Best Snubber for a Krogen 54 w/ Rocna 55kg and 3/8 chain

[Bay Pelican]

You want the line to be small enough to stretch when necessary but not small enough to break.
David

+1

For a Krogen 42, I switched from 3/4" to 5/8" to allow more stretch. Also I suggest you go with 20 ft of line. The longer the line the more stretch. Also I moved the cleat spot over the years as use of the same spot does wear through. Thus the extra few feet was useful.

Also I found that I needed an extra loop on the cleat as the pull was greater than on a dock line.

 

[twistedtree]

What's the rating on a soft shackle you use for Tanglewood size yacht?

Lots and lots. Seriously, I actually don’t know. In a momentary lapse of character, I deferred to the guys at Ropes.com for sizing.

 

[Delfin]

Lots and lots. Seriously, I actually don’t know. In a momentary lapse of character, I deferred to the guys at Ropes.com for sizing.

Not sure what you use T, but for my 1/2" it is 7/16" which has a minimum strength of 21,000#, or a lot more than the 1/2" G4 chain does. Why anyone would use a metal plate, hook or whatever of any design to attach a snub line to chain instead of a soft shackle is beyond me.

 

[dhays]

Not sure what you use T, but for my 1/2" it is 7/16" which has a minimum strength of 21,000#, or a lot more than the 1/2" G4 chain does. Why anyone would use a metal plate, hook or whatever of any design to attach a snub line to chain instead of a soft shackle is beyond me.

In theory, a soft shackle as I make them should have about 4x the strength of the line it is made of. This is because the strain is born by 4 lengths of the line. In practice however, the stopper knot is the weak point. In all testing that I’ve seen, the actual breaking strength of the shackle is a bit more than the breaking strength of the line. Most agree that the strength of the shackle is about 125% of the strength of the line. So in my own mind, I just consider the breaking strength of the shackle to be equal to the breaking strength of the line it is made of. That gives me a 25% safety margin.

There is another knot that can be used for the stopper that will increase the breaking strength significantly, over 200% of line strength, but the button knot that is used is frankly more difficult to tie and it is just easier for me to keep using the diamond knot that is easy to tie, and I am experienced with. If I want something stronger, I just go with a large line. I know I can make a very good diamond knot consistently. That is better than a better knot that I’m not confident with.

The 3/16 (5mm) line that I use has a minimum spliced breaking strength of 6,500 lbs. So the shackles have a breaking strength of around 8,000 lbs but again, I just figure 6,500.

I am getting some 8mm dyneema that will have a breaking strength of 15,300 lbs. That would give a shackle strength of about 19,000 lbs.

1/2” 3 strand has a minimum breaking strength of about 5,700 lbs, so my shackle is much stronger than the line to which it is attached. However, the shackle isn’t as strong as 5/8” line. That is why I am going to make some with 8mm line. It will be stronger than the breaking strength of 3/4” line and almost as much as 1” line.

Bob, if you are interested, I can make you up a couple for you to try on Mahalo.

 

[Delfin]

Here's a couple of images that describe how to tie the knot so that it is a strong point, not a weak point. The knot is also super easy to tie.

 

[dhays]

Here's a couple of images that describe how to tie the knot so that it is a strong point, not a weak point. The knot is also super easy to tie.

I've heard the overhand knot used but had not seen it. I don't suppose you have a photo of the shackle with the knot tightened up do you? It looks easy to make. I think I will give it a try. The only downside I see if that it would take more line and end up with a very large stopper knot.

 

[twistedtree]

Not sure what you use T, but for my 1/2" it is 7/16" which has a minimum strength of 21,000#, or a lot more than the 1/2" G4 chain does. Why anyone would use a metal plate, hook or whatever of any design to attach a snub line to chain instead of a soft shackle is beyond me.

It has also been my understanding that the synthetic rope is much stronger that all the other components involved, hence my deferral on sizing concerns.

 

[sunchaser]

My two pesos worth -
Snubbers, rodes and anchors generate a lot of discussion and emotion for recreational craft. As I wander the docks and talk with the pros in AK I note that all manners and sizes of fishing boats have no snubbers, employ big heavy rusty anchors and use their vessels in the most fearsome of weather. And yes, these guys anchor out, a lot.

