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Old 12-27-2014, 07:42 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelex View Post
In very soft mud Fortress themselves recommend a different setting technique for their anchors. The instructions can be found in the "Safe Anchoring Guide" which can be downloaded here:

Fortress Anchors – The World's Best Anchors! – Safe Anchoring Guide

It is worth reading even if you do not have a Fortress as is has some good general advice.
" Some soft mud bottoms have a sticky consistency which makes it difficult to set an anchor. If soft mud setting problems occur, try setting the anchor initially at very short scope, for example 2:1. Then, increase the scope to at least 5:1"
Yes, that's pretty much how I set my Super Sarca actually. It's a technique which seems to suit it also, and then it really just sets itself with the boat drift, then I give it a tweak, and let out the overnight length of 3:1 or 5:1 as required. Having a chain counter certainly helps.
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:29 AM   #82
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Stir? Why not ....
Ranger,
You say "we've got a lot of mud around here". I think mud is the most common bottom in the world. Not in Florida though ... right?

There have been other tests in/on mud. And like the Fortress test the Rocna did very poorly in at least one test. But I don't recall it turning up-side down. It would make sense to deploy a good mud anchor first and use something else if that didn't go well. That's the ideal anchor .... two ready to go and perhaps another. Four would probably cover most anything.

I set myself up as basically a one anchor guy but changed my mind thinking the flexibility of what I had before is best.

I should have emphasized soft mud.

Don't know if it's the most common bottom; I think the slimey bottom is not... but it's what we often deal with here.

Hence my current lack of interest in the idea of an "all-round" anchor. Partly because it seems to me that a design optimized for one substrate might not work well in dissimilar substrates.

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Old 12-27-2014, 08:38 AM   #83
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Here in NE Florida, most of my anchoring has been in hard sand. My last boat I had a Fortress FX-11 and never had any issues. Now I have a 60lb CQR with an all chain rode but I still carry a 45lb Danforth. I figure between the two of them I can cover most situations that I'll encounter. My father and brother boat on the upper Chesapeake Bay and up there we never used any anchor but Danforth types.
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:16 AM   #84
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Yes, that's pretty much how I set my Super Sarca actually. It's a technique which seems to suit it also, and then it really just sets itself with the boat drift, then I give it a tweak, and let out the overnight length of 3:1 or 5:1 as required. Having a chain counter certainly helps.
New generation anchors are very forgiving of setting technique. In a reasonable substrate almost anything works providing the scope is adequate. It is only in difficult terrain where the setting technique becomes critical.

A lot of skippers give the rode a tweak at about 2:1 to straighten out the chain. You need to be careful putting any real force on the anchor at these short scopes. If the force is enough to straighten out the catenary the anchor is very likely to slide backwards. Very few anchors will set at 2:1 without the benefit of catenary.

In many cases this is not critical, but the anchor sliding backwards increases the chances of the anchor picking up debris like weed and isolated rocks or manmade rubbish.

Experienced boats know how much force can be applied at these very short scopes to prevent the anchor sliding backwards, but as a general rule especially for beginners, waiting until around 3:1 before applying any force is safer.

The Fortress technique for very soft substrates is for a very different reason. In very soft substrates the chain can sink below the level of the fluke. Anchors like the Fortress and Danforth can fail to "open" in these circumstances. The fluke has to hinge backwards at 32° or 45°. So the setting technique is designed to slide the anchor backwards at 2:1 to open up the fluke to the correct angle. On most other anchors the fluke is fixed at the correct angle so does not have to open.

At the end of the day any technique that works is fine. It is worth some experimentation in difficult substrates to find what works best.

Don't forget the bow roller height when applying these ratios.
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by manyboats
I think it would be safe to say "most anchors work well on most bottoms".

But also most here seem to think they need to be rigged for the mother of all storms. Just not so IMO. Especially w GPS anchor alarms. If an anchor drags just get up and put it back to let it drag some more. You're not going to die. At least if some good sense and good seamanship is employed.

Once I was holding fine in a 50 knot gale but the Krogen in front of me dragged down on us and I had to go out on deck in the dark and wind and rain and move up ahead of him because he just didn't. So you (like me) may have to reset even if you have the #1 anchor in your favorite test on a 10-1 scope w a heavy chain rode.

