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Old 09-30-2014, 08:18 PM   #601
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My roll bar anchor (Supreme) has come up clean but I don't use it much.

Only big load of mud I've pulled up was on a Danforth.
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:18 PM   #602
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One designer of a roll bar anchor.....what about the other's and their opinions?

Still on the Rocna website...
Features of the Rocna Original:
  1. Instant set: The roll-bar ensures that it always lands on the ideal angle for penetration, plus reinforces the blade for massive strength"
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:22 PM   #603
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Sometimes you have to invent your own problems to solve...
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:58 PM   #604
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I taint no anchor slut! Began happily engaged then happily married to Danforths and that anchor design since late 50’s. Haven’t yet tried one other type; see no need.

Fortress Anchor interests me considerably with its 45 Degree capability, mud palms, and light weight. I see it as Danforth design on steroids.

I’m (slowly) in process of fooling around with some “mud-bottom-setting” anchor modifications; on lightweight aluminum "Viking" anchor (Danforth design manufactured in 1970’s +/-). Planning to purchase an FX-23… for mud bottom in SF Delta. I just sold a classic (original) 30 lb Danforth and still have four anchors aboard, 2-Danforths, 2-Danforth design. FX-23 will replace at least one maybe two!

From reading this exceptionally interesting thread as it has grown I feel confident that there are several well designed anchors available. Bottom condition and its general composition tends to potentially place more need for one design anchor than another.

IMHO… Having anchored hundreds of times over decades, with Danforth design anchors, in many different bottom conditions on both coasts, and, successfully 99.5% of the time - - > It’s how you gently release your anchor into the water allowing it to properly settle toward the bottom while you feed the rode as boat slowly backs away to point of approximately seven to one scope. Then resting a moment (2 to 5 minutes – depending on circumstances) with boat in neutral while anchor begins its own set via draw of current/wind. Then, remaining in idle place boat in reverse to better set anchor and slowely increase reverse power to make sure anchor set is well positioned; always keeping eye on land items to determine if anchor is pulling-through or if it is setting firmly! Once you feel anchor is well set the scope can be reduced to five to one. I feel that should be the least scope and only if needed due to wind/current swing conditions in relation to other factors in close proximity.

Correctly setting an anchor (of any type) is an art and it's actually pretty simple. All that is required is to follow the steps, take it slow, and have patience. Each time I set anchor gives me a thrill to do it correctly and successfully. I love to watch the anchor as it gently "float/glides-downward" away from boat's bow and the rode is being released at just the right amount and tension to keep the anchor in best position (angle) when it reaches bottom.

Many years ago dad and I were just a great pair for anchoring. He on the bridge, me on the bow! We had successful fun every time!!

I call this “Anchor Whispering”

Happy Anchor Setting Daze! - Art
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:57 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
My roll bar anchor (Supreme) has come up clean but I don't use it much.

Only big load of mud I've pulled up was on a Danforth.
Hummm - Danforth design was setting well into mud... I take it!
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:26 AM   #606
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You are quite right, not a problem at all - only the designer of the anchor thinks so and he has put his money where his heart is, designed an anchor without a roll bar and denigrate his original design - you are right, just a fairy tale.

Either you think the designer great (as he designed your anchor) or you think him an idiot because he now says the design is flawed - you have chosen your route, we have the message, the designer thinks otherwise..

I think what Rocna have done was quite predictable. Their previous model does not fit a number of boats because of the roll bar . Releasing a non roll bar model is quite logical.

I doubt if we will ever hear from Rocna which anchor they feel is superior. Manufacturers are generally reluctant to rate their models. Even Manson who produce almost every type of anchor available are very coy about which models they consider are superior.

The comments in the patent application are nothing extraordinary. No one claims the roll bar does not have disadvantages as well as advantages. Non symmetrical need some means of righting themselves and adopting the correct setting position and there is no perfect answer.

If the new anchor had been released first and they were writing a patent application for a roll bar, no doubt it would say something like:

The roll bar ensures the anchor adopts the correct setting attitude without the weight and bulk associated with a large amount of ballast on the tip. The thinner tip profile allows the anchor to penetrate hard and weedy substrates and the weight can be distributed to increase the fluke area.

It is great to see so many new anchors released. The Steel Spade is an excellent anchor and the Ultra is very good. The release of a new anchor with similar characteristics to these two anchors is promising. Time will tell.

Note : I am currently testing a Mantus anchor that has been provided at no charge.
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:23 AM   #607
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Just perfect!

