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Old 12-16-2014, 11:51 PM   #21
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Jay N,

Interesting looking winch.

How does the winch coil the cable and chain so neatly, what stops it bunching at one side or the other?

edit: I note you have your shackle pin though the anchor slot. Some informed opinion suggests that having the bow of the shackle through the slot offers better articulation (unless the eyes of the shackle will not fit the slot). It is more difficult to see but the shackle does not look to be a rated shackle, and that is not moused? end edit.
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Old 12-17-2014, 12:51 PM   #22
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Djbangi: "How does the winch coil the cable and chain so neatly, what stops it bunching at one side or the other?"

I stand above the winch with my foot on the deck switch and guide the wire/chain on with a pair of rubber gloves. Cons: It takes a little effort to guide. Pros: I am able to inspect the assembly whenever the anchor assembly is used. Also, the cable always comes up clean, the 40' of chain is cleaned by water flush when retrieving, if needed.

Djbangi: "I note you have your shackle pin though the anchor slot. Some informed opinion suggests that having the bow of the shackle through the slot offers better articulation (unless the eyes of the shackle will not fit the slot). It is more difficult to see but the shackle does not look to be a rated shackle, and that is not moused?"

The slot in the 44lb Delta will not permit less than a 7/16" shackle, and a 7/16" shackle pin will not fit in the 5/16" G4 chain links. Best Compromise: A 7/16" load rated shackle (WLL 3000 lbs) is fitted to the anchor slot, a 3/8" load rated shackle (WLL 2000 lbs) is fitted to the anchor shackle with its pin fitted to the 5/16" chain. All shackles moused with SS wire (the pic wasn't very clear to see this). 16 years of good service with the above assembly, have periodically renewed shackles and SS cable.


I have looked at purchasing a 13/32" SS shackle certified at 7250 lbs BS, but shackle length is still not a good fit for the slot. Have considered enlarging the slot.


Sorry to get away from the galvanizing topic
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:41 PM   #23
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I've never used a snubber nor chatted w anybody that has however I assume they are to act as a shock absorber on a chain rode. I can't relate to 8 feet (or so) of nylon line as having a useful amount of stretch so as to act as a good shock absorber. Forty feet of nylon line will start to feel like a bunji chord and a mostly nylon rode will have more shock absorption than anyone can use. But the length of the bridles I've seen should be almost totally worthless as a shock absorber. A 50' length of nylon w a chain hook on either end in the rode w appropriate slack in the chain should work great. When you guys talk about the snubber line is that what you're referring to?

As a minimalist I use only 15' of chain mostly as ballast and partly to keep the business end of the rode a bit cleaner. But the 435' of nylon line in the rode is one very good bunji.

I'd love to have a bridle though and have wondered how to pull that off w the nylon rode. Thought of having two jam cleats to grab the line. Anybody ever seen that done?
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:45 PM   #24
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There are 2 types of rated galvanised shackles. Looking at a 3/8th inch you can buy them easily with a WLL of 1t and a safety factor of 6:1. Lots of them now seem to come from China, but Peerless for one still seem to make them in America. The other type of gal rated shackle are, for a 3/8th inch, 2t WLL. They only seem to be made in America, though there is now an exception - CMP (same as Rocna CMP) are introducing a similar range, made in China. So I guess we might see a flood of similar shackles from China.

Peerless (under their Peerlink brand), Campbell and Crosby make these stronger shackles. Everyone raves about the Crosby product, I'm not sure why as they only make to a 4.5: safety factor and Peerless and Campbell make to a 6:1 safety factor. But a 3/8th inch shackle with a min break strength of 9t (Crosby) or 12t (for Peerless and Campbell) is well over specced for a 5/16th inch G43 chain.

If you cannot buy in a chandler visit your local lifting gear specialist - they, rated shackles, are demanded in the lifting industry.