We use all kinds of anchors w different rodes and scopes and I don't recall anyone actually experiencing anything but inconvenience from a storm or whatever. Anyone's notion that you've got to have this anchor or that to survive is rubbish.

That, Eric, is one of the best statements on anchoring I've seen. Need I say more..?

No I won't…except to ask those more used than I am to using the GPS anchor watch, what sort of distance radius do you find works best, so as to not be too far, yet not be false alarming all the time..?
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Old 12-27-2014, 11:12 AM   #86
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Storms at anchor don't often get filmed, but this video is worth watching to give you some idea.
This was not a named storm, just a microburst that hit a popular anchorage in Europe.

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Old 12-27-2014, 11:38 AM   #87
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That video is scary. I didn't need to see that.
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Old 12-27-2014, 12:42 PM   #88
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That video is scary. I didn't need to see that.

Note that most of the boats in the harbor are still on their anchors. I wonder how many were Fortress?
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:04 PM   #89
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Fortress have a recommendation for soft mud and a Fortress works in soft mud. The issue really is what else works in soft mud and this seems to be totally ignored, or there is a deathly silence. None of the champions of other anchors or the anchor makers put their hands up and say 'ours works in soft mud but you need to do this to enjoy a reliable hold'.

Being repetitive, based on current data - only the Fortress (at 45 degrees) and to a lessor extent Danforth and Fortress (set at 32 degrees) work in soft mud - but getting that simple message across is an uphill struggle. Moreover having anchor makers and the champions of specific designs admitting the weakness looks to be impossible.

edit Comanche picked up 20 nm overnight but are still 17nm behind with Wild Oats around 60nm from the finish. It looks that WO will cross the finish at between 9pm and midnight TF time. WO could fall into a hole in Storm Bay. Loyal reported to have hit something in the water, I do not think it was a problem of delimitation, but other yachts have retired through sail or gear damage which does imply it was not man enough for the job. Given the preparation and costs involved mainsails should not tear, especially as the conditions have not been that bad. close edit
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #90
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At last! A solution to unset anchors of design unsuited to the underwater surface.
And it`s so simple. All boats shall be mandated to carry a load of at least 2 tons of an underwater surface which enables their anchor to achieve maximum hold. The introduced material is dumped overboard exactly where the anchor will be set. The the anchor is lowered with great precision onto the material, using image enhancement.
Using just one anchor, a perfect set, on a perfect surface, every time. For as long as the load lasts.
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:47 PM   #91
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I lived and boated on the East Coast for over thirty years. Mostly gunk holing with a good deal of it on the muddy tributaries of the Chesapeake. For some of those years as live aboard (not at a dock)6 months out of the year. I did not use a Fortress anchor and like Nigel Calder I did not miss it nor did I feel the need for it. There were numerous typical thunderstorms with their veering high winds. The only times I dragged were once on Barnegat bay when a Danforth encountered a 180 degree wind shift with moderate gusts causing a complete break away with no reset a clogged anchor and once at Annapolis inner harbor on a Bruce in a thunder storm. Neither incident was catastrophic. As said here by others I think many anchors can be set in mud provided proper seamanship and for most anchors the Danforth excepted a constant hall in or back down as done by this test is probably not the way to do it. the Calder cup of tea method is more like my personal experience suggests. Because of my experience I doubt the full relevance of the Fortress test regarding the poor performance of the Spade types. I have no argument with the good performance of a Danforth type in mud and sand but I and most knowledgeable boaters have known that and the foibles of the type for very many years. With my limited engineering ability I probably could design a test to embarrass the Fortress by cherry picking the bottom and method of setting. In the end I think the Spade type or a variation of it is in the ascendancy among anchors and the Fortress test will not change that, though it might buy them a little bigger piece of the market. I just received three more boating magazines in the mail and surely there will be few if any pictures of Fortress anchors on the many boats and very many new Gen spade types surely something the people at Fortress must have also noticed over that last few years. I do think the Fortress makes a fair secondary anchor to set from a dinghy and store below but not one to sit out on the bow pulpit of boats that anchor in varied and sometimes unknown bottoms..
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:57 PM   #92
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Here is an anchor test in mud made in 06 when the Rocna was a new thing.

