from the hoop, avoiding piling up in front of the hoop. Second, the hoop is quite thin, so reduces the burying impediment the hoop imposes. True, the shank is mild steel, but Rex has compensated for that with thicker sections, so net net, the material choice is probably fine. Having said that, if you were to order from Oz, the Sarca Excel is, IMHO, the best design out there and is quite nice looking to boot.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:56 PM   #672
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But were we in the market for a new anchor today, while we would still choose a rollbar anchor because, as I've stated before, we think it is the best all-around, multi-bottom design going, we would probably order a Sarca from Australia because we are pretty sure it's made correctly and its performance is right up there with the Rocna's.

I am in the market for a new generation anchor right now(actually windlass, roller and rode too) and the above statement of Marin's is honestly where the rubber meets the road for me. Prior to shelling out a boat buck on a chunk of steel to drop overboard and hold my boat in place I want to know that I know the dang thing is made out of what the manufacturer claims it is. A credibility issue exists with some brands of high dollar anchors that has not manifest itself with other brands. Rather than assurances some offer now, I prefer one that hasn't dropped the ball at all.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:07 PM   #673
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Having said that, if you were to order from Oz, the Sarca Excel is, IMHO, the best design out there and is quite nice looking to boot.
We don't like the Excel for the same reason we don't like the CQR. We won't put our faith in anchors with flukes streamlined in the direction of pull. We want the broadest, most resistant piece of metal opposing the pull of the boat as practical, not something that by design will slide through the bottom when you pull on it.

Yes, I know the theory--- as it moves forward it's also supposed to dig in deeper and so hold harder. But I've driven a tractor pulling a plow, and so far as I'm concerned, that's the wrong approach to take with an anchor design no matter how you fiddle the bends in the metal. There are already enough variables in anchoring. Using an anchor that "wants" to move forward is not something I want to add to the mix.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:31 PM   #674
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I am in the market for a new generation anchor right now(actually windlass, roller and rode too) and the above statement of Marin's is honestly where the rubber meets the road for me. Prior to shelling out a boat buck on a chunk of steel to drop overboard and hold my boat in place I want to know that I know the dang thing is made out of what the manufacturer claims it is. A credibility issue exists with some brands of high dollar anchors that has not manifest itself with other brands. Rather than assurances some offer now, I prefer one that hasn't dropped the ball at all.
I think the Rocna debacle was unusual in that the manufacturer lied about what they were doing and I don't think there are many more completely unethical manufacturers lurking out there. The Sarca Excel is made of the best material available, as is the Manson if a hoop style is desired. I'm nuts about my Ultra, but they are pretty pricey. If I were advising a friend on the best possible choice at a not unreasonable price I think I would go for the Manson Supreme in weights less than 100#. A 45# is $454 through Fisheries, and while I would prefer the Excel the shipping would add quite a bit. The Fortress is also an option and would be the best holding, but sometimes they just don't fit on the boat.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:43 PM   #675
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I purchased a Fortress last year and love it. The problem is I wish to automate my anchoring due to health reasons and with our small classic boat it's not easy to do without changing the look of the boat. The new generation anchors geometry gives options traditional anchors do not.

I've been making cardboard templates of different anchors and trying to refine for the most aesthetically pleasing look. Trying to fit ten pounds of crap inside a five pound bucket will not be without compromise. Small foredeck and no pulpit(nor desire for one) is proving to be a fun little jigsaw puzzle to solve. Thank goodness it's part of the way I relax on the boat.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:49 PM   #676
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Quote from Marin:

Yes, I know the theory--- as it moves forward it's also supposed to dig in deeper and so hold harder. But I've driven a tractor pulling a plow, and so far as I'm concerned, that's the wrong approach to take with an anchor design no matter how you fiddle the bends in the metal. There are already enough variables in anchoring. Using an anchor that "wants" to move forward is not something I want to add to the mix.

Rex Wrote:
Marin if you are going to lump in the Excel as a Plough then I don’t see why you would prefer the Super Sarca?
Truth is neither plough, no I am not going through it all again, I would post but I think I would be doing the wrong thing, if you go to our videos and upload the environmental video, then if you still think the Excel is a plough then don’t try selling it to l the farmers, the trench fills in rather than plough out, this is very well demonstrated by the delta example. I cant but you could upload it for all to see and mke up own minds, just adds more FUEL to your ongoing discussions.
The below report is in the TF archives, Dinghydog may have an update, Mike replaced his Rocna with a Excel.

05-30-2013, 08:30 AM

#107

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Initial field report on the galvanized Sarca Excel No. 6 (66lb).

Location: Chesapeake Bay
Dates: 5/25 & 5/26
Bottom: Typically mud with varying top layers depending on location
Boat: PH Trawler - 40' overall length and 24,000 lb displacement
Rode: 5/16" G4 with dual snubbers

Day 1: Anchor boat for three sailboats - 1x42' & 2x34' (our old sailing friends did not disown us after all). Location (Rhode River High Island, MD) is known to have good holding. Winds were variable from 8-18 kts with minimal directional change. Anchor bit immediately and held a 1K RPM back down set (single 340 HP). No issues overnight. Weighing the anchor required patience, persistence and came up with mud mainly around the “de-liquification” cut-outs. A drop back into the water cleaned off the majority.

Day 2: Anchor boat for five sailboats - 1x42',1x39', 3x34'. Location (Mill Creek, MD) is known to have poor holding because of heavy leaf cover; had previous difficulties getting anchors to set in this anchorage. Anchor bit immediately and held a 1.1K RPM back down set. Winds variable from 5-12 kts. No issues overnight. Raft had swung 180 degrees on the morning tide, but the winds were calm.