CMP shackles in Oz could not be used for lifting, they apparently do not have the right marks and maybe are not tested in accordance with lifting requirements - you would need to ask.

Rated shackles should be marked with size, they tend to be imperial, WLL, manufacturer, country of origin (maybe only in America) and code that denotes batch number or date of manufacture. Peerless, campbell and Crosby Proof Test each of the heavier duty shackles.

Stainless shackles simply do not comet with gal shackles.
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
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I've never used a snubber nor chatted w anybody that has however I assume they are to act as a shock absorber on a chain rode.
Well yes Eric, but equally importantly they take the load off the windlass, so it does not get damaged by high loading on gears etc. And if the snubber fails, it fails safe (kind of) as the load returns to the winch.
Plus chain clank, bothersome at night, is eliminated.
I have one of those rubber bars designed as a mooring line shock absorber fitted inline on my snubber. Always had it, so not sure of the difference, if any, it makes.
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Old 12-17-2014, 05:43 PM   #26
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Those in line rubber mooring snubbers, Taylor Made make them, that you make 3 or 4 turns round are equal to about 20% of a 30' length of nylon. So to get the same elasticity as the nylon snubber - you would need 5 in line. I know which are cheaper!

I have not done the calculations on anything bigger but

A 10t yacht veering at about 1 knot develops kinetic energy and when it hits the end of an inelastic chain that energy needs to go somewhere. In the absence of a snubber it impacts the windlass/bow gear and anchor (some might be taken up by the catenary). But at 30 knots there is minimal catenary left.

A 10m length of 12mm nylon has the capacity to absorb all of the energy of that 10t yacht moving at 1 knot. This means there is minimal impact on your anchor or windlass/bow gear. If you have a 5m snubber it will not absorb all that energy.

You can scale up for bigger vessels with thicker nylon. it does not matter if you use anchor plait or 3 strand - the elasticity is similar, anchor plait is more tactile.

The advantage of nylon is that it will continue to work as wind speeds increase but just when you need it, at +30 knots, there is no catenary left (unless you have 600' of 1/2" chain.)

A short snubber takes the load off the windlass - it offers no energy absorbing characteristics, or not enough to mention.

If you use a snubber then you should also have a fall back, in case the snubber fails. You do want any load on the windlass.

If you use a mixed rode the nylon acts as a snubber.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
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I've never used a snubber nor chatted w anybody that has however I assume they are to act as a shock absorber on a chain rode. I can't relate to 8 feet (or so) of nylon line as having a useful amount of stretch so as to act as a good shock absorber.
Eric, with a combination rode you don't need a snubber unless you are only putting out a small amount of line, which is not possible with your short amount of chain. The rode will provide sufficient stretch.

For those using all chain in bad weather, a snubber is an important component of the anchoring system. It provides some elasticity in the system even when the chain catenary has all but disappeared.

Without some stretch the forces on the anchor from short term shock loading is higher. The snubber will reduce the peak loading by spreading the force over a longer period of time.

As you say, 8 feet of nylon will take the load off the anchor winch and reduce the chain noise, but really does not add much stretch. The snubber needs to be a thinner diameter than would be used for ordinary rode and somewhere in the order of 10-15m (30 to 45 feet) in bad conditions.

It is possible to have too much stretch so that boat springs forward in the lulls. It can then develop significant momentum as it moves backwards again. So some experimentation is a good idea, but it is more common to see a snubber that is too short.
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:44 AM   #28
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Option 2 is to use a heavy weight secured to the chain or slid on with a rode rider that will assist the catinary when in the wind lulls.

The weight will sink to the bottom so there is some movement before the chain goes rod tight.

Works on nylon anchor line too.

http://www.greenboatstuff.com/abipobranror.html
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:13 AM   #29
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Option 2 is to use a heavy weight secured to the chain or slid on with a rode rider that will assist the catinary when in the wind lulls.

The weight will sink to the bottom so there is some movement before the chain goes rod tight.

