Bye Bye XYZ

[CamanoFolks]

Just a quick FYI to Larry H. Alec does have a 50kg Bruce on his Krogen 42. A much heavier boat that the Krogen 39. Watching Alec anchor is a truly educational sight. When he backs down on that Bruce, I swear that the bottom usually rises several feet! If you get a chance, raft up to Alec cause he ain't goin nowhere.

 

[Larry H]

krogenguy,

Thanks for the correction on Alec's boat size. I first met him at Princess Louisa and marveled at that hook, then I watched him anchor at Bottleneck Inlet last summer. Reversing at several knots, then dropping that monster Bruce. I think the bottom did shake a little. LOL

 

[Nomad Willy]

Anchoring can be a very laborious operation. In the Hemingway's cruising guide books they often drop a small anchor (Danforth I think) to determine what kind of bottom is down there but I do'nt recall them going to the hold to select the appropriate anchor for that bottom. Many boaters carry two anchors on the bow and some would like to carry three.

One for most bottoms.
one for mud.
One for rocks.

Regarding dragging most skippers blame the size of the anchor or the brand of the anchor before they blame the bottom. People tend to have a mindset that our mechanical contrivances triumph over everything.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The first paragraph of the first post was what I intended the thread to be about and we've stayed on topic better than on most threads. At this time, however I have an update. I have another fluke (minus the nose piece) and a shank and was about to throw them out in disgust but a few days ago I thought of a way to easily make one myself. Not only make one but I think what I have in mind will work better than the original.
My plan is to make a nose piece rectangular in shape instead of pointed. Extremely chisel like in shape, as wide as the original, about 1" longer and a bit thicker. Probably out of 4140 steel. Should set on it's side extremely well as the side of the anchor won't be like a straight edge laying down (as the original) presenting a long edge to the bottom so not much pressure can be exerted in any one spot. But w my new chisel tip the corner will present lots of weight in a very small spot and instant penetration should result. If the anchor is to set right side up it may not work as well but like so many other anchors they are designed to set laying on their sides.
So what do you guys think?

 

[Marin]

How do you know it will always end up on its side?

 

[Larry H]

Anchoring can be a very laborious operation. In the Hemingway's cruising guide books they often drop a small anchor (Danforth I think) to determine what kind of bottom is down there but I do'nt recall them going to the hold to select the appropriate anchor for that bottom.

My understanding of the Hemingways guide is that they sample the bottom so they can report in the book what kind of bottom it is. This is so that, we the readers of their book, can know what to expect. I have never heard of any yacht sampling the bottom prior to anchoring. If the hook does not set, pulling it up to see if its fouled and trying again may show the bottom. It is always possible to foul on debris, cables, or even a can on the pointy end!

 

[FF]

"If I were dictator of the world, I would imprison people for saying, “get the largest anchor you can carry.”"

More realistic is deploy the largest anchor that can easily be recovered.

Most folks could use a Herrishoff as an all purpose anchor , great in tall weeds and large rocks (where the watch fobs fail) , but do not have the fwd deck gear to make handling it easy as pie.

There IS price to a bow roller carry .

FF

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
Do'nt know. But I think it will dig in right side up too.

Larry,
Yes, I remember now.

FF,
I like the Herrishoff. The stock is the problem. Too many good anchors are not used because they do'nt fit gracefully on the bow roller. The old yachts had a tiny crane much like one davit arm to lift the anchor aboard where they were stored on deck like a Danforth. One could mount a Herrishoff like this... But getting the stock through the bow roller would still be necessary.

 

[FF]

"The old yachts had a tiny crane much like one davit arm to lift the anchor aboard where they were stored on deck"

"but do not have the fwd deck gear to make handling it easy as pie."

As noted , the price of "progress".

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
I do'nt know where I promised to search the Craig floats for a Rocna but I did today. No Rocna's in Craig Alaska. Saw about 60 Forfjord's, 40 Claw's, 25 Danforths, 20 CQR's, and about 10 Dreadnaught's. I actually saw a good sized Dreadnaught on the fordeck of a Uniflite. Never seen one on a pleasure boat before. I also saw 4 or 5 Navy anchors and about 10 Northill's.

 

[Peter B]

What a memory....!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Peter,
Did'nt take any notes......just a rough guess on what I recall from my walking the floats in Craig yesterday. I revised the numbers a few times as I made the post. It was cool, a bit windy and I only had a light coat on at the time.....thankfully a wool one. If we need an exact count here I can dress warmer or catch some better weather.

 

[Peter B]

Nah....I wouldn't want you to catch cold Eric - your estimate will do fine.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Peter,
I checked w Joe the rep in Seattle and he only had 80lb Sarca's. Later

Re my self designed XYZ fluke tip I have a guy in town here making the plate out of 52__ aluminum. I hope it will be strong enough. I can drill my own holes and make it fit the steel fluke well. So I'm going to be experimenting soon.

