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Old 09-08-2014, 10:11 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by Art View Post
I'd like to try a Danforth with 45 degree adjustment in muddy bottom... bet it would work quite well!

Art
Art, I bet it would too, if the Danforth had that feature.

As evidenced by the literature that was shared aboard the Rachel Carson testing vessel, anchor manufacturers Baldt, Bruce, Vryhoff, and the US Navy all make anchors with wider shank / fluke angles for soft mud bottom conditions, and the 45° angle pulls with the Fortress served as further proof of this required configuration for superior anchor holding capability in this type of bottom.

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Old 09-08-2014, 10:56 AM   #282
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In many respects I find the anchor industry fascinating and unique (for a whole variety of reasons) but I cannot get to grips with this idea of (some of them, current company excluded) in pursuing a vendetta against 'each other' when the main market is CQR, Bruce, Deltas - and worse thousands of copies, clones and knock-offs, of unknown steel and unknown origin.

And I reiterate, I think Fortress have done us a service as I was totally unaware at the weakness of many of the designs in soft mud.
Totally agree on the value of the Fortress tests, but it is also worth commending the way in which they present their information, and promote their product. Very professional, and in sad contrast to what other manufacturers have resorted to in the past, and still do. For every Anchor Right and Fortress that focuses on engineering and testing to perfect a product, there are those who promote their product by denigrating the competition. Case in point, there is currently on another site an interesting thread on photos of anchors setting. The value of the thread is diminished through its use by the OP of pretty shamelessly promoting one particular anchor design - a good one, no doubt - by comparing the setting of an oversized hook for the OP's boat (given to him by the manufacturer) to other designs of unknown sizing to the vessels deploying them, who used unknown techniques and skill for setting, which are then subtly trashed as inferior.

When the shank of the free anchor being promoted bent after a few weeks of usage, the OP assured us that the anchor was still superior and still performed flawlessly, simply driving home the commercial bias inherent in what was presented as unbiased information.

Like you, I have no clue why anchor promotion so frequently involves sleazy marketing, so I am doubly grateful for those manufacturers that don't play in that mud slinging pit.
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:08 AM   #283
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There's a 50 something Pacemaker three slips from me that has an FX anchor. The last time he was out he broke the anchor pulpit almost off the boat and when he got the anchor up, it looked like new. No bends, scratches or blemishes anywhere.
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:15 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Totally agree on the value of the Fortress tests, but it is also worth commending the way in which they present their information, and promote their product. Very professional, and in sad contrast to what other manufacturers have resorted to in the past, and still do. For every Anchor Right and Fortress that focuses on engineering and testing to perfect a product, there are those who promote their product by denigrating the competition. Case in point, there is currently on another site an interesting thread on photos of anchors setting. The value of the thread is diminished through its use by the OP of pretty shamelessly promoting one particular anchor design - a good one, no doubt - by comparing the setting of an oversized hook for the OP's boat (given to him by the manufacturer) to other designs of unknown sizing to the vessels deploying them, who used unknown techniques and skill for setting, which are then subtly trashed as inferior.

When the shank of the free anchor being promoted bent after a few weeks of usage, the OP assured us that the anchor was still superior and still performed flawlessly, simply driving home the commercial bias inherent in what was presented as unbiased information.

Like you, I have no clue why anchor promotion so frequently involves sleazy marketing, so I am doubly grateful for those manufacturers that don't play in that mud slinging pit.
CLUE:

Sleazy ads that car companies throw at one another, although more well financed and more profound than anchors regarding models' capabilities, basically come down to getting from point A to point B.

Sleazy ads that Anchor companies throw at one another basically come down to one item... staying at point A!

While most model autos can readily provide success in accomplishing getting from point A to point B needs, and, most anchor designs can provide success in accomplishing stay at point A need... then the promotion packages resorted to often become pissen on poles or shatten on heads... in attempt to keep sales growth!

Ah... Capitalism at its finest!
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Old 09-08-2014, 04:41 PM   #285
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So here's the deal. As I've said before, every anchor sets perfectly until the day it doesn't, and no anchor drags until the day it does.

When the anchor we put on the boat when we bought it failed to hold when we really needed it to, we got rid of it, did a bunch of research, and bought an anchor that we thought would be more reliable.

