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Old 09-26-2014, 11:03 PM   #501
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Scott, its refreshing to hear of anyone realising that their pre-conceptions are possibly no longer valid as those concepts were based on characteristics that have changed with time. It is even more unusual for anyone to say so publicly. I do not think your ideas are unusual, with regard to small anchors struggling in many situation where their larger brethren work perfectly, and we tend to pontificate forgetting that the anchor we use is completely different in size to others with whom we are communicating. But I'd guess that in general larger anchors might set more easily, especially in weed, and (for example) I have heard it often said that large Bruce, say 50kg or more, work much better than smaller ones. I have a friend who says larger Bruce need to be 70kg to work properly!

But when i consider the sheer volume of individual reports of increasing frequency complaining of roll bar anchors clogging and with anchors of any size and relate this to the Fortress testing where some roll bar anchors simply did not set, at all - then I think I need to take notice. But then I anchor in mud and weed, as well as sand and small, loose, rocks so I need ground tackle that must be versatile.

its all about where we anchor and if anchoring in nice clean sand then I actually do not believe that, blindfold, anyone can tell the difference between a correctly sized Fortress, Ultra, Excel or Rocna - its when you get into more marginal areas that anchors tend to more easily differentiated (and Fortress seem to show that in the extreme).

My test is straightforward:

Which anchor(s) would you rather have - the scenario is, you have the 3 grandchildren on board, aged 2, 4 and 6. You and your wife/partner are the grandparents and for reasons outside of your control you are forced to anchor 'now' and the weather is closing in (its going to be awful - and for those reasons outside of your control - no marina to escape to). The seabed can be soft mud, or sand, or weed or pebbles - which anchor do you want to use for each of these 4 seabeds - you are the skipper and you are responsible (and the grandmother and mother when she hears about it will never, ever, forgive you if you are not prepared and put the welfare of those grandchildren in any risk at all)! I'm allowing you (anyone), in order to answer the question, to have any anchor(s) you want. But I'll give a virtual beer to anyone who can minimise their anchor wardrobe

Now sand is easy - any decent anchor will do - but what about the other 3 seabeds?
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:06 AM   #502
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Can't minimize my wardrobe and will continue to carry at least two anchors.. But under the conditions posted ,my all around on the bow anchor an ultra with plenty of chain and if possible scope goes in first. When that is set depending on where I expect the wind and waves my light weight secondary aluminum anchor is placed with short chain and plenty of scope from my dinghy. In my 60 years of gunk holing East coast and Northwest this has always worked for me. Before the Ultra there was the Spade-Manson-CQR-Bruce-Fortress-Danforth-Delta. I owned and used them all. they all worked for me and with a second unit out I pretty much always weathered the blows. In Annapolis harbor I did once neglect the secondary and a TS hit so I dragged a few hundred feet in the mud on a big Bruce with all chain. I like the Fortress it does hold very well(more than necessary) in sand and certain mud bottoms. I look upon it as a high performance specialist as compared to the Ultra a good all around athlete. If I anchored in soft mud and sand all the time it could be my primary.
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:13 AM   #503
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Give me a really huge Super SARCA.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:00 AM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortress Anchors View Post
Since it is clearly spelled out in Smith's bio that he had problems with the Bruce, CQR, and Delta anchors aboard his boat, and notably while anchoring in soft mud bottoms, then it is not much of a stretch to think that he would have later designed the Rocna, and tested it thoroughly, to resolve those problems.

And even if he hadn't, then why not? It is not as though soft mud is difficult to find in bays, lakes, rivers, seas, etc. around the world.

Brian
Yes, it is my understanding it was those experiences which prompted him to undertake his exercise of making a better anchor, from which the Rocna evolved. I suspect he was inspired to some extent by the Sarca which preceded the Rocna, and was already in production . However, to make it sufficiently different he eschewed the slotted shank, (until recently putting one out for reef fishing, I understand), and went for a concave fluke. There are pros and cons for both approaches.
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Old 09-27-2014, 05:50 AM   #505
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Now sand is easy - any decent anchor will do - but what about the other 3 seabeds?
Very interested in this issue as to the other three seabeds, rock, vegetation, and mud.

The mud has been explained by the Fortress test, but the rock and vegetation?

