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Old 10-01-2014, 08:43 PM   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
No one wants a bent shaft.
If an anchor shaft bends, is it ok to straighten it and continue use, OR once bent, even straightened, it is then more prone to bend and time to get a new one, and send the old one to Eric for the collection.
And of course, if it needs replacing, with what?
In the job I just left working for a salvage business that retrieves and uses hundreds of anchors a year...especially during major oil spills...

I would have to say that an anchor properly bent back into shape has a good chance of being completely serviceable. But in many cases...the anchor is not bent back exactly and does not seem to be "as good as new"...the geometry is bad and the worst seem to be the danforths and similar designs. Any narrowing of space on those designs tends to fiddle with the ability for the flukes to rotate properly and set...even the smallest clamshells or grass wads seem to keep them from setting...or one fluke bent down seems to make them flip or pivot before setting.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:56 PM   #622
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psneeld posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK
No one wants a bent shaft.
If an anchor shaft bends, is it ok to straighten it and continue use, OR once bent, even straightened, it is then more prone to bend and time to get a new one, and send the old one to Eric for the collection.
And of course, if it needs replacing, with what?


In the job I just left working for a salvage business that retrieves and uses hundreds of anchors a year...especially during major oil spills...

I would have to say that an anchor properly bent back into shape has a good chance of being completely serviceable. But in many cases...the anchor is not bent back exactly and does not seem to be "as good as new"...the geometry is bad and the worst seem to be the danforths and similar designs. Any narrowing of space on those designs tends to fiddle with the ability for the flukes to rotate properly and set...even the smallest clamshells or grass wads seem to keep them from setting...or one fluke bent down seems to make them flip or pivot before setting.

Rex Wrote:

Scott thats interesting, maybe our Super Sarca solves some of those problems as we are packing a good order for Canada as we speak for the oil spill containment booms.

Why I dont know as they would we be quite expensive as we send them air mail, every year a couple of times they order these so keep your eyes open and let me know if you see any.

Regards Rex.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:31 PM   #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
No one wants a bent shaft.
If an anchor shaft bends, is it ok to straighten it and continue use, OR once bent, even straightened, it is then more prone to bend and time to get a new one, and send the old one to Eric for the collection.
And of course, if it needs replacing, with what?
Shanks can certainly be bent back, but they will be even weaker after than they were to begin with. You can't restore the crystalline structure of the steel once deformed unless heated to plasticity, even if you can restore the original gross shape of the bent piece. Mantus has an advantage of being able to replace the shank, and perhaps that was their original intent - manufacture a weaker product that is cheaper, then replace the bent shanks after people complain. I would speculate that is the case, although I remember on Cruisers Forum when a number of posters thought the shank was substandard, the engineer for Mantus posted a chart with his calculations that their shank was as strong as anyone else's, so maybe they thought that really was the case. I believe my calling the calcs "bogus" earned me my first official reprimand from that site. I only wish I had received a plaque or something because I was kind of proud of that, but no. These calcs were subsequently disappeared from the thread by agreeable Mantus promoting moderators and shortly thereafter Mantus announced they would be replacing the mild steel shanks with ones made of stronger stuff. My guess is that it is still weaker than competitors simply because its cross section has less steel than the competitors, but maybe that doesn't matter to most people under most anchoring conditions.

The basic design certainly looks like an improvement to me over the Rocna or Manson, and the Fortress tests bear that out (at least in that seabed) but perhaps at the cost of a huge hoop that is also apparently weak enough to bent. What I would like to see is a version made up with a shank of the same 900 MPa Knox uses in his hooks. Personally, I wouldn't want one even then because I don't think hoop anchors are the optimal design. Something Peter Smith and I now agree on.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:43 PM   #624
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Sometimes you have to invent your own problems to solve...
In all the posts on this thread, this is the smartest, most intelligent, most meaningful, most insightful, and most accurate one of the bunch.

I've got a meeting coming up with some of the communicators and brand managers I work with, and I'm going to use this thread as an example of how speculation by people with little more than armchair theory to work with can spin what in actuality is total guesswork and bias into something that can come across as having a fair degree of credibility.

It's a great example of how the perception of a product can be affected by made-up problems stemming from made-up situations.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:45 PM   #625
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Incidences of ASTM 514 A (or HT) shanks bending are notable by their absence - but I'd like to see someone bend one straight in the absence of a workshop.