Works on nylon anchor line too.

ABI Hardware Polished Bronze Anchor Rode Rider
How heavy a weight?
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:30 AM   #30
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FF I have one of those that I made out of lead ballast weights for commercial fishing bouys/floats. 12lbs of lead. The "rode rider" in FFs post of course allows one to quickly attach whatever ammount of weight that is within reasonable limits. Called a sentential or a Kellet. Aussies call them "anchor buddies". Because of my short scope and small amount of chain Rex recommended I use one several times. So I made one.

Noelex,
Going to all the trouble to employ a 45' snubber I'd be inclined to just use a combination rode w only about 45' of chain. A 35 to 40' trawler w 20' of 1/2" chain and 25' of 3/8" chain should have lots of centenary protection and plenty of shock absorbing nylon line. Of course this is academic as few have a good enough winch to accommodate such a rode. I tend to think in ideal terms and then go from there. And I think the above chain arrangement would have the best centenary advantage if the heavier chain was positioned closer to the boat. I believe we had a discussion about that 5 or so years ago.
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:24 AM   #31
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Noelex,
Going to all the trouble to employ a 45' snubber I'd be inclined to just use a combination rode w only about 45' of chain. A 35 to 40' trawler w 20' of 1/2" chain and 25' of 3/8" chain should have lots of centenary protection and plenty of shock absorbing nylon line. Of course this is academic as few have a good enough winch to accommodate such a rode. I tend to think in ideal terms and then go from there. And I think the above chain arrangement would have the best centenary advantage if the heavier chain was positioned closer to the boat. I believe we had a discussion about that 5 or so years ago.
A combination rode has a lot advantages as you mention. The big problem is chafe. Rope is not as safe as chain.

Many boats insist on an all chain rode for this reason. If a snubber is broken by chafe the chain is still present as a back up. If chafe is unlikely to be a problem a combination rode saves a lot of weight.

All chain is also easier to manage with an electric/hydraulic anchor winch, but the lighter weight of a combination rode is a big help if retrieving by hand.

Heavy chain close to the anchor does help catenary, but most of the effect is lost when it needed, in strong wind. The thicker chain also slightly inhibits the anchors diving. A Thin SS wire or a Dyneema strop has been suggested as superior, in some circumstances, for this reason.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:56 PM   #32
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Option 2 is to use a heavy weight secured to the chain or slid on with a rode rider that will assist the catenary when in the wind lulls.

The weight will sink to the bottom so there is some movement before the chain goes rod tight.
My boat came with a virginal looking Anchor Buddy, a catenary weight with quite some design to it, made in NZ. Never actually used it, must give it a go, but with the Super Sarca and all chain....
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Old 12-18-2014, 05:13 PM   #33
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Big thumbs up to post 31 and 32.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:03 PM   #34
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I know I said this would, specially for the season of goodwill, be a non contentious thread.

But, say, a 20lb sentinel/anchor buddy is equivalent to 20' of 5/16th chain (and obviously less chain if the chain is heavier duty). Really deploying an extra 20' of chain is neither here nor there, or adding a 20lb sentinel is neither here nor there. To make much difference to the rode angle you are going to need quite a large sentinel and if possible you would be better with more chain in the first place.

If a reason to deploy the sentinel is because you have restricted space then your second anchor (which in my book should be the same weight (if its steel) as the primary) can replace the sentinel (and obviously have a role as a standby/replacement anchor). You can deploy 'down' the rode or simply hang off the bow, or stern if it will not tangle in the prop or rudder, such that it simply scrapes along the seabed as a sort of friction break - it an old Navy trick.
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:59 AM   #35
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The joy of a weight is the ease that a good deal of weight can be deployed .

Scuba belt weights at 10 lbs each 5 or 6 can easily be added.

The weight if allowed to slide along the chain , not just dropped underfoot, creates a huge lever that must be raised almost to the surface before the chain is BAR tight .