We bought a Rocna back when hardly anyone in the US had heard of them. It was the first Rocna (we were told) sold to the PNW. We decided on the Rocna because we felt-- and still do-- that its design itself is superior to all the other anchors out there for the kinds of bottoms we encounter. This includes the Manson and Sarca, let alone the other, more established anchor types. Some of the design features are, in our opinons, only very slightly better than other anchors-- like the Sarca--- and other aspects of the design we feel are greatly superior to the design of other anchors like the Bruce or CQR.

So far, our anchor has never failed to set the first time. So far, it has never failed to hold in every type of bottom and condition we have encountered. The day may come when it fails to set properly, and the day may come when it drags under pressure. But until that day comes, it is the perfect anchor as far as we're concerned and the performance of other anchors is irrelevant to us.

If the day comes that our anchor lets us down, we will then repeat the process and see what anchor out there does better.

We know people with the exact same attitude as ours, only their perfect anchor is a Bruce, or a CQR, or a Spade, or.....

So the anchor tests, no matter who does them, may be of interest to read about, and in the case of someone shopping for an anchor, they may help form a purchase decision. But I suspect that, as a previous poster wrote, in the end they don't change anyone's mind if the anchor they have has been performing to their satisfaction. The tests and theories and speculation in threads like this do not make a dent in our belief that the anchor currently on our boats, regardless of what it might be, is in fact, the perfect anchor.

Until the day it isn't.
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Old 09-08-2014, 06:47 PM   #286
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So the anchor tests, no matter who does them, may be of interest to read about, and in the case of someone shopping for an anchor, they may help form a purchase decision. But I suspect that, as a previous poster wrote, in the end they don't change anyone's mind if the anchor they have has been performing to their satisfaction. The tests and theories and speculation in threads like this do not make a dent in our belief that the anchor currently on our boats, regardless of what it might be, is in fact, the perfect anchor.

Until the day it isn't.
If I had my way, the thread would/should end here. THAT is the best way to describe that there is NO right answer... there is NO right anchor... and there are too many different designs, conditions, techniques, and bottoms to say... This anchor is the best. It's an impossible question to answer (and I would love to see people stop asking it)
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Old 09-08-2014, 06:54 PM   #287
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Once again Marin, you said it like it is.

My boat, a 1966 and probably launched in 67 still has the original Danforth anchors and it cruised Boston 10 years, then to Miami, then through the canal and to the Los Angeles area for the last 40 plus years. They have held.

I say it just like Marin. They are all good for certain bottom types and some for several bottom types.

Adding this, none for all bottom types.
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:29 PM   #288
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Marin,

Many people have also bought a Rocna and you appear to have much company.

This was posted by a Moderator on another Forum, and I understand that Moderators are chosen because of their in depth expertise and high integrity - though other Forum seem to have different standards of what they consider 'high integrity'. In fact this Moderator is so highly regarded he Moderates on 2 different Forum.

It appears even a Rocna has (at least one?) achilles heel - which coincidentally is exactly, if not uncannily, the performance that Fortress have found in their tests of the Rocna. The quote is of a fairly heavy and highly regarded 54' yacht, not Trawler - but I do not think the vessel type significant - and I do not know the size of the anchor, but assume as he is a Moderator (and thus an old salt?) the anchor is of the size recommended or larger.

quote

Since I only have 100 meters of chain, if I end up 500 meters back from where I dropped the hook, it means the hook didn't go in, so I haul it back up and go around for another pass.

In fact, that determination is made far earlier than 500 meters from where the hook was dropped. A little off topic, but this is one place where a chart plotter, set on highest scale, and with tracks enabled, is incredibly valuable. You can see really well from your track whether and exactly where the hook set. If you are slowly dragging through soft mud (my previous bower anchor, a Rocna, used to love to do that), you can also see that clearly. Transits are all well and good, but you can't get all this information without a plotter.

unquote


Edit: If Fortress had read this post they could have discarded the Rocna from their tests - as so many would rather rely and trust 'real world experience' and could have tested the Super Max or Excel instead - what a wasted opportunity!
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:41 PM   #289
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Like I said, no anchor works on all bottom types, sets quick1 and holds without dragging.

Pick an anchor for your cruising grounds or take two different anchor types.
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:48 PM   #290
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Yep...better to believe "canned" tests than highly respected world cruisers and just about all other cruisers you meet....

All just pieces of the puzzle...no one test, one anchor, one cruiser, one bottom, one boat, technique, etc...is right or wrong.