If you bend a mild steel shank you can bend it straightish sufficient to allow you go and find a new anchor (or new) shank. My thought of bending a HT shank would be you would be on a hiding to nothing and either you need an alternative anchor (which would need to be rated as the same size as the one you bent) or you can no longer anchor.

If you are a 'one anchor' man - I'm not quite sure what you do with your vessel when you are on the beach bending the shank straight?

Seems a good case for reliable anchors (in the first place) and for carrying at least one spare, correctly sized.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:57 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
In all the posts on this thread, this is the smartest, most intelligent, most meaningful, most insightful, and most accurate one of the bunch.

I've got a meeting coming up with some of the communicators and brand managers I work with, and I'm going to use this thread as an example of how speculation by people with little more than armchair theory to work with can spin what in actuality is total guesswork and bias into something that can come across as having a fair degree of credibility.

It's a great example of how the perception of a product can be affected by made-up problems stemming from made-up situations.
Uhhh, I think you might have missed Spy's point.....
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:03 PM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex View Post
psneeld posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK
No one wants a bent shaft.
If an anchor shaft bends, is it ok to straighten it and continue use, OR once bent, even straightened, it is then more prone to bend and time to get a new one, and send the old one to Eric for the collection.
And of course, if it needs replacing, with what?


In the job I just left working for a salvage business that retrieves and uses hundreds of anchors a year...especially during major oil spills...

I would have to say that an anchor properly bent back into shape has a good chance of being completely serviceable. But in many cases...the anchor is not bent back exactly and does not seem to be "as good as new"...the geometry is bad and the worst seem to be the danforths and similar designs. Any narrowing of space on those designs tends to fiddle with the ability for the flukes to rotate properly and set...even the smallest clamshells or grass wads seem to keep them from setting...or one fluke bent down seems to make them flip or pivot before setting.

Rex Wrote:

Scott thats interesting, maybe our Super Sarca solves some of those problems as we are packing a good order for Canada as we speak for the oil spill containment booms.

Why I dont know as they would we be quite expensive as we send them air mail, every year a couple of times they order these so keep your eyes open and let me know if you see any.

Regards Rex.
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:18 PM   #628
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Uhhh, I think you might have missed Spy's point.....

I think his point is exactly what he said. In my opinion, this thread is the best example of people basing their opinon of a product (in this case, anchors) on total guesswork, made-up theories, and baseless speculation that I think I've ever seen.

What makes it even more.... unique.... is that the whole thing is about a bent piece of metal that's supposed to dig into the bottom and keep a boat floating in the same place. So when I start reading about how the principles of aerodynamics help keep this bent piece of metal stuck in the bottom, that's when it really becomes worthy of including in a communications/branding meeting.
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Old 10-02-2014, 12:20 AM   #629
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Marin posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
Uhhh, I think you might have missed Spy's point.....


I think his point is exactly what he said. In my opinion, this thread is the best example of people basing their opinon of a product (in this case, anchors) on total guesswork, made-up theories, and baseless speculation that I think I've ever seen.

What makes it even more.... unique.... is that the whole thing is about a bent piece of metal that's supposed to dig into the bottom and keep a boat floating in the same place. So when I start reading about how the principles of aerodynamics help keep this bent piece of metal stuck in the bottom, that's when it really becomes worthy of including in a communications/branding meeting.



Rex Wrote:

Best way to settle all of the tooing and throwing on the Mantus is for Greg to have his anchors proof tested and type approved, whether it be for S/H/H/Power or lesser, “High Holding power” at least you then know what you’re buying.

You know it would be a couple of years back now, I think on SAIL Net, Greg said he could understand peoples concern re bolted shank, and shank strength, Greg said he was going to have Lloyds test and certify his anchors to put these concern’s to bed, (or words to that effect) , Still hasn’t happened or we would not be having these discussions, once certified if someone bends a shank then the anchor is not at fault as it has been built to a standard, shanks still bend but less.