The best performers were XYZ, SARCA, Fortress, HydroBubble, Super Max and Bulwagga.

From a group of 12 anchors only one or two did more poorly than the Rocna. I was impressed w the Davis but not sure if I've ever seen one.
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:37 PM   #93
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One test produces data...not ultimate proof of anything.

Shouldn't be ignored....but shouldn't be chiseled in stone either...

This one really didn't prove much more than any experienced cruiser either didn't know or could guess.
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:49 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Here is an anchor test in mud made in 06 when the Rocna was a new thing.

The best performers were XYZ, SARCA, Fortress, HydroBubble, Super Max and Bulwagga.

From a group of 12 anchors only one or two did more poorly than the Rocna. I was impressed w the Davis but not sure if I've ever seen one.


I'm not sure what the correlation means but most of the anchors that did well have either disappeared or are very niche, Fortress excepted. And of the latter - they must be doing something right even if they are not on a bow roller near you, they have sold over 500,000 units.
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:20 PM   #95
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The XYZ is available on-line, SARCA is available in Oz, Fortress at WM, HydroBubble, Super Max and Bulwagga .... I don't know. But if you have any faith in Practical Sailor their performance has been tested in some mud bottom somewhere. I don't think the XYZ tested in this test is available now. It was the first of a number of XYZ's. Here is a good picture of it. It's performance in mud is spectacular but won't usually set in anything else.
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:41 PM   #96
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The XYZ is available on-line, SARCA is available in Oz, Fortress at WM, HydroBubble, Super Max and Bulwagga .... I don't know. But if you have any faith in Practical Sailor their performance has been tested in some mud bottom somewhere. I don't think the XYZ tested in this test is available now. It was the first of a number of XYZ's. Here is a good picture of it. It's performance in mud is spectacular but won't usually set in anything else.
I believe the Super Max is still made, in America, and thus available, the Hydrobubble and Bulwagga I believe are not available.
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:09 PM   #97
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I think one of the big points made here by others is as there is no one type of boat to take to sea there is no one anchor to use. Also as with boats it is more often important who uses them and how they are used than who designed and built the product. If I had to use a common anchor type by drawing straws I probably would do fine in the locations I usually pick to anchor in so long as I understood the nature of the anchor and how best to use it.
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:39 PM   #98
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The issue really is what else works in soft mud and this seems to be totally ignored, or there is a deathly silence. None of the champions of other anchors or the anchor makers put their hands up and say 'ours works in soft mud but you need to do this to enjoy a reliable hold'.
We've used our rollbar anchor in very soft mud a few times with 100% success. I have no idea how these mud bottoms compares with the mud bottom used in the Fortress test, but they were the same locations where our Bruce failed to hold on previous occasions. We used the same deployment and setting processes we use everywhere else. The rollbar anchor held where the Bruce didn't. How our Fortress would have fared is unknown; since the rollbar anchor always performed as advertised we had no reason to try the Fortress.
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Old 12-27-2014, 11:30 PM   #99
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We've used our rollbar anchor in very soft mud a few times with 100% success. I have no idea how these mud bottoms compares with the mud bottom used in the Fortress test, but they were the same locations where our Bruce failed to hold on previous occasions. We used the same deployment and setting processes we use everywhere else. The rollbar anchor held where the Bruce didn't. How our Fortress would have fared is unknown; since the rollbar anchor always performed as advertised we had no reason to try the Fortress.
Right and it fits on your bow looks good cleans easily needs no adjustment of fluke angle for different bottoms and will set and hold where a Fortress will not. And that is why so many spade type anchors are being sold and are highly visible in boating magazines, and probably why Fortress needed a new INDEPENDENT anchor test.
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Old 12-27-2014, 11:31 PM   #100
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Marin you forgot to mention that the roll bar anchor of yours is quite a bit heavier than the old Claw you replaced it with. And that that Claw was undersized for your boat. Not much undersized probably as my new Claw for Willy ... a boat half the size of your GB 36 is the same size as your old Claw that you criticize so much.

Djbanji,
I'm disappointed the Bulwagga is no more. I think I could have used one on Willy. Nowdays I'm rather busy think'in about my mods for the Manson Supreme.
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