So AC, I suggest you do the basics such as a big anchor, stout chain and any type of cited snubber (try a few different ones, they're cheap) you consider easy and deployable - and put some miles under your keel. Leaving the dock can be fun. You and your vessel are very capable.

For the PNW, choosing the weather, bottom type and location to anchor are at the top of the "anchor practices" list IMHO. A decent (there are many) anchoring setup will work quite nicely if the aforementioned are taken into account.

 

[JustBob]

My two pesos worth -
Snubbers, rodes and anchors generate a lot of discussion and emotion for recreational craft. As I wander the docks and talk with the pros in AK I note that all manners and sizes of fishing boats have no snubbers, employ big heavy rusty anchors and use their vessels in the most fearsome of weather. And yes, these guys anchor out, a lot.

Yes, but the difference is many (most?) of these fishing boats have enormous hydraulic "reels" (?) for their anchors. Like the one pictured below. These would be out of place on your average trawler.

People here are discussing snubbers primarily to take the load off their windlass, which is not designed for abuse like their AK brethren. Second benefit seems to be some noise reduction.

 

[Fletcher500]

Considering a single length of 1/2 in. Line attached to the chain with a rolling hitch knot to a Sampson post just aft of the windlass. Anyone ever have any issues with the rolling hitch coming through the bow roller and getting bound up?

 

[Delfin]

I've heard the overhand knot used but had not seen it. I don't suppose you have a photo of the shackle with the knot tightened up do you? It looks easy to make. I think I will give it a try. The only downside I see if that it would take more line and end up with a very large stopper knot.

My knots end up looking a bit like the Elephant Man's head, but from a functionality standpoint, they work fine, and this knot is self tightening, unlike some other options.

 

[Monk38]

3/8 BBB - Rocna 55lb on Monk36

Interesting thread.

Running with 3/8 BBB with no swivel and a Rocna 55lb hooked to the earth’s mantel on a Monk38.

Can we agree that the chain is sufficiently strong?

 

[Delfin]

Interesting thread.

Running with 3/8 BBB with no swivel and a Rocna 55lb hooked to the earth’s mantel on a Monk38.

Can we agree that the chain is sufficiently strong?

Of course not. There can be no agreement on anchoring issues. It was part of what you agreed to when you created an account on TF, explained in the fine print:

You agree to argue endlessly on any issue related to anchoring, taking objection to any opinion, no matter how sensible or benign.

 

[JustBob]

Of course not. There can be no agreement on anchoring issues. It was part of what you agreed to when you created an account on TF, explained in the fine print:

You agree to argue endlessly on any issue related to anchoring, taking objection to any opinion, no matter how sensible or benign.

That's telling him! What a muckracker!

 

[sunchaser]

Yes, but the difference is many (most?) of these fishing boats have enormous hydraulic "reels" (?) for their anchors. Like the one pictured below. These would be out of place on your average trawler.

People here are discussing snubbers primarily to take the load off their windlass, which is not designed for abuse like their AK brethren. Second benefit seems to be some noise reduction.

Larger commercial craft often have robust chain stoppers not integral to the reel. These chain stoppers can be ropes, chains or bolts to accomplish the task of keeping undue strain off the reel setup. But some do nothing and let the reel take the beating if the deck attachment is stout enough.

But as Delfin notes, anchor and rode talk is not like death and taxes, it is more serious. I duly accept that.

 

[dhays]

My knots end up looking a bit like the Elephant Man's head, but from a functionality standpoint, they work fine, and this knot is self tightening, unlike some other options.

Thanks. I will definitely try the overhand knot.


Typically for a bury splice with dyneema, you would use at least 10 x the diameter of the line for the bury length. In this application, since the loops at the end aren't really supporting a load, just keeping the knot closed, I would imagine you could use less of a bury.

 

[dhays]

Considering a single length of 1/2 in. Line attached to the chain with a rolling hitch knot to a Sampson post just aft of the windlass. Anyone ever have any issues with the rolling hitch coming through the bow roller and getting bound up?

I've never had that problem. I've switched to using an icicle hitch instead of the rolling hitch most of the time. It is a tad more time consuming to tie but there is no way it will come undone.

 

[Delfin]

Thanks. I will definitely try the overhand knot.