Current primary anchor is a Rocna which holds very well in my current cruising area, but the day may come when we move and I will then replace my secondary anchor (Bruce) with something to fit the most seabed types between the two.
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:36 AM   #506
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Bay Pelican

In setting my 'problem' - it was based on what we have experienced. We have anchored in areas of coral where the seabed might be sand but with lumps of varying sizes of dead coral, sometimes these lumps are numerous (and large). We have moved out of the balmy waters of coral where we 'started' our cruising (they have become too popular) and now find anchorages where the seabed is sometimes simply composed of stones and pebbles (anything from 1" to 1') These latter anchorages are in bays fed by fast flowing mountain streams and rivers. Weed occur everywhere and is more common. We found one lovely sand anchorage, that on closer investigation was 2" of sand over 2" pebbles.

Fortress have made a very good attempt at 'quantifying' mud, once in SF in the early 90's and the recent tests in Chesapeake. The superiority of the Fortress was not a surprise (the advantage of the 45 degrees was still stunning) but it was the inadequacies, in some cases total, of others that was startling

But to us - sand is easy, its the peripheral seabeds that simply do not enjoy and have the background knowledge. The Morgan Cloud reference suggests clogging can be a real issue for roll bar anchors in clay or maybe weed growing in sand/mud.

But what are other persons experience of rock, coral and pebbles, how do others find weed?

So my post was to gain some 'user knowledge' and to suggest that maybe anyone extolling the virtues of their favourite might, in view of Fortress recent revelations and the comments from Morgan's Cloud, like to think "'outside' the box"


We do not carry oversize anchors, they are the size recommended by the anchor makers. But we carry 'lots' but all can act as the primary as they are 'correctly' sized. We have Excel (as a primary in steel) and a disassembled alloy Excel, Spade and Fortress. The Fortress does not fit on our bow roller but assembled stores flat in a bow locker. The Spade, as it can be disassembled, packs easily. We have a rode on a windlass and a complete spare mixed rode. We have no pride and will tie to trees and rocks (and have cordage to do so)! In iffy weather one anchor and rode sit on the foredeck 'in case' and if the forecast is awful will already have been deployed (by dinghy).

The Fortress results, I'm sure it was not the intent, do show the Ultra as being more flexible than many other anchors (including our Spade) though the cost and brashness/glitz are not 'us'. We have been waiting for the gal version
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Old 09-27-2014, 07:57 AM   #507
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Wow what an easy test...

I'll stick with with my newgen roll bar anchor beyond a shadow of a doubt...because I have none. I'm not gonna buy a massive (heavy) Danforth or fotress and have that monstrosity on the bow (no need to)

I have a Danforth stowed below for when I need it....but I may someday get a larger fortress when and if I ever start more remote cruising.

I have NOT heard an alarming number of people saying roll bar anchors clog...what I hear is more people are using nexgen anchors than ever before and are perfectly satisfied by them.

I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.

(and if I was ever in a situation as you described, I'd give up that kind of boating because I never WANT to be in a situation I don't have better control over...there's almost always better options than sitting someplace at the mercy of the weather unless to are really out there someplace far from where I cruise)
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Old 09-27-2014, 08:29 AM   #508
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psneeld Wrote:


I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.


Gee Scott, I though you were solid and would never move, does this mean you would give me some consideration, 22 years the Super Sarca has been around, deployed on all types of water born craft from private to commercial use as a multi purpose anchor, in its time this design was a world first, is it possible that you may now accept me as a local.

Kind Regards.
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:54 AM   #509
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psneeld Wrote:


I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.


Gee Scott, I though you were solid and would never move, does this mean you would give me some consideration, 22 years the Super Sarca has been around, deployed on all types of water born craft from private to commercial use as a multi purpose anchor, in its time this design was a world first, is it possible that you may now accept me as a local.

Kind Regards.
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Never move from what???

I'm not one of the ones that are all of a sudden pushing the Danforth types because of one test. Goes to show how close these posts are really read.

I think there are several newgen anchors that deserve consideration..not necessarily a "run out and replace your anchor" endorsement..but when the time comes..look them all over and consider what they claim to do and how others that use their anchors many nights a year think of them.

I was a huge Bruce/Delta fan....every cruiser around me had that combo on their bow. When I needed a different anchor..I did my homework and bought a nexgen anchor design. Was I sold on any particular design or brand several years ago? Nope..so I picked one. 3 years later of anchoring with it I'm happy and have not seen or heard any reports or tests that suggest I should change because there's a clear winner of "the best anchor" title.

