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Old 07-25-2014, 11:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
I think I`d rather see an independent organization doing the testing, but maybe no one does, and this is the only way testing gets done. Is soft mud bottom a fair all round test for all anchors?

Independent Anchor Performance Testing
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:37 AM   #22
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Chesapeake mud? I'm putting my money on the Danforth. During Irene I didn't even come close to budging.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:49 AM   #23
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Could this mean no more anchor threads? Could the Great Debate be settled?
Sadly, no…because there ain't no Sarca in the list. I'm sure they tried to get one...
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:54 AM   #24
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Hi Brian,
next time you are looking for a match just say anchor test, the whole box will catch fire, anyway you cannot blame the skeptics, new gen anchor slogans and testing has primed everyone, you are a better man than me taking it on and I wish you luck


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Ah, you might want to look at some past anchor test result.
Because my post was not a dig at Fortress. But a joke about how Bruce/claws always seem to come in at the bottom of anchor tests.

You are right Capt Bill, when it comes to holding power, whilst they continue to only static testing you will never see a true comparison, new gen , sharp toes, very wide holding areas, in many cases the bigger is better slogan is alsothrown in with the new gen anchors,all of this contributes to faster setting, Bruce, Claws, and other designs will take longer to produce the same level of holding power.

Believe me they will produce extremely high figures from a decent blow during the night, no one’s measuring- but when trying to retrieve them the next morning-- In some cases I have seen Delta, Bruce and Claw holding power figures that can make new gen anchors look a bit average when comparing surface area and weight,unfortunately you will never see these holding power figures from a static test.

It is what it is though; with these new high performance anchors you do get far more consistent hook ups with a jolt over multiple substrate types than the older anchors.

Are the new Gen anchors Stronger? In most cases no, big difference no moving parts means little to no ware.

Of course the guys that have a lot of anchoring experience will always hook up where an armature never will with an old gen anchor, the learner blames the old designs, fits a new gen with its sharp points and wide holding area, jobs done. Argument seeds are sown.

Any way thats my two bobs worth.

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Old 07-26-2014, 02:00 AM   #25
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Hi Bill, I didn't express myself well. I was suggesting that because you didn't name the loser anchor, we were each going to come up with our own guess. Of course now that you've made your prediction, I'll guess that the CQR will come in last.

Hey, it looks like there is a Claw / Bruce hanging on the bow of the Rachel Carson!
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:11 AM   #26
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Hi Bill, I didn't express myself well. I was suggesting that because you didn't name the loser anchor, we were each going to come up with our own guess. Of course now that you've made your prediction, I'll guess that the CQR will come in last.

Hey, it looks like there is a Claw / Bruce hanging on the bow of the Rachel Carson!
Ok, I just didn't want you to think I was going after Fortress as a company or anything. Like implying their test would not be fair.

Perhaps we need to start a pool predicting where we think anchor X, Y or Z will place in this test?
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:37 AM   #27
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Is soft mud bottom a fair all round test for all anchors?
Thanks all for your input. BruceK, soft mud bottoms are common in bays, lakes, and rivers and are typically a challenge for setting and holding.

Anchor design will certainly be a factor in the performance and end results.

Brian
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:03 AM   #28
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Nice to see the disagreements and hedging comments/positions/qualifications starting over anchor testing just like the anchors themselves.

Like much research done these days....the outcome may be more influenced by the testing bias than anything...and again some anchors will always be fine for some and the worst for others and the debate will rage on.

Because the test is probably not about saving the world..my prediction that the testing will not test and record every situation known to boaters....at best will just give tidbit of info to just reignite many old anchor debates.
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Old 07-26-2014, 09:59 AM   #29
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psneld,

Thanks for your input. We have set up testing parameters and rented equipment which insures that each anchor will be pulled starting with the exact same scope, and then by the exact same pull speed and total distance.

Below is an image of the anchors that will be tested.

Brian
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:17 AM   #30
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Oh yes, Peter Smith has always been my "go-to" guy when it comes to independent anchor testing....
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:19 AM   #31
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psneld,

Thanks for your input. We have set up testing parameters and rented equipment which insures that each anchor will be pulled starting with the exact same scope, and then by the exact same pull speed and total distance.

Below is an image of the anchors that will be tested.

Brian
This is going to be great, Brian. A really good selection of modern anchors and some not so modern but still very widely in use. Thanks to Fortress for undertaking the test.

Would you be willing to include a Sarca Excell if one could be sent to you?
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:33 AM   #32
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Delfin,

I will reserve comment about Peter Smith, the Rocna designer's Independent Anchor Performance Testing, only to say that he mysteriously left out that in Voile magazine, the Fortress FX-23 model held to over 350x its weight and was touted as "the Champion of All Categories." Just a minor omission.

Regarding the Excel, I have heard that it is a terrific anchor but we wanted to only include anchors which are readily available in the USA.