Typically for a bury splice with dyneema, you would use at least 10 x the diameter of the line for the bury length. In this application, since the loops at the end aren't really supporting a load, just keeping the knot closed, I would imagine you could use less of a bury.

True, I just bury enough so that the knot is composed entirely of doubled line. I think the main advantages of this knot is the self tightening aspect of it and the fact that it is very easy to make up.

 

[Fletcher500]

I've never had that problem. I've switched to using an icicle hitch instead of the rolling hitch most of the time. It is a tad more time consuming to tie but there is no way it will come undone.

Thanks Dave. Previous boat had a chain stop mounted on deck. Bought a fancy chain grab for the new boat and tried it this past weekend, and didn’t care for it. It can get very crowded in SoCal anchorages in the Summer, so a quick exit is sometimes required. Figured using a line directly to the chain as you initially called out would be best to remove rapidly. Longer term anchoring in less crowded areas I can always use a more secure bridal.

 

[dhays]

Thanks Dave. Previous boat had a chain stop mounted on deck. Bought a fancy chain grab for the new boat and tried it this past weekend, and didn’t care for it. It can get very crowded in SoCal anchorages in the Summer, so a quick exit is sometimes required. Figured using a line directly to the chain as you initially called out would be best to remove rapidly. Longer term anchoring in less crowded areas I can always use a more secure bridal.

Sounds good. FWIW, I’ve never had an issue with the rolling hitch coming loose on me.

 

[foreverunderway]

We use a one inch nylon snub line about 30' long with a thimble in an eye splice on the end that has a chain hook shackled to it and secure the other end to a bow cleat, through a chock, not the anchor roller. We use firehose for chafe.
With a 55kg anchor, 3/8" chain is a serious mismatch if you anchor regularly. Your chain hasn't enough weight and you are putting undue stress on your snub and relying on your anchor only to hold you. If your snub were to break, obviously in less than ideal conditions, your chain would probably break too. The weight of the chain, not its strength, is what safe anchoring relies on.
I will not tie my snub to the chain for one very simple reason. If you need to get your gear up in a hurry, on some dark and stormy night, you are going to have to untie or cut that knot completely away before your chain will go through the gypsy. Under extremely adverse conditions, this could be a real problem. The chain hook slides easily off the chain at the roller or, if your roller is big enough, you can bring it inboard on the chain and slide it off. Just a second or two!
We have a 53', 77000# boat and have moved up to ½" chain. Our 88# Rocna is a perfect match for this chain, The boat rides much better at anchor and we sleep much more securely since we've made the change.

 

[caltexflanc]

I don't know anything about best but this is my set up on Klee Wyck.
The tails from the chain grabber to the loops are each 30 feet and are secured to the bollards (6 foot aft of bow both port and starboard) in the background of photo after attachment to the chain. The chain travels thru deck hause pipe and is coupled to 145# Forfjord (#12)on a 55K#, 48' boat. So far, so good, but never really been put to a serious test while in my hands.
It can be a bit testy getting the grabber coupled to the chain while hanging off the bow in any kind of seas......

This the exact set up we used with great success in literally hundreds of anchorings. I did try to avoid choosing an anchorage that was exposed to a lot of unprotected fetch so attaching and detaching were simple, and given our pulpit design never had to hang off the bow to do so anyway. It passed many serious tests in sustained gale force and more winds.

 

[dhays]

We use a one inch nylon snub line about 30' long with a thimble in an eye splice on the end that has a chain hook shackled to it and secure the other end to a bow cleat, through a chock, not the anchor roller. We use firehose for chafe.

Have you considered just splicing the chain hook directly on the 1” line? It would get rid of the eye and shackle. A splice around the eye would be stronger than to a chain hook, but probably not by a lot. When the line gets chaffed at the chain hook, cut it and resplice.

 

[foreverunderway]

Have you considered just splicing the chain hook directly on the 1” line? It would get rid of the eye and shackle. A splice around the eye would be stronger than to a chain hook, but probably not by a lot. When the line gets chaffed at the chain hook, cut it and resplice.

Why in the world would I want to introduce a chafe point? Where is the value in elimiating the shackle and thimble only to have the snub line chafe through at a most inconvenient time? Thimbles were invented to reduce chafe between a line and what it is attached to.