Hey, mods. What about changing "Anchors and Anchoring" to "Anchor Sluts"? A great way to increase viewership with all the mis-directed Google hits you'll get.
Aaah…no…I think we'll pass on that Angus. Thanks for the thought though...
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:34 AM   #608
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Quote:
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I think what Rocna have done was quite predictable. Their previous model does not fit a number of boats because of the roll bar . Releasing a non roll bar model is quite logical.
I agree.
I doubt if we will ever hear from Rocna which anchor they feel is superior. Manufacturers are generally reluctant to rate their models. Even Manson who produce almost every type of anchor available are very coy about which models they consider are superior.
Also correct...
It is great to see so many new anchors released. The Steel Spade is an excellent anchor and the Ultra is very good. The release of a new anchor with similar characteristics to these two anchors is promising. Time will tell.
Absolutely - good that the search goes on...
Note : I am currently testing a Mantus anchor that has been provided at no charge.
Please keep us informed re the Mantus experience. However….Noelex, on a different tack, or minor thread hijack….
Is your avatar name related in any way to the popular range of NZ designed and largely built range of yachts, the outstandingly most successful being the Noelex 25 trailer yacht..?
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:53 AM   #609
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Hi Peter.
The Noelex 25 and 30 were great yachts.
I owned one many moons ago when the internet first began. I used this name to identify the sort of yacht I owned and as people had come to know me by this identity, it seemed wrong to change when the boat was sold.

The Mantus is proving to be an excellent anchor, but I won't sidetrack this thread.
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:20 AM   #610
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Noelex,

Thank you for the tip. One of my favorite anchors (Spade) has introduced not only one but two new anchors. The "Spoon" seems an appropriate name for a Spade but it appears to be a very close copy of the German Bugel. Not overly impressed but the "Seablade" looks positively brilliant. Has the traditional Spade shank profile but the roll bar is different than the Supreme or Rocna. It's smaller and shorter. Great promise I'd say but I thought that about the Manson Boss and haven't seen any great press yet. Yup really like that Seablade. I may even be able to see one as Fisheries Supply in Seattle is a Spade dealer.

Noelex you are right. If you want to be recognized then changing your avatar is counterproductive. Keep it the same and people will recognize you instantly w/o thinking. Musical avatars are confusing.

Like the Rocna I don't care for the promoters of the Mantus but it seems promising.
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Old 10-01-2014, 11:58 AM   #611
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Please keep us informed re the Mantus experience. However….Noelex, on a different tack, or minor thread hijack….
Is your avatar name related in any way to the popular range of NZ designed and largely built range of yachts, the outstandingly most successful being the Noelex 25 trailer yacht..?
Peter, Noelex has an extensive and very good thread with lots of pictures comparing/promoting his 120# Mantus to a great many smaller anchors here: Photos of Anchors Setting. - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

For consistency of performance the Mantus results in the Fortress test were interesting.
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:11 PM   #612
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Sadly Noelex bent the shank on his Mantus, which he downplayed, but from the evidence it was bent under less than arduous conditions and it was one of the new shanks. The fact that the roll bar also bent on the Chesapeake trials combined with the weak shank is not a good story.
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:24 PM   #613
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Anyone know of an anchor model that never had a shank bent?

I work for a salvage, diving company and I have seen hundreds of recovered anchors of all types...many of all makes with bent shanks.

Mainly Danforth types...even fortresses...luckily they get replaced easy.
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:02 PM   #614
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Sadly Noelex bent the shank on his Mantus, which he downplayed, but from the evidence it was bent under less than arduous conditions and it was one of the new shanks. The fact that the roll bar also bent on the Chesapeake trials combined with the weak shank is not a good story.
As I recall, we had a discussion on another forum about the Mantus shank and we both thought it unlikely the shank of the Mantus would hold up in normal use. That was an unwelcome opinion to express from the point of view of moderator/promoters of that hook, but I am surprised that the "new improved" shank also bent. Are you sure about that? The Mantus seems like a good design if you can accept the limitations of a hoop style anchor, although manufacturing materials can turn a good design in to a poor performer, no matter how much its promoters try to pretend otherwise. The Fortress is the exact opposite - an ok design made a great deal better with the use of better materials and execution. Perhaps Mantus will take the same path at some point?
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:14 PM   #615
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As I recall, we had a discussion on another forum about the Mantus shank and we both thought it unlikely the shank of the Mantus would hold up in normal use. That was an unwelcome opinion to express from the point of view of moderator/promoters of that hook, but I am surprised that the "new improved" shank also bent. Are you sure about that? The Mantus seems like a good design if you can accept the limitations of a hoop style anchor, although manufacturing materials can turn a good design in to a poor performer, no matter how much its promoters try to pretend otherwise. The Fortress is the exact opposite - an ok design made a great deal better with the use of better materials and execution. Perhaps Mantus will take the same path at some point?
No I'm not sure as Noelex has provided no explanation.