I also have agreed like others that there are specific anchors that out perform others in certain situations. Just like engines...but I only keep one handy in the engine room.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:01 AM   #510
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psneeld Wrote:


I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.


Gee Scott, I though you were solid and would never move, does this mean you would give me some consideration, 22 years the Super Sarca has been around, deployed on all types of water born craft from private to commercial use as a multi purpose anchor, in its time this design was a world first, is it possible that you may now accept me as a local.

Kind Regards.
Rex.

Never move from what???

I'm not one of the ones that are all of a sudden pushing the Danforth types because of one test. Goes to show how close these posts are really read.

I think there are several newgen anchors that deserve consideration..not necessarily a "run out and replace your anchor" endorsement..but when the time comes..look them all over and consider what they claim to do and how others that use their anchors many nights a year think of them.

I also have agreed like others that there are specific anchors that out perform others in certain situations. Just like engines...but I only keep one handy in the engine room.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:08 AM   #511
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But when i consider the sheer volume of individual reports of increasing frequency complaining of roll bar anchors clogging....
Assuming this is even correct-- and in the reading I've done on the subject it is not, at least on a worldwide basis-- it's not a very good gauge of reality. If a whole lot of people start buying bicycles, it's obvious that more people will have problems with bicycles.

Likewise an anchor type. If more and more people are buying a particular type of anchor-- the rollbar in this case-- it stands to reason that the number of people who experience problems-- whatever the reason-- will increase.

Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity.

But where this has recently really been driven home is here in Europe. Today we took a long walk along the Seine here in Paris. While I can't say that every rollbar anchor we saw was a Rocna, there are a ton of them in use over here. Many of the commercial power barges that we saw going up and downriver had rollbar anchors. A number of the converted barges (now liveaboard boats) that we saw have rollbar anchors.

These are craft that the last time I was here and paid attention (maybe six years ago), the dominant type of anchor was the conventional ship anchor (Navy?). Some of the rollbar anchors we saw today were monstrous, I assume well over 200 pounds (the EU requires all inland waterway vessels to carry an anchor capable of holding the vessel against the currents they may encounter).

Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase.

But of all the folks I know personally today who have switched to a Rocna or Manson, every one of them say they feel it's the best anchor they have ever used and they are real happy they made the switch.

We certainly are, which is why I continue to say that in my opinion, the rollbar anchor is currently the best all-round anchor design on the planet. I know there are people who disagree with that, but in the words of Clark Gable in "Gone With The Wind", I don't give a damn.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:08 AM   #512
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Come On scotty lighten up a little. Just a little humor?

Kind Regards.

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Oh Oh - Here comes pict of BOZO smoken a fag again.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:34 AM   #513
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Marin wrote .. one more time.

"Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity."
Marin you've said that for so many years it must be false as it seems there are still other brands of anchors "on your dock" that presumably is a float.

"Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase."
But you've said or/and implied we'd all go to heaven if we'd just get a Rocna and now you say "problems" will increase?


But as to clogging I think they're supposed to clog. That's how they get much of their holding power jamming the seabed into the hoop hole. Interference drag you know. I wish in one of these tests the'd cut the hoop off eliminating the hoop hole, clogging and that advantage to see how much holding power is left.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:43 AM   #514
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"Based on what I see in our marina, and even on our own dock, Rocnas in all sizes are rapidly increasing in popularity."

Marin you've said that for so many years it must be false as it seems there are still other brands of anchors "on your dock" that presumably is a float.
For years, we had the only rollbar anchor on our finger (about 40 boats). There are now about 5 to 10 depending on if one includes the sublets that come and go. And we see a lot more boats with rollbar anchors in the Seaview North yard throughout the year.

Quote:
"Anyway, the bottom line is that the rollbar anchor is becoming increasingly popular, so it is to be expected that the number of people who say they have problems with them will also increase."

But you've said or/and implied we'd all go to heaven if we'd just get a Rocna and now you say "problems" will increase?
Take a statistcs class, Eric, and then get back to me.
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Old 09-27-2014, 11:39 AM   #515
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I hate to throw fuel on this Rocna fire but Rocna is about to release a hoopless anchor for us folks that can't carry a roll bar anchor. The sales rep was talking about getting me one to beta test. We'll see.
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Old 09-27-2014, 11:40 AM   #516
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Marin I'm mostly just jiv'in ya.