To be certified with the above by either approval type tells the customer you have a well made tested anchor, it is to a standard, this is way better than nothing, it means most of the arguments can be resolved Re shank strength, I say this because proof testing will sought out anchor design and steel quality, proof testing is an absolute killer in deforming a shank, IT NOT ONLY TESTS THE STEEL BUT THE PROFILE AND SHANK DESIGN, if anyone thinks they will easily pass this proof testing then I suggest they do the Exercise, remember this has to be carried out by a licensed or NATA approved company.

If you think a company could buy this piece of paper I would be happy to say dream on, buying the piece of paper in this day and age you would have to be not only brave but silly, everything you do these days there is more accountability.

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Old 10-02-2014, 03:49 AM   #630
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Some issues have been raised and I am happy to address them.
The different questions will need a few posts to answer, but bear with me and I will try to cover all the areas.

Firstly I do object to any suggestion that I downplayed the situation or provided no explanation.

Mantus sent me the anchor at no charge, but I have promised everyone a complete warts and all report. I have included photos of every single set of the anchor and rather extensively documented the bent shaft explaining exactly how it occurred (and I will repeat those details here).

I just counted the photos and I have posted 21 photos of the Mantus with the bent shank. These photos will show up in google searches often without people realising that this was the old mild steel not the current high tensile ATSM 514 shank.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:01 AM   #631
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The bent shank was definitely the old mild steel version.

All current Mantus anchors sold have the high tensile ATSM 514 shank.

Mantus have offered to upgrade at no charge any of the old shanks for the new version to any customers who purchased the anchor before the high tensile shank was produced.

The Mantus anchor is covered by a lifetime warranty and any bent part will be replaced.

The anchor was originally sent in November, but the roll bar was held up by Greek customs. This arrived while we were on the hard, so the first time I had a chance to use the anchor was when we launched again late April.


I feel a little guilty about this situation as Greg offered to send me a new high tensile shank before any problem occurred. I am cruising full time on the boat moving between little islands and arranging to be in one spot (with a local who is reliable enough to agree to receive a package) is not easy. I suggested to Greg to save sending the new shank untill winter when, although still at anchor I move around less.

I have an obligation to forum readers to report accurately any problems that have occurred, which I have done, but I also have some some obligation to the manufacturer to test the current (not obsolete) product and with more effort on my part these problems could have been avoided.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:19 AM   #632
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The circumstances around the bent shaft occurred after the Mantus became very deeply buried in hard sand after some strong wind. My wind instruments are broken at the moment but I estimate we had 45-50 knots, which continued for two days. The highest wind was at night, as it always seems to be, but this was a photo taken at dawn of a 62 foot cat anchor next to me. You can see the large "clouds" of airborne spray as the tops of waves are blown off.

The wind reduced considerably, but swung to an on-shore breeze so we had to leave the anchorage. The wave action from the on-shore wind and left over swell caused the biggest problem during retrieval of the buried anchor. There was a lot of shock loading when the chain was at 1:1 and the bow rose in response to the waves.

The shank should not have bent, but it was very brutal treatment that few owners would ever subject their anchor too.



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Old 10-02-2014, 04:33 AM   #633
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Peter asked about how the Mantus was performing. I did not want to sidetrack the thread, but that seems to have happened anyway .

I have not tested the anchor in as many substrates as I would like yet, but the Mantus is proving to be a fantastic anchor. Judge for yourself. This photo was taken at my current anchorage and is just one example of how well the anchor has been setting.





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Old 10-02-2014, 04:51 AM   #634
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Noelex,

I am puzzled as to why the detail of the shank bending took so long to emerge. You are testing an anchor for the common good - why the reticence until you are pushed.

You were queried on this some time ago, you have been able to post on other topics in the interim, but have taken your time to answer a very simple question. The answers look highly credible - why the delay.

Again you omit to mention that the only time you tried the anchor in weed/mud it took 2 tries to set it.


Your underwater images are superb, but good images need accurate and timely annotation.

I wonder how long it will be before you post the response, you outline above, on the forum where it was originally raised. I wonder why the detail you now provide was not offered when you originally described the bending of the anchor, one month ago?

You description is credible - but lacks totally credibility given the delay.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:10 AM   #635
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Noelex,

This was your description of the shank bending:

quote:

Re: Photos of Anchors Setting.
Well, I promised to give the Mantus a good test.

After the very strong wind a few days ago, the Mantus was buried deeply. This was the result on retrieval .

You can see the shank has bent about 15 degrees.