This softens the ride considerably .

Remember too, more weight can easily be added as sliding the rider back aboard does not disturb the anchor set.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:42 PM   #36
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I find it interesting that threads like this, focussed on chain, evoke little response (with no disrespect to those who have contributed). This suggests to me that most people are satisfied and that chain and some other components in the rode is/are not the source of many significant issues.

Unlike anchors, where a thread will engender fierce debate (are there are other topics with the same propensity for debate?) it does not appear that we want a 'better' chain. We do want, if it can be developed, a better anchor (i'm not suggesting thread drift - its simply an example) - but we all seem happy with what, in terms of chain, is currently available - or do not think chain can be improved.

There is no fierce debate over G30 and G43. There is no mention of G70. Galvanising, as is, is accepted. Chain marking and certification is not a significant discussion point. There is no significant differences between suppliers (presumably its about availability, cost and which retailer one likes),
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:08 PM   #37
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I find it interesting that threads like this, focused on chain, evoke little response (with no disrespect to those who have contributed). This suggests to me that most people are satisfied and that chain and some other components in the rode is/are not the source of many significant issues.
I suspect "out of sight out of mind". Essentially, rode is is either inside a closed locker, or underwater, save in either case for a small visible section. The article has me, and maybe others, thinking chain (condition, adequacy, attachments, etc).
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Old 12-19-2014, 08:19 PM   #38
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In terms of adequacy - there are very few reports of new(ish) brand name chain actually failing and even old, some of un-known origin, chain, that has been re-galvanised, is not reported as failing. Historically most people used BBB or G30 and many still do thus the conclusion might be that G30 is perfectly adequate (and G40 or G43 - might be overkill). - This is on the basis the G30 is of a correct size for the vessel and the G40/43 is that same size (once you down size G43 because its (stronger) then there must be a question mark as you can downsize 'too' much).

As reports of G30 chain failing are few and far between one must also conclude the safety margins are quite high (and there is no need to sped that extra money on G43).

Failure, of chain, does occur but this appears to be chain of unknown (or questionable) origin. But some reports are so unreliable as to be useless (and commonly point a finger in a blanket like manner at 'China' - which is too sweeping).

Most failures reported are the components, shackles, swivels - and some, or even many, of these appear to be owner error (wrong choice or inadequately attached).

The only 'complaint' of chain appears to be galvanising, or wear of same (and many then simply regalvanise).

But interestingly though galvanising wear is a feature that people can comment on no-one comments on any subsequent chain wear, i.e. wear of the underlying raw chain (once the galvanising has gone), and anyone living on their vessel at anchor will suffer wear, initially of the galvanising, then the chain. For G43 this might not be an issue if the chain was of the recommended size but for those that downsized when they moved to G43 and those that downsized and now use G70 this is a real (and unreported) issue - as the raw steel is not very abrasion resistant.

Most wear will not be at the anchor, or near the anchor, as the chain near the anchor does not move very much. Wear will be that bit of the chain commonly sweeping the seabed in a huge arc (say that bit from 30'-60' from the anchor) - which most of us never see, its either on the seabed, or buried inside the chain locker - which is the point Bruce made. Corrosion of this worn chain is not an issue (it might be a warning sign normally) as the frequency of usage (for liveaboards) means the chain never visually degrades (as rust is worn off quickly or never has time to develop).

Possibly this has never been an issue historically as G30 has that large safety factor, some have gone to G43 which increases that safety factor and it might only be an issue for those that live on their vessel, downsized to G43 and G70 and this downsizing seems to be a recent phenomena (so little owner comment).
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:46 AM   #39
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Like single vs twin , the chain folks have a point of view , and the combined rode folks have a very different point of view.

Chain in coral is great ,for me thats about it.

Nylon is easier to handle and usually doesnt stink below.

Happily the nylon GOD does not require me to kill all the chain GOD worshiping folks , so there is less comment from each community.
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