 

[dhays]

Why in the world would I want to introduce a chafe point? Where is the value in elimiating the shackle and thimble only to have the snub line chafe through at a most inconvenient time? Thimbles were invented to reduce chafe between a line and what it is attached to.

You are correct or course, but it does allow to reduce the number of hard bits banging into stuff.

 

[foreverunderway]

You are correct or course, but it does allow to reduce the number of hard bits banging into stuff.

Our "hard bits" have never touched the boat until after they are disconnected from the chain. Then one need only exercise due care to ensure that they don't do any damage.
If that isn't possible because of your bow's shape or anchoring system, then how about covering the shackle with some chafing gear, like a bit of hose or canvas sewn onto it?

 

[dhays]

Our "hard bits" have never touched the boat until after they are disconnected from the chain. Then one need only exercise due care to ensure that they don't do any damage.
If that isn't possible because of your bow's shape or anchoring system, then how about covering the shackle with some chafing gear, like a bit of hose or canvas sewn onto it?

I’ve actually done that in two applications. The first was on my permanent dock lines where I used a soft shackles to attach the eye of a 3 strand line (with a thimble) to the dock cleats. I sewed on a webbing cover over the shackle. It provides chaffe protection as well as additional UV protection. The other place was on a dyneema dog bone that I have used to wrap around the chain and then attach my bridle to it with a soft shackle.

I wasn’t suggesting there was anything wrong with using a splice eye with thimble and a shackle, I was just curious if you had considered the other option. You had, and rejected it for good reasons.

 

[Peter B]

Larger commercial craft often have robust chain stoppers not integral to the reel. These chain stoppers can be ropes, chains or bolts to accomplish the task of keeping undue strain off the reel setup. But some do nothing and let the reel take the beating if the deck attachment is stout enough.

But as Delfin notes, anchor and rode talk is not like death and taxes, it is more serious. I duly accept that.

I think the point sunchaser is making, and with which I agree, is that this issue is always subject to over-thinking, and a lot of navel gazing - way more that it deserves really. Having a decent anchor, appropriate rode, and some sort of snubber to take the strain at anchor off the winch is the guts of it.

Like the commercial guys sunchaser refers to, just use something that does the business. It is not rocket science. My snubber is probably shorter than most would use, and too thick to have enough stretch by most standards, but it will never break, and when attached to the chain with a stout chain-hook, when fully deployed it is just under the water surface, allowing a free loop to fall behind it, and never comes off with the chain weight on it. However when retrieved it falls off the chain just before it comes in over the roller, so won't jam then system in an emergency up-anchor, as I have seen others have happen. Most importantly it is simple and it works..!

However, as Delfin said, endless debate around the subject appears mandatory, so have at it by all means. However, I can truthfully say, my snubber is the thing about our boat I probably lose the least sleep over. Just sayin'

 

[dhays]

After the discussion about creating a stronger soft shackle, I finally broke down and learned to tie the Brion Toss Button knot to use on a shackle. I’m slow, but after a couple hours sitting in a chair with some line watching television, I got it down. I then wondered if the shackle design that I like the best (the “better soft shackle from the L-36.com website) could be adapted to use the button knot.

After a couple attempts, I created one that I like. While I haven’t tested it, it should be about as strong as the “stronger soft shackle” that was developed. That is about 230% the line breaking strength. The 3/16” dyneema I am using has a breaking strength of 6,400 lbs. So the shackle should have better than a 14,000 lbs breaking strength. I like to be conservative so I would count on it being 2x the strength of the line, or 12,800 lbs.

BTW, this is not as strong as the overhand knot as was posted by (Delfin?). That, iirc has a breaking strength of about 240% of line strength. However, I like how this shackle works and it looks a little better.

 

[Simi 60]

Like the commercial guys sunchaser refers to, just use something that does the business. It is not rocket science. My snubber is probably shorter than most would use, and too thick to have enough stretch by most standards, but it will never break, and when attached to the chain with a stout chain-hook, when fully deployed it is just under the water surface, allowing a free loop to fall behind it, and never comes off with the chain weight on it. However when retrieved it falls off the chain just before it comes in over the roller, so won't jam then system in an emergency up-anchor, as I have seen others have happen. Most importantly it is simple and it works..!

Same here.