The anchor had dived a long way down in moderately hard sand and took a lot of breaking out. More than I have experienced with any other normally set anchor, even in similar conditions. This is a great indication of the holding power and short scope performance.

There was quite a bit of wave action in the anchorage so it was difficult to break the anchor out with a nice steady force. Combined with the deep burial, the shock loading from the waves undoubtedly contributed to the bend.

As most people are aware, Mantus have upgraded the strength of the shank to 690 MPa steel (almost 2.5x as strong) and offered a free replacement. Mine is the older mild steel shank. I will fit one of the new HT shanks and give that the torture test.

end quote


You have supplemented this saying (in early September) you have had the anchor for 5 months. The website declares that all the anchors have the new shank from December. 2013

You are very fond of posting images, why now (and as far as I know only here), not then? Why omit all the detail, why are you upset when you are questioned about downplaying the situation - its not that you downplayed it - you gave it cursory coverage - yet it appears, now, the coverage gives graphic detail. You mention short scope, 2:1, 3:1, 5:1 - do we need to guess.

You are testing an anchor, give us the detail - do not make it appear you are making it up later.

And people wonder why I am a sceptic.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:49 AM   #636
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Quote by Noelex:

I have an obligation to forum readers to report accurately any problems that have occurred, which I have done, but I also have some some obligation to the manufacturer to test the current (not obsolete) product and with more effort on my part these problems could have been avoided.
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Note : I am currently testing a Mantus anchor that has been provided at no charge. end Quote.

Well Noelex I think you also have the same obligation to this forum, its a pity you had to clear it up here.

By the way what happened to photo of the Mantus on you bow roller where the shank was noticeably bent about 5 degrees prior to the big blow, it was removed until someone requested from you a shot of the Mantus on your bow roller to gauge actual size, you obliged but it was not the same photo that you removed, my son printed it of, if you cannot find it I will ask him to dig it up for me.

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Old 10-02-2014, 06:31 AM   #637
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I am not sure what delay you are referring too. I have detailed a blow by blow description of everything that has occurred with the trial. Most of the time I have published a description and photos, the same day, of how the anchor set just a few hours before.

All the details about the shank have been were posted.

You seem to be inferring I am hiding information. Nothing could be further from the truth? Surely if these problems that you detail were being hidden you would not know about them?

I am happy to answer any questions, but the mild steel shank is no longer produced. Mantus have offered to replace the existing shanks. Is this minutiae relevant, or of interest?
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:25 AM   #638
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Rex this is photo in the same anchorage before and after the strong wind arrived. I think you can just see enough of shank in the first photo to agree it is nice and straight.

My waterproof camera does have a slight amount of distortion at the extreme wide angle setting and this may have caused your impression.
If you PM me details of the photo I should be able to dig up the original.

Mantus have upgraded their shank from mild steel to ATSM 514 and even agreed to replace existing shanks.

You have indicated you are going to do a similar change. Upgrading the shank of the Super SARCA from mild steel as it is at the moment to Bisalloy 80 (which is almost identical to ATSM 514).

Have you done this yet?

Can you give us time frame when the Super SARCA will have a hi tensile shank?



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Old 10-02-2014, 07:27 AM   #639
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Noelex,

I believe you use a sensible nylon snubber, consequently loads would have been minimised - no shock loads. The anchor is oversized and is actually sized as a Storm anchor, not a cruiser anchor - but Storm, 50 knots or more. You mention short scope, the scope was 5:1 - this is not 'short', maybe not long but not exceptional.

Shank strengths have been discussed on this forum and I think others, they are a topic of interest - we want to know what are limits of strength or weakness.

Given the sensitivity of the issue over shank strengths I wonder why you received a mild steel shank (even if it was sent in November - who not wait till December when all shanks were HT steel), I wonder why you used a mild steel shank in the first place. I wonder how many other mild steel shanks are out there - waiting to fail. You suggest you are performing a public service - why are you not making more people aware, who have these mild steel shanked anchors, of the issue -

excuse me if I think you are extolling the virtues and downplaying the weakness

It must be heart warming for you to be able to attack other anchor makers (about which no-one has complained, whilst only extolling the virtues of one given to you.

I do not like glossy pictures without the technical detail, sorry I asked? But I should not need to ask.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:43 AM   #640
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