Thanks,
Brian
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:57 AM   #33
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Hey, it looks like there is a Claw / Bruce hanging on the bow of the Rachel Carson!
My guess is that it will still be hanging off the bow of the Rachel Carson after the tests are completed as well.

As Rex noted, there are a lot of variables to which anchors look to be suited for cruising. The new designs seem to eliminate a lot of the skill required to set, say a CQR or perhaps a Bruce/Claw design so have that advantage. However, I think one of the biggest issues is that the forces put on an anchor are a whole lot less than people think they are and of course these have been measured. When you get into 50 knot winds, sure, the loads increase and increase fast, however if an anchor is set well it doesn't matter whether the surface area presented perpendicularly to the sea bed is from manufacturer A vs. manufacturer B. The Fortress/Danforth types generally win in that category simply because I would imagine they present the highest surface area to oppose the direction of drag. Add to that that some anchors - especially those without an obstructing hoop - are better at diving to conditions denser that at the surface and you have another variable to consider. Again, Fortress/Danforth types do well in this category because they present few obstacles to burying themselves, as does the Spade, Ultra, and Sarca.

Further, with a proper snub line or mixed rode, every foot of stretch induced reduces the final load on the anchor proportionally because the force of the wind and wave is dissipated over a distance, not all at once as is the case with anchor tests. I think all of that explains why so many people use Bruce/Claw or CQR designs so successfully for so long and why you still see them on the bows of so many boats. If they were dragging all over the place wouldn't ya think they would have been replaced? Mine never dragged except as noted - once in soupy mud and once because of careless stupidity, so it doesn't surprise me that theirs don't either.

But I do like my Ultra. With it, I can be as brainless in anchoring technique as I like and still get a good result!
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:05 AM   #34
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Regarding the Excel, I have heard that it is a terrific anchor but we wanted to only include anchors which are readily available in the USA.

Thanks,
Brian
Well, anybody could order one and have it arrive if they wanted one.....

There has just been so much speculation on this design and so much sturm und drang generated on other forums it just would be nice to have some more objective data on which to make a comparison. But you certainly can't walk in and buy one off the shelf, so I see your point.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:21 PM   #35
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Daddyo, What size danforths are you using as I am considering up sizing & up grading my anchors on my similar size 48 ocean alexander as Grace. Thanks
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:45 PM   #36
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Brian,
I'm wondering mostly about what scopes will be used. As I recall Fortress and the Manson Supreme have done very well at 3-1 scope in past anchor tests. And other new gen anchors not so well.

Since I know little about the CQR I'm glad it's in the test.

And I'm very glad The Boss, Ultra and Mantus will be in the test. I don't recall that any of them have been tested.

Will the Spade be steel?

Brian I hope consideration has been given to the fact that the test boat is absolutely huge compared to the appropriate boat for the anchors. Setting an anchor is best done slowly and doing it slowly w a test boat that large may be problematic for linear test results. Some anchors may set and hold better if set carefully by a smaller boat. I see tests that say "no mater how hard we tried we couldn't get this anchor to set". That to me is enough to write off the whole anchor test.

Too bad this Dreadnought won't be in the test. The skipper of this boat says it does well in 50 knot summer gales but drags some in 60 knot winter gales. If you could see aloft on his boat he has a lot of windage. Of interest note the offset hydraulic chain reduction drive w motor on top. Usually it's aft of the drum.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:06 PM   #37
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Oh yes, Peter Smith has always been my "go-to" guy when it comes to independent anchor testing....
Since he did not conduct any of those tests himself that I am aware of, just how would he have influence their out comes in a way that would negate the results?
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:32 PM   #38
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Delfin,

It is my understanding that the Kobra, which is made by Plastimo in France, is also an excellent-performing, traditional plow type anchor, but again, not available here in the USA.

Eric, we will not be pulling with the research vessel: it is too big, the bottoms are too soft, and the anchors are too small to be able to get consistent results.

We will be using the aft winch to do the pulling, and we have rented a running line tensiometer that will be installed on the wire rope and is capable of measuring & logging the payout, tension, and pull speed.

The research vessel will be held in place during the pulling by its "state of the art" Dynamic Positioning System.

The plan is to pay out the chain and wire rope to a 5:1 scope + 100 feet (resulting in about an 8.3:1 scope) and then pull back the 100 feet at a rate of 10 feet per minute, so the pull duration will be 10 minutes.

This pull rate of speed was recommended by Bob Taylor, a retired US Navy anchor design and soil mechanics expert, who is consulting for us on this project.

We will be testing the steel Spade anchor.

Thanks,
Brian
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:14 PM   #39
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So you are adjusting for surge and multiple angle pulls like a real boat at anchor?
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:28 PM   #40
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While this will be interesting, let's everyone keep in mind that it will not be any sort of defining test as to the best anchor. When you get testing done by a brand, they're obviously smart enough to test in all conditions that show their product best. Yes, independent review of results, but not an independent choice of conditions. Still, I look forward to the results. Just won't read more into them than they are. They are a test of anchors in one specific setting chosen by Fortress.
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