For a tester to leave out ANY of the majors at any given time would be a waste...especially of their integrity.
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:03 PM   #291
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Tom B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin
So the anchor tests, no matter who does them, may be of interest to read about, and in the case of someone shopping for an anchor, they may help form a purchase decision. But I suspect that, as a previous poster wrote, in the end they don't change anyone's mind if the anchor they have has been performing to their satisfaction. The tests and theories and speculation in threads like this do not make a dent in our belief that the anchor currently on our boats, regardless of what it might be, is in fact, the perfect anchor.

Until the day it isn't.

If I had my way, the thread would/should end here. THAT is the best way to describe that there is NO right answer... there is NO right anchor... and there are too many different designs, conditions, techniques, and bottoms to say... This anchor is the best. It's an impossible question to answer (and I would love to see people stop asking it)
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Rex Wrote: I agree with most of what all say re anchor design, but is not all about who has the best, then again Marin is now a happy man with his anchor and believes it’s the best, one happy customer, Don is another for a different reason, ROLL BAR ANCHOR WOULD NOT FIT HIS Bow roller arrangement as it is a pull pit, because of the Excel he has now been able to upgrade with new technology that will fit, simply because it does not have a roll bar, is Don happy with the performance, we will just have to wait and see.

Now our testing and marketing is to let you guys know that this new technology is available, it hooked Marin and he is great full, Don is hooked as he has committed as well, a good performance will keep him that way, will he ever drag his Excel, of all the anchor types out there new or old design there is still no perfect anchor, Tom that is why technology continues to try and teach us a new way of tying our shoe laces. But I tell you our testing is not fake, what you see is what you get, if Don is not a happy man then he will be fully refunded, so it is not all doom and Gloom.

I do tend to think new anchor technology will now have a breather for a few years as it has been flogged with many different types, enough to dampen new anchor design enthusiasm, so Tom you may have your wish.

So Are our anchors perfect? “There is no perfect anchor” just better ones, and like Marin I believe ours are the better ones, just for the record, I have been testing Fortress anchors for over twenty years and found on 45 degrees nothing in soft mud to better their holding power.

Brian, I know my friend the difficulty you have faced in showing your lunch to all, it is a shame that some think it to be Shamash, unfortunately there are probably many that have good reason for how they see it, but that’s anchor technology, Many don’t believe it is possible, equally will never believe the testing. Why do we do it? Marin and Don have told you why, from their comments we are inspired, back down to the work shop!

Regards Rex.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:39 PM   #292
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Rex wrote;
"I do tend to think new anchor technology will now have a breather for a few years as it has been flogged with many different types, enough to dampen new anchor design enthusiasm."

Don't think so Rex. There's lots of imagination out there. I myself have two ideas for a serious modification of well established anchors. One newer and one 50 years old. If ever marketed properly the XYZ could perhaps rocket to the top and I think it will eventually be at least copied. That's just offshoots of present technology. Too much of all anchors are a waste of weight and things like unnecessarily long shanks and flukes. Undesirable and wasteful features are incorporated in most anchors to overcome problems that seem insurmountable but I think solutions will be found that will make anchors more efficient. That's exactly how the present anchors old and new came to be. And how the new anchors of the future will be created.

I think anchor design should be done in reverse. Exclude all elements of anchor design that don't lead directly to maximum holding power. Create the ultimate "thing" that will be most difficult to extract from being buried 1, 2 or 3' that is as small and light as can be. And exclude all anchor designs already in existence for consideration or inspiration. Maximize that part of the design and then consider variations that will overcome the fact that the ideal anchor won't set or stow handily on the bow of the typical boat. Obviously a perfect anchor that is 100% efficient will never come to pass but I remain convinced a significantly better anchor will happen. There is just so much room for improvement that it's unavoidable.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:18 AM   #293
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So here's the deal. As I've said before, every anchor sets perfectly until the day it doesn't, and no anchor drags until the day it does. ...
It's comforting to know that a "better" anchor is available whenever my present claw fails (and the claw on my earlier sailboat hadn't failed and which was much hand's friendlier than the Danforth). For those already possessing the "ultimate" anchor, they would seem to have less confidence of finding a better anchor.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:24 AM   #294
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It's comforting to know that a "better" anchor is available whenever my claw fails. For those already possessing the "ultimate" anchor, they would seem to have less confidence of finding a better anchor.
Humorous - yet - Well put, Mark!
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:49 AM   #295
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From the current Rocna home page


Our non-roll bar self-setting 3rd Generation Rocna Anchor is coming soon.
Please check back for more details and sneak peeks! Initial Size offering will be from 4kg to and including 55kg.