I admit the Rocna is becoming quite popular. I think the Supreme is a better anchor but there are fewer of them. Smith and the company have done a great job of promoting it, it's got a catchy name and w enough scope very good performance except mud. But I suspect it's only very slimy mud that gives the Rocna fits. Most of our anchorages are mud bottom and this shortcoming has'nt come to the fore till this Fortress test.

So I think the Rocna is a top performing anchor but I can think of many that I would rather have. The notion that is was finally the world's perfect anchor has been dispelled and I do think they were definitely over rated.

There you have it Marin. An honest post about the Rocna.

Statistics can be a slippery slope.
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Old 09-27-2014, 11:59 AM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex
psneeld Wrote:


I'm with the general crowd that have been using all kinds of anchors for years and are happy with their results and are satisfied with the reports of their cruising friends....as they haven't heard any alarming news either that their anchors are a danger to themselves or a boatload of grandkids.


Gee Scott, I though you were solid and would never move, does this mean you would give me some consideration, 22 years the Super Sarca has been around, deployed on all types of water born craft from private to commercial use as a multi purpose anchor, in its time this design was a world first, is it possible that you may now accept me as a local.

Kind Regards.
Rex.

Never move from what???

I'm not one of the ones that are all of a sudden pushing the Danforth types because of one test. Goes to show how close these posts are really read.

I think there are several newgen anchors that deserve consideration..not necessarily a "run out and replace your anchor" endorsement..but when the time comes..look them all over and consider what they claim to do and how others that use their anchors many nights a year think of them.

I also have agreed like others that there are specific anchors that out perform others in certain situations. Just like engines...but I only keep one handy in the engine room.
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Come On scotty lighten up a little. Just a little humor?

Kind Regards.

Rex.
OK ...really haven't taken too much of this too seriously from the very beginning if you follow my whole line of thinking.

I just find it a challenge when people lock onto one thing...whether it starts with a bad premise or follows up with certainty on a statement that can be read into many ways and come up with a hypothesis for the "many" that has more holes in it than the "swiss cheese" moon theory. Either that bit of amazing thought gets a challenge or if the pitcher throws a ball at my head...I just throw the bat at him...

Forums are never usually a good indicator of the state of mind the poster is in...except for the very talented writers that do grace our forums.

So you see...I'm taking most of this in with a grain of salt and a hope that the wisps of reality shine bright enough for me to pick them out of the "mud"...

For Art...I'm sure there's many here that thought I looked and acted like that long before whomever was kind enough to post that Bozo pic for me. Thankfully all the people who pay me for my nautical efforts think I'm worth every penny.
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:14 PM   #518
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For all those happy with Ronca or Manson I would think you would find the bar less Ultra(price aside) even more pleasing. I did own a Manson which went with my boat when sold, it was very good to me. The only difference I can note between the two is the lack of the bar and the Ultra seems to come up cleaner and is easier to wash off probably due to its clean design and high grade stainless finish. The other great thing about the Ultra is the special ball swivel that insures the anchor mates with the roller and pulpit at the proper orientation. This takes a lot of strain off the windless at a critical time. A custom windless builder once explained to me that one of the greatest strains he has to consider in sizing and gearing was the point at which the anchor comes up and flips over roller.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:35 PM   #519
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Chesapeake Anchor Holding Power Test

The worst thing about a fortress is breaking it out after a strong blow. I collapsed my steel bowsprit after retrieving in 8 ft waves the bottom was clay like mud. If you set it just forget about it you are not going anywhere.
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Old 09-27-2014, 05:27 PM   #520
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The notion that is was finally the world's perfect anchor has been dispelled.....
I don't know that even Peter Smith would claim it's the world's perfect anchor although I'm sure he'd like to think so.

I, however, do think it's the world's best all-around, general purpose anchor design. I think the Sarca is the second best, mainly because of the fact it's designed to be the backside of a shovel blade with its concave fluke.

I admit I've never shoveled dirt in Australia, so perhaps they use the back side of the blade down there. But I've found that I get more resistance and thus pick up more dirt with the concave side of a shovel blade.

Anyway, the rollbar concept, regardless of whose name is on it, is, I think, the smartest general-purpose anchor design to come along to date. The fact the rollbar makes it a hard-to-impossible design to stow on a lot of pulpits, is, I believe, the real reason some of the rollbar manufacturers are starting to offer non-rollbar anchors: when a good chunk of the market can't use your product you'd be a fool not to come up with a product that broadens your market appeal.
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