Observations: Based on the difficulty weighing anchor, I can only suspect that it dove deeply into the mud. It also easily penetrated the leafy bottom of Mill Creek. By the end of the Holiday weekend, we were christened “anchor boat for life”. Not sure if this is necessarily a good thing…

While the above cannot be considered a definitive test for any anchor, I have growing confidence it will hold our single boat in most straight-line to moderate veering wind conditions and in substrates found on the Bay. I’m still looking for a substaintal 180 degree wind shift that typically comes during our summer squalls. I’ll continue to update notable experiences with this anchor. End Quote:

Any way I think they are all good anchors, the ones that survive have to be.

Regards Rex.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:30 PM   #677
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Rex Wrote:
Marin if you are going to lump in the Excel as a Plough then I don’t see why you would prefer the Super Sarca?.
Because the Super Sarca is a rollbar anchor, and I think the rollbar anchor is the cleverest idea since sliced bread.

The Excel is a new twist on an old idea, the CQR. The plow design, be it a CQR, Delta, Excel, etc. is streamlined in the direction of pull, and I simply believe that's a fundamentally bad idea. Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

I can certainly understand why a rollbar anchor manufacturer would want to come out with something like this, because the rollbar anchor presents some real stowage problems with a lot of pulpit designs. So the moment you stick a rollbar on an anchor you elminate a good chunk of your potential market. Apparently, Peter Smith over at Rocna has finally figured out what you guys realized awhile back.

The most experienced, most knowledgable boater I've ever met, a long-time sailboater in our boating club, has a CQR on his 40' sloop. He's had pretty good luck with it, he told me, in the decades he's been sailing the Pacific Northwest and up the BC coast.

When we started looking for a better anchor to replace the anchor we were not happy with, I asked him what it was that he liked about the CQR, and why it is one of the most popular anchors in this area, particularly on sailboats.

He thought about it for a moment, and then said the main reason he liked and bought it was that it was the first anchor to come along that fit really well on the bow of a modern (meaning no bowsprit) sailboat. He said he wasn't particularly impressed with its holding power and sometimes it was a bit stubborn to set, but in all the years he's been boating he's rarely run into conditions that really taxed the anchor. He's had it drag a few times, but in his view, that's the nature of boating. It fits well on his boat, it works well almost all the time, so he's a happy man, he said.

Sensible answer from a very sensible boater. But since we CAN carry a rollbar anchor with no problems on our boat, that's what we decided was the thing to get.

Now I will say I much prefer the angle of the Rocna's fluke to its shank to the angle (or lack thereof) between the Sarca's fluke and its shank. And as I've stated before, I don't like slotted shanks. But take the Rocna design out of the picture, and I think you guys have the best anchor going in the Super Sarca.

At least based on my own visual evaluation of the design and the testimonials I've read including those from this forum's Peter B. Obviously we've never actually used a Super Sarca, so I can't make any judgement about its performance based on personal use.

BTW, don't feel that you need to explain how your anchors work again. You've done that in the past and I paid attention to what you wrote, so I'm not trying to provoke you into doing it all again. I'm just answering the question you posed above.

Cheers,
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:58 PM   #678
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Regarding Rocna, I have no special animus towards that product, but do find the tendency of some to tout it as the best anchor in the world pretty tedious, because it clearly is not.
I have no idea what would make an anchor "the best anchor in the world" any more than there would be a best hose clamp in the world or a best fuel additive. What it all comes down to is what's good enough for a reasonable price based on the experiences of people you know and trust.

Given my full-time liveaboard status where we anchor between 30-50% of the time (4 nights this week in St Michaels), I think that a trawler owner who wants to anchor between Maine and the Keys including the Great Lakes and great rivers down to the Gulf of Mexico, is out-of-their-mind-crazy to purchase anything other than a Rocna for their primary anchor. There, I said it.

It doesn't matter to me whether there is a theoretically better anchor out there somewhere. My Rocna has never failed once where previous anchors on the same boat in the same anchorages wouldn't set well.

By this winter, I hope to add the Bahamas to my list of experienced Rocna dropping grounds (I haven't been back in the 5 years we've had the Rocna). I'd gladly take bets on what my experience will be there too.

I also think the Fortress is a killer backup anchor. I have one and I've used it when a previous large Bruce wouldn't set. The Fortress has never given me a moment of problem either although I'm not as sure about its reset capability as I am the Rocna.

And if I were in some position where I needed to purchase new anchors, I'd get a Rocna and a Fortress. I honestly couldn't care less whether they were rated best by any "authority". I know they're the best for me.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:07 PM   #679
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Quote by Marin.
BTW, don't feel that you need to explain how your anchors work again. You've done that in the past and I paid attention to what you wrote, so I'm not trying to provoke you into doing it all again. I'm just answering the question you posed above.
End Quote:

And I really appreciate your answers and compliments; but I am over it, if it works for you then that is all it has to please, there are many good anchors out there now to choose from to satisfy all opinons, none are perfect but some are better.
Regards Rex.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:17 PM   #680
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... I don't like slotted shanks. But take the Rocna design out of the picture, and I think you guys have the best anchor going in the Super Sarca...
The SS shank slot can be blocked at any point on its length, with a bolt, to limit or totally prevent attachment shackle slide. Mine came with the bolt which I removed to allow shackle slide towards the spade on retrieve. I appreciate some would retain it, concerned about unintended dislodging.
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