No new developments?
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:11 AM   #296
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So, an upcoming anchor without roll bar will be superior? ... fascinating.
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Old 09-09-2014, 03:34 AM   #297
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..... but this is one place where a chart plotter, set on highest scale, and with tracks enabled, is incredibly valuable. You can see really well from your track whether and exactly where the hook set. If you are slowly dragging through soft mud (my previous bower anchor, a Rocna, used to love to do that), you can also see that clearly. Transits are all well and good, but you can't get all this information without a plotter.
Well, actually you can. One of our anchoring "teachers" is a fellow in our boating club with decades of experience (40' sailboat) in these waters from Puget Sound well up along the BC raincoast. He and his wife are still at it today, and the only electronics on their boat are a VHF radio and a depth sounder. No plotter, no radar, no RDF, no AIM, just the radio and the sounder.

He taught my wife and I to judge everything we need to know about our position relative to our anchor and whether or not we are set, staying put, or dragging by the trees along the shore. One can tell everything one needs to tell by watching the trees. And that's all we've been using for the past bunch of years.

Now if one boats in an area that does't have a forested shore, then perhaps a plotter would prove useful as described in the post I quoted above. But we have no shortage of trees up here.

The only electronic tool we have added to our anchoring arsenal of anchor, chain, windlass, trip line, and trees is the Drag Queen app from Active Captain. Clever thing, that, and we have it on our iPads and iPhone.
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:12 AM   #298
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So, an upcoming anchor without roll bar will be superior? ... fascinating.
Mark I've been saying for a long time the roll bar isn't ideal. And now it seems to be (as I predicted) a fad of sorts. Gotta give them some credit though as they do tend to respond to market trends as in what's selling. They were quick to come out w the slotted shank (like the Supreme) but an extra anchor was needed to get it. However the only slotted shank worth having is the slot on the Super Sarca .. IMO. And if one did use the whole slot on the Rocna or the Supreme I think the probably of a reset even if it broke out is so high that it should'nt be a concern on a reasonably good bottom. But I still think the Supreme is probably the best over-all anchor and not that pricy. And available at West Marine.

And Oh Boy ... the Rocna people are going to offer us "sneak previews" WOW! I can hardly wait.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:10 AM   #299
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The "bottom" line is that no single anchor performs exceptionally well in all bottom conditions....and in those bottom conditions where it does not perform well.....will it be good enough to keep the boat safe and secure during adverse, unpredicted events?

The Fortress anchor will be challenged in grass, weeds, and rocks, possibly more so than other anchor types as it has two large flukes which might make penetration more difficult. No debate there.

We have heard that the Fortress is sharp enough to slice through grass and weeds and penetrate into firmer holding that is below, but I suspect that this is the exception, rather than the rule.


During the recent soft mud tests, we found a common bottom that was a challenge for ALL anchors, particularly those which are not specifically designed for this type of soil.

We saw several performances, some of which were from the highly-touted recent anchor designs, that were so shocking and disturbing that a comment was made among witnesses that these anchors should be sold with a warning label when used in soft mud.

Take from this testing what information you find helpful, or discard it as useless, its obviously your choice.


The ultimate goal is boater safety, and if that safety can be achieved using Brand X, Y, or Z anchors, which meet and exceed the boater's holding power needs in the wind and bottom conditions where they regularly anchor, then that's great.

Awareness and education are part of the keys to that safety, whether it be proper scope or anchoring techniques, or using the right anchor that is optimal for the specific bottom and wind conditions which the boater is likely to encounter.

And if we at Fortress can assist with this awareness and education, then great, once again, and maybe also sell a few anchors along the way as well, which help keep boaters safe and having fun on the water, then that's a bonus.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:26 AM   #300
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Personally, I think having a FX on your boat is a must do. If not for the stern anchor then the bow. As a stern anchor it stows away easily and can be set either from the boat or your dinghy. Most of my boating friends have them and rave about them. I don't own one yet but when I finish my restoration projects I'll have one.

Just my 2 cents.

On the anchor drag subject. I thought everybody had shore based markers they used to determine position set and if you were dragging. Relying on technology alone doesn't pass the smell test for me. You can always find a rock, tree or something on shore as a mark.
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