Mantus claim to have changed all shanks to the HT version by Dec 2013 (its on their website). Noelex, in early Sept 2014, had had his Mantus for 5 months. This suggest he received it in March. He is in Greece so it might have taken a month to get to him. The anchor was shipped in late Jan or Feb. Why would an anchor maker send an anchor with an 'old' and questionable shank for evaluation?

I think Noelex said the anchor bent after use in 20 knots of wind (though it might have bent on retrieval - but he made no mention of a difficult retrieval).

In the absence of any other explanation its the new shank.

The Mantus shank profile is about 60% of the width of a Rocna, Delta, Excel shank and will have 60% of the strength - assuming the same steel. Noting that the Excel shank uses steel stronger than either the Rocna or Delta. For its weight the Mantus has a larger fluke than any of the others - which will impose higher loads if lifted, broken out, too quickly (but shanks should be designed to accommodate this.

Many shanks bend - but not in 20 knots of wind.
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:28 PM   #616
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Noelex...what do you think bent that shaft?

I hate speculation....
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:41 PM   #617
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No I'm not sure as Noelex has provided no explanation.

Mantus claim to have changed all shanks to the HT version by Dec 2013 (its on their website). Noelex, in early Sept 2014, had had his Mantus for 5 months. This suggest he received it in March. He is in Greece so it might have taken a month to get to him. The anchor was shipped in late Jan or Feb. Why would an anchor maker send an anchor with an 'old' and questionable shank for evaluation?

I think Noelex said the anchor bent after use in 20 knots of wind (though it might have bent on retrieval - but he made no mention of a difficult retrieval).

In the absence of any other explanation its the new shank.

The Mantus shank profile is about 60% of the width of a Rocna, Delta, Excel shank and will have 60% of the strength - assuming the same steel. Noting that the Excel shank uses steel stronger than either the Rocna or Delta. For its weight the Mantus has a larger fluke than any of the others - which will impose higher loads if lifted, broken out, too quickly (but shanks should be designed to accommodate this.

Many shanks bend - but not in 20 knots of wind.
Perhaps Noelex will clarify which kind of shank he had originally. His anchor follows the bigger is better approach in that it would be at least one size larger than the Mantus chart recommends, so one would expect a more robust performance.

Regarding shank bending, I know of one bent Ultra shank prior to the addition of internal reinforcement, but I have never heard of an Excel shank bending, nor a Rocna when their shank was made of Bisalloy. Too springy, I guess. The Fortress shank has bent, but I put that down to the fact that they will bury themselves so well you have to expect that to happen once in awhile.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:31 PM   #618
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Noelex...what do you think bent that shaft?

I hate speculation....
A thin mild steel shank would be a guess.

Photos of Anchors Setting. - Page 23 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:35 PM   #619
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Noelex...what do you think bent that shaft?

I hate speculation....
+1

Noelex was asked to elaborate on another forum, he chose not to respond. In the absence of any comment, and confirmation by testing of the steel, we are left with Noelex and Mantus statements (I simply quote their statements) - and I'm not quite sure why their statements are speculation. they seem very clear and unequivocal to me.

Its is very easy and cheap to test for the steel.

The original was based on mild steel, around 350 MPa, the new shank is meant to be based on ASTM 514 A, around 800 MPa. The 2 steels are like chalk and cheese and can be easily distinguished (on a well found yacht) within maybe 30 minutes).
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:35 PM   #620
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...I know of one bent Ultra shank prior to the addition of internal reinforcement, but I have never heard of an Excel shank bending, nor a Rocna when their shank was made of Bisalloy. Too springy, I guess. The Fortress shank has bent, but I put that down to the fact that they will bury themselves so well you have to expect that to happen once in awhile.
No one wants a bent shaft.
If an anchor shaft bends, is it ok to straighten it and continue use, OR once bent, even straightened, it is then more prone to bend and time to get a new one, and send the old one to Eric for the collection.
And of course, if it needs replacing, with what?
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