 

[Peter B]

Eric, just think of all this experimenting as fillin' in time until you get your Sarca. The only slightly sad thing about that if it comes to pass is you will probably be left feeling, "why bother any more - what could do better than this?" I'm serious actually.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Well Peter,
I have never dragged an anchor and most of my anchors set rather well so I do'nt know how I'd sense that I'd died and gone to heaven but I'm sure I would be very happy w the Super Sarca. I'm at the point where I would probably use it w/o the bolts in the slot. Soon you'll see me disappear as we're getting close to being ready to move onto the boat and head south.

And in the anchor test that Rex did'nt like and took issue w in the DVD they did give the Sarca a blessing for short scope performance and I'm still quite keen on that.

About the DVD. Before I embark on the boat who would like to get the video?
Send me your mailing address and I will mail the DVD to you.

 

[charles]

Manyboats,
Experience for me was my 45 lb CQR brand held in every anchoring condtion but ONE in 25 yrs. This from the Gulf of Mexico around Fla through Canada, the Mississippi River and most southern rivers. And the great lakes.
The one time that it did not was very soupy mud in a bay on the Gulf coast and my Danforth brand held beautifully.
I carried 5 anchors and only used the above as stated, did use a "lunch hook" at the stern a number of times, for lunch or swimming.
My rode setup was 100 ft of 3/8 chain on 300ft 5/8 nylon, NO snubber needed as I always deployed the chain and then, at least, a few feet of nylon.
YMMV

 

[Nomad Willy]

Charles,
I have no experience w the CQR and it seems in this part of the world those that do have them have big ones .....not unlike Claws. And the fishermen here in Alaska that have Forfjords always have big ones too. And I would think with most anchors that have a lot of weight for their fluke area one should have a large size.

But that's great that you posted your very good experience w the CQR to show that it's not necessary to have a "new generation" anchor to have many years of good service. As I walked the floats in Craig looking for a Rocna to report to Marin I did see a lot of old CQRs and also saw a number of anchors considerably older than the CQR in design like the Dreadnoughts and Navy anchors. In Thorne Bay a few days ago I even saw a Navy anchor on a fairly new aluminum boat about 26' long. It's not often you see a Navy anchor on an OB boat. Saw a Dreadnought on the deck of a 27' Uniflite also.

With all the hype about new things you'd think old things were'nt any good. Well in 100 years your CQR will be just as good as it was the first time it was used if it has'nt rusted away. Usually a product (well maintained) is as good as it was when new except for things like the rabbit eared TV. If I had a 36 Chevrolet (my first car ($4.50)) in excellent condition I could drive it everywhere today w only 2 inconveniences. I could'nt drive it in the inside (80mph) lane on the freeway and I'd only get 15mpg. But there would be considerably more than 2 advantages.

Getting back to the CQR .....it seems to me the reason for the hinge is so the fluke tip will bear more weight on the bottom. One of the secrets of the Claw is that 70% of the weight of the whole anchor is presented to the bottom when in the setting position. As one would guess the Claw has a well earned reputation for setting quickly. And w the CQR I do'nt see how it could not set unless it was on a very hard bottom. Apparently you have not encountered such a bottom in 25 years. I suspect the CQR is the oldest anchor that enough people still use to have a meaningful conversation about how it works. The CQR is alive and very well as it is manufactured by quite a number manufacturers so should be available for some time to come. Thank you Charles for sharing your experience and I now have a new respect for the old CQR.

 

[Marin]

I asked a long-time sailor (40 years with the same boat) on our dock why the CQR is so popular with sail boaters. This is a guy who anchors out almost exclusively, and has a CQR. He said it's simple-- the CQR was the first anchor to come out that stowed easily on a bow or pulpit. So sailboaters loved them. He said he's had good luck with his but has had it drag on occasion in soft mud. The hardest things to get it to set in, according to him, are weedy bottoms and hard bottoms. He feels there are better anchor designs out there but his CQR has served him fine over the years and it stows perfectly on his bow.

 

[Anode]

...and it's guaranteed to pinch your finger no matter how you try not to let it.

 

[Nomad Willy]

So Marin the sailboat CQR guy still has his CQR and it sounds like it is'nt in his lazerette. And Marin when you get 25 to 40 years on your miracle hook we'll listen to your dragging stories.

Chip Chip Whine Whine

 

[Anode]

Chip Chip Whine Whine

I'm more of a wine wine guy.

Yesterday we took a trip to the marina where we're going to keep Scout. (yes almost back in the water). I wanted to touch base with the truckers and get a look at the their trailer. While we were there waiting on the guys we walked the docks.
There was a very nice 40 something foot long canoe sterned sailboat. I believe it was a Cheoy Lee, teak decks, butterfly hatches, bronze winches all meticulously maintained. Nestled in the bow pulpit were two CQR sized in the 50# range. I looked at them and thought...'perfect, anything else would be a sacrilege'.
Hanging an XYZ up there would be like putting 22" wheels on '69 Camaro.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Chip,
Looks like you've got a good scope on things.
Wonderful to hear you're about to get back in the water.
We're about to get back "on" the water.
We're running out of space on Willy so I'm going to leave the Claw on the bow because it fits. Got 4 other anchors.

Does anybody know much about the CQR and it's articulated shank?
I notice new CQRs are fairly expensive.
Is there any advantage to the extremely long shank?
Has anybody welded "ears" on the outboard edges of the shank like they do w the Forfjords to enhance soft mud performance?

I'm still watching that DVD from Anchor Right (Sarca) and making more observations. In one "pull" w 4 anchors a Danforth, CQR and Sarca have already more or less set after a pull of about 7' but the 4th anchor was a Kedge and it had'nt even begun to set. I thought the Kedge was the fastest setting anchor in existence Mmmmmmmm And I still think there is no images of a Sarca setting on it's side. They just sorta flip right side up every time.

 

[Marin]

And Marin when you get 25 to 40 years on your miracle hook we'll listen to your dragging stories.

Well, we're a third of the way toward 25 years with our "miracle hook" and no dragging yet. Hope you aren't holding your breath for that first time.

 

[markpierce]

Well, we're a third of the way toward 25 years with our "miracle hook" and no dragging yet. Hope you aren't holding your breath for that first time.

There's always a first time.

 

[Peter B]

I asked a long-time sailor (40 years with the same boat) on our dock why the CQR is so popular with sail boaters. This is a guy who anchors out almost exclusively, and has a CQR. He said it's simple-- the CQR was the first anchor to come out that stowed easily on a bow or pulpit. So sailboaters loved them. He said he's had good luck with his but has had it drag on occasion in soft mud. The hardest things to get it to set in, according to him, are weedy bottoms and hard bottoms. He feels there are better anchor designs out there but his CQR has served him fine over the years and it stows perfectly on his bow.

"Exactly so", as my Dutch friend would say. It is a "remarkable fine anchor" - once it is set - but a dog to set in weedy and firm bottoms, as mentioned above. It was when mine dragged 8 times in a row, in the space of about an hour, just trying to get set for a quick lunch in a well-known weedy bottomed anchorage here in Moreton Bay, that I decided, nice fit on the pulpit or not, it had to go....the rest, as they say, is history I won't bore y'all with again. However, I will admit, CQRs would still outnumber other types of anchor, even here, for the reasons also mentioned above. But the numbers are slowly dwindling.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I'm surprised Peter. I've never see an area where they are the most numerous. Most places I go or have been the Claw is most prevalent.

Still no Rocnas up here Marin. I think it will be a long time till you drag but Mark's right ....could be right around the corner. And no ...I'm breath'in just fine.

 

[Marin]

I would guess--- but have never bothered to wander around counting--- that the numbers of Bruce/Bruce knockoffs and CQRs in our marina are about equal. I see more sailboats with CQRs than Bruces, and more powerboats with Bruces than CQRs. But together, these two types make up the most numerous anchor types in our marina. I see very few Danforth/Danforth types, at least on pulpits. Fortresses are popular as stern anchors, as on our boat.

There is a slowly growing number of rollbar anchors in the marina, Rocna or Manson, which so far as I know are the only two types available in this area. I suspect that might be one reason you don't see any your way--- perhaps nobody carries them and they would be expensive to ship up. I saw a lot of them in a commercial fishing/marine supply store in Steveston, BC near the mouth of the Fraser River last year. All different sizes including some pretty substantial ones that looked to be well over 100 pounds.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
Do'nt remember any other roll bar anchors either. And I'll bet most of the Danforths are below decks. They are lightweight anchors and great for 20' boats.

Today I traded a good Danforth for this old (but not very rusty) Dreadnought. Do'nt know what it weighs yet or what I'll do w it but I just had to have it. Should set OK (I think) in all but the hardest bottoms. It's a bit like the Forfjord and much like the Navy anchor but w a much longer shank than both. I'll bet the biggest downside for this old guy is breaking it out when it's time to go. I can imagine pulling up the rode tight and backing down perhaps more than once in sticky mud to get this guy out. Otherwise it should work well as long as I can get it to set. To know it's really set I'll prolly need to back down and be very attentive to dragging. It should hold better than many but I'm sure it wo'nt hold as a roll bar or Fortress would. It looks like a 1920s style anchor.
Oh I do see one neat trick in the design. The skid or pad at the far end of the anchor will probably impart considerable downward force on the fluke tips. Kinda like a lever. Danforths do it too but w less mechanical advantage. I'm impressed.

 

[Marin]

Marin,
Do'nt remember any other roll bar anchors either. And I'll bet most of the Danforths are below decks. They are lightweight anchors and great for 20' boats.

I've seen some boats here with some pretty big Danforths. Our boat had a Danforth knock-off when we bought it. We gave it to a friend who wanted it for yard art. He weiged it out of curiosity and told us it was about 60 pounds. It was probably a good anchor for the boat prior to our acquiring it as the boat had spent its whole life until then in SFO Bay. Mostly mud bottoms there as I understand it, and the Danforth-type is ideal for that sort of thing. No so useful for up here, though, which is why we got rid of it the day after we got the